Pinto Upgrades

[Purple Frog]

Background: Some may know I am a member of the FSRAC. There has been some discussion based on member letters submitted about boosting Pinto power.
The club is always seeking to discover reasons for any drop in participation. There is some thought that pinto powered FC cars have dropped out because of non-equitable power versus the Zetec.
Six years ago I believe we had the power as equitable as possible between the Zetec and a "national" Pinto. Over time, with many Zetecs involved and cycling through rebuilds, there has been a slow evolution due to experience within the engine builder community (legal blueprinting) so as the zetec power has slowly creeped up about 6 to 7 HP.
The engine builders I have talked with now say the power from a newer Zetec is outside the reach of even the best legal Pinto.
Just making up numbers... the best pinto is around 149, vs. a zetec at 155. YMMV

Problem: Is there really a problem? Do Pinto owners care? Would they come out more if given a HP increase? For this thread let's say a HP increase for the Pinto would be a good thing.

Solution: I have done some research with pro engine builders.
The easiest solution offered so far has two parts.
1. Allow the larger Weber. The current allowed Weber venturis are actually a restrictor to getting any more out of the engine. The larger Weber is not to expensive in the big scheme of things. And it is a bolt-on change.
2. Allow an increase in compression of about 1 point. Most pinto guys are already burning ~110 octane racing fuel, which is well within the needs of the compression boost. A compression boost may make running 100 octane Av-gas problematic.

Discussion:
I am hoping for a polite rational discussion on the merits of such a proposal. I hope not to see a re-hash of battles long ago fought. I also don't see a need to get into a debate about "the system". I'm hoping folks don't flood the SCCA letter system with a lot of letters prematurely, for this is just an informal, non-official inquiry of member thoughts.

Goal: I hope to maybe discover if this is a project worth pursuing, or just a fart in the wind.

Your civil discussion is appreciated in advance.

[S Lathrop]

Put a price on these changes.

How much is a new carb and what will the allowable modifications add to that cost?

Increasing the compression ratio can be done with a new head gasket or are we talking about mackining the block or head?

I don't see a problem with increasing the Pinto power but cost will be an issue. If we are talking less than $500 it will probably fly and have the intended purpose of putting cars back on the track. If it gets more than a set of tires then it may further reduce numbers.

[LAJ]

Hi Frog
Just some thoughts:
Overall car weight has gone up as well over the years.I think the pinto car owners might not run the pro series but would like to feel they are at least in the same class as the Zetecs.
The Pinto needs torque as well as horse power to get out of the corners like the Zetecs. This means the only fix is Cam related and I believe that there might be a few (mild) aftermarket cams that will work.This 2 could be an easy fix. This should only cost a few hundred dollars similar to the last cam change.
Lee

[2BWise]

Put a price on these changes.

How much is a new carb and what will the allowable modifications add to that cost?

Increasing the compression ratio can be done with a new head gasket or are we talking about mackining the block or head?

I don't see a problem with increasing the Pinto power but cost will be an issue. If we are talking less than $500 it will probably fly and have the intended purpose of putting cars back on the track. If it gets more than a set of tires then it may further reduce numbers.

Steve, I am very much in agreement with you that cost and effort play a big part here. A stock Weber from the Pegasus catalog is $430, but a prepped version is another $200 more. Plus, some prepped versions will be better than others making the divide between the stock part and the more expensive part even larger. A carb swap is a simple update for owners and requires very little effort. Using a standard part that is a bolt on update, I think, would not cause much of a stir providing availability is high.

Something along the lines of a compression ratio change will require a lot more work if even more the same gain assuming it requires machine work. This is a change that I personally would not like to make as it will require pulling the entire engine apart to update it, and while you're at it you might as well fresh the entire motor, which will really drive the cost up. It will be a relatively simple change once it's apart, so could be done during the process of a scheduled rebuild, but the simplicity of the carb change is just so much more appealling.

[old 59]

PF,

Which Weber carb are you suggesting to change to?

[EYERACE]

Curtis Farley would tell you that some dynos will run out different numbers than others........so is it a 149 Pinto or a 154 Pinto?

[RSS]

I don't think it matters about the exact Numbers the pecking order is.

Blueprinted Zetec
National Pinto
Crate Zetec
Regional Pinto

[kea]

The problem isn't with the Pinto, it's with the increase on the side of the Zetec's.
Parts replacement from stock parts, blue-print, etc.
Have the Zetec's carry some more weight.
Why should the Pinto's be required to purchase parts again.
Cost less for everyone !

[Numbskull XIV]

I think between a bolt on carb change and a change in the minimum weights, the zetec and the pinto can be even again. Since there are a lot of pinto guys on the weight limit already, I would suggest raising the zetec's min weight by 50lbs along with the carb change. It would be really nice to have an opportunity to race in the pro series and not have a change cars to be competitive.

Just my 2 cents,

Jon Updegrove
RF97 Van Diemen FC

[Rick Kirchner]

the new cam in the aluminum head? and a slightly bigger cam in the steel head? That way guys with the new cams can sell them to guys with the aluminum heads and get an even hotter cam.

[blackbmwk1200r]

Definitely would affect when we get back to racing again. Now sitting on the fence with a Pinto that has some life left in it but not going to be competitive with Zetecs. Have considered options including Zetec conversion but funds to do so keep getting redirected to other interests. I would prefer a parity solution that cost more and included engine rebuild but also involved a strategy to increase Pinto engine longevity. If ... such a solution exists?

[SSR Engineering]

Fuel injection for the Pinto motor?

[Phil Creighton]

Why not just a smaller restrictor and weight for the Zetec rather than all the Pintos having to upgrade (again)
Phil

[ccoffin]

Is there a timetable for how quickly a change could be implemented?

[DaveW]

I think between a bolt on carb change and a change in the minimum weights, the zetec and the pinto can be even again. Since there are a lot of pinto guys on the weight limit already, I would suggest raising the zetec's min weight by 50lbs along with the carb change. It would be really nice to have an opportunity to race in the pro series and not have a change cars to be competitive.

Just my 2 cents,

Jon Updegrove
RF97 Van Diemen FC

I already have close to 50 lb of stuff we added to my car to make weight (1210 for the F2KCS). Another 50 would be REALLY difficult to add. I think the minimum should be 1170 !

[RobLav]

1175 for Pinto, like it used to be.

Last year, I proposed the new cam in aluminum head and request shot down.

[racerdad2]

Pinto 'push-to-pass' NOX button ! seriously... bigger carb &/or restictor-weight on zetecs.

[Steve Demeter]

Don't forget that merely bolting on a bigger carb, raising the compression or adding a bigger cam will only help in the long run when all the other involved areas are updated to take advantage of it.

If one makes the new carb big enough to be a straight bolt on change and equal the Ztec, then how long before someone optimizes the rest of a Pinto to make it more than a Ztec.

It can be a slippery slope if one is not careful.

I say look at a slightly tweaked map for the Ztec. Then the cost is minimal to all involved, if one wants to make any change at all.

and what about long rod Pintos and improved valve springs. At least allow doubles to allow higher revs with the fat cam. Just kidding on the last point.

[racerdad2]

Re-map the zetecs.... once, again, the simple solution is the easiest & cheapest !

[Purple Frog]

I'm impressed. I went away for 10 hours and the conversation stayed civil.

Sportsfans, really... have you ever met racers that want to give up power? Ain't going to happen. No one will rule to remap the zetecs, nor back them down. And why should we? They are now the strong base in the class, and doing the most racing. The zetec is the sensible engine to have. I'm just trying to offer a low bucks upgrade for the guy that races three of four times a year.

Adding weight to the zetecs is also not going to happen. Most of the competitive zetecs are already carrying insane ballast. (check with DaveW or Tim Minor, etc.) It would be downright unsafe.

Letting the pintos run at 1175 as they did 15 years ago would be nice... but really... how many club guys can get down to that weight, when the average club guy weighs north of 180. Besides, trick wheels, aluminum hats, new super thin bodywork, and all the other things it takes to lighten a club car costs a boatload more than what i'm proposing.

The carb I was talking about would be ~$550. The compression might be achieved by just allowing a thinner head gasket. I have changed head gaskets on a pinto in the car in under an hour. This is like a 50 year old tractor motor, not hi-tech rocket science.

Maybe shave the head. If so, when you reassemble, one would need to check the cam timing, or not. We made the adjustable cam pulley legal on the pinto years ago to make that easier.

Another thought is to allow pintos to go .040 over in bore. Saves a lot of old blocks from being sleeved, and does up the compression a bit.

We could spec the allowable compression, and let the owner chose how he/she gets there. Over bore, cut head, thin head gasket, or combinations thereof.

Years ago I was proposing the longer rods with the short racing pistons, mainly to extend ring life and get some torque. While a nice idea, that drives everyone into expensive rebuilds thay may not currently need.

OK... back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[cooleyjb]

Wait.

There is the cheap choice of remapping/restrictor the Zetec or the expensive keep up with the Joness upgrade the pinto

Are you kidding me. This is the stupidest discussion ever. Do it the cheap and easy way that won't create more barriers to people getting their cars back out there.

If this is the crap that comes out of the fsrac then open wheel in scca is doomed.

The fsrac should be embarrassed to put forth the idea that the pinto racers should look into spending 1000+ dollars at a minimum to keep up with the creeping power of the zetecs.

Mike first you go the zetecs have creeped up in power and then you say they shouldn't have to give up that extra power that has creeped in. They aren't giving up power that they are supposed to have. The zetecs are just coming back to where they are supposed to be.

This is a no brainer. Fix the problem with the Zetec power creep.

[Purple Frog]

"If this is the crap that comes out of the fsrac then open wheel in scca is doomed.

The fsrac should be embarrassed to put forth the idea that the pinto racers should look into spending 1000+ dollars at a minimum to keep up with the creeping power of the zetecs. "

Let's be clear about this...The ideas I presented do not originate from FSRAC. They are just my ideas. I was throwing out some thoughts for discussion. So don't go off attacking FSRAC, attack me. And... for the record, i'm not embarrassed to throw those ideas out for discussion.

But, that said, there have been letters submitted asking for pinto upgrades.

[Purple Frog]

In the 1990s as the pinto HP progressed from 135 to 142 to 145 the hordes were not storming the gates demanding to go back to 135.

Progress happens in racing. The longer an engine is available for development the more it improves. It happened with the pinto, it is happening with the zetec.

I didn't realize that the possibility of allowing some inexpensive power gains was such a contentious issue for racers.

The audience that seems receptive to ideas like this are folks that have late model chassis such as late 90's VDs and Carbirs with pinto power. The folks that will buy a new set of tires each weekend, and want to run in Majors/Runoffs without worrying about getting lapped, but really don't want to spend $15K or so upgrading to a zetec. That is probably the target audience.

[FASTDAD]

I like what I hear about Pinto upgrades. My situation is somewhat different in that I'm in the middle of a move (moving suxs) and our car and shop are in limbo. ( a million pieces) Anyhow the thought of building up the pinto with a few upgrades to make it faster & more competitive with Zetecs is just what is needed. Horse power creep is a natural evolution of great minds doing great things within the rules. It would be fun to build this up and at least make some guys really worry about getting whipped by a TRACTOR engine! With some upgrades and a hand massage with some aero, who knows the TRACTOR engine can win again! Imagine, a Pinto winning the Runoffs. WOW!

[blackbmwk1200r]

With a pinto powered 01 Mygale I'm definitely onboard with the idea of a power increase that doesn't require replacement with Zetec power. Along with the longer rods and short racing pistons. I'm not sure of the reasons to not do that in the past. Nonetheless, are the reasons still relevant today.

That said I'm curious about the expectations of power creep with the Fit engine and how that will affect participation in that class.

[stonebridge20]

If you want the Pinto guys to pay for the Zetec Hp "creep" then have the Pinto guys

buy .5mm smaller restrictors for the Zetec guys and call it a day.

[Modo]

I'm with Cooley, I'll bet the current Zetecs don't have the same firmware and perhaps restricter that Bob Wright, Sandy, Kev, and maybe Tim figured out back 05-07 ............ going Esslinger and dual Homol for the tail goose, I will!!!!! Effective immediately, the Zetec is no longer legal in SCCA FC class Majors/Runoffs racing!! Yea, we'll make up rules, I'm running a 2L i 4 valves per Toyota Buckooh!! ......

Just kidding Mike, I'm just in a keep your license as a measure of health mode now (mental-physical-mechanical), don't care what uzz guyz (Queens, USA LOL) do!!! .....

remember the showroom stockers trick, go buy 10 factory cams from a dealer and using a dyno, use the best one .......... way out of line for the spirit of the competition ...... buy-showroom-run-fun ......

"Keystroke Horsepower", can't resist, nope, can't resist!!!!! or should we call it "Mission Creep", another popular term being tossed around lately ........

[Phil Creighton]

Mike
Forget the Pro Series cars - they are going to do whatever they feel like doing. Why should every Pinto out there make the change no matter how many races they do out there. We once calculated that there were about 1000 FC cars out there somewhere and while it was always supposed to be a restricted engine class (chassis development free within the specs) it was not supposed to be about the engine HP. Since most of the cars are Pinto - bring the Zetec back via map or restrictor. Remember the old Club map? I don't buy the argument that zetec guys don't want to give up HP - they will if they get a good field of Club cars to race against.
Maybe its because we've been dealing with Pro Racing endurance cars with 'subjective' BOP adjustments that I have come to appreciate the SCCA system a bit more!

Phil

[DaveW]

The problem I have with massaging the Pinto to make it equal to the Zetec is the same one that has annoyed most Pinto runners for ever:

As with the Kent in FF, there have always been a few Pintos that are over-performers. No amount of Pinto upgrading is going to solve the problem of making Pintos all equal within 1-2 HP. So which ones do you make equal to the Zetec? The average ones, leaving the super motors better than everyone else, including the Zetecs? Or the Pinto super motors, leaving the majority of Pintos still several HP short?

That, IMO, is an impossible task.

That is one of the main reasons I converted from Pinto to Zetec - no more trying to find the magic motor!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I have no skin in this game - yet.... And I can see both sides of the issue... I think...

I think the general premise/goal here is the get those FCs sitting in garages back on the track... Is that the real goal?

Issue: Zetec HP creep. It's probably reached its peek, or very close to it. So the issue of it growing is probably mute. It's now a matter of equalizing....

Issue: Cars. Zetec cars are typically newer. Better suspension, better aero, better design. Its all part of progress.....

Issue: How to "equalize"? aka "Who gets punished/pays?"

Thoughts:

1. I generally think it's unfair to down tune the Zetecs. These guys have been spending the money already. They drive and tune on a regular basis. They have kept the class alive....

2. Cost. The general thought is to keep costs low. I agree. But again, the Zetec owners have spent the money - within the rules - to remain competitive - either through tuning or conversion from P to Z.

3. Pinto cars are older design (this is a generalization) and given the same power may still not be as fast.....

4. Is updating the Pinto rules the solution? What would allowing more Pinto power do?
Puts the cost on the Pinto owners. Is that wrong? Is it just a form of maintenance?

Conclusion:

Downgrading the Zetec power does not guarantee Pintos back on the track. Nothing does. That's like schools teaching to a common low level. No one excels...

I think the Pinto rules need to change. Allow more creativity. Maybe the Zetec owners will the complain about Pinto power creep... Maybe open the cam with a restrictor. Something that allows for more creativity. Just a carb change doesn't.....

Allowing a Pinto change improves the marketability of Pinto cars. Whether the garaged Pinto owner spends money to meet the changes or not, bringing the car back to the track is going to require spending money on deferred maintenance. These cars have been sitting. Buyers will be more interested in them because there would be room for improvement.

On the issue of cost of the change. Something like a cam change allows the home mechanic to boost the power of that older engine without having to pay an engine builder/tuner to do their magic. A carb change absolutely requires a tuner to maximize the benefit..... I know the cam is kind of brute force change but aren't we looking to jolt the class... ?

[Zac.B]

Okay let me have a turn:

First off I will state I am a zetec owner in a region dominated by pintos.

First Point: How would upgrading the pintos affect the duty cycle on them? Will pinto owners pay to upgrade then be paying even more to rebuild more often.

Second Point: Adjusting the map on the zetecs is obviously the easiest and cheapest way to equalize the two. Either way one group of owners is going to be upset, whether it's the pinto guys spending money or the zetec guys losing power.

[ccoffin]

I would be absolutely elated to pay ~$550 to upgrade the pinto. I'm having trouble understanding why anyone else would have issue with that. Tires alone are $1000 dollars a set in recurring cost, so $550 to always go faster is a no brainer right?

You could limit the Zetec for essentially no cost, but the added power of the class as a whole separates the cars a bit more from the FE's and FM's and should lead to less chances at having a group split by races amongst other classes.

Parting question, what constitutes a legal blueprint of a zetec? according to the GCR:

"The philosophy of the Zetec engine in FC is to allow limited engine rebuilds but no performance modifications to the engine. Blue printing, balancing, head porting, polishing, etc. are strictly prohibited and against the spirit of the Zetec formula. Where Ford part numbers are specified, normal industry part number supersession is expected and the superseding part numbers are automatically included."

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Okay let me have a turn:
First Point: How would upgrading the pintos affect the duty cycle on them? Will pinto owners pay to upgrade then be paying even more to rebuild more often.

Good Thoughts. More thoughts:

NO ONE would be required to modify their Pinto.
EVERYONE would be required to modify their Zetec.....

Zetec change means a sweeping change. Pinto change is optional....

At what point would it be cheaper to go to a Zetec rather than modify/rebuild the Pinto?
How many fewer weekends? Right now they aren't running.....

I watched the Majors @ Buttonwillow in April. 16 FCs, I believe they were ALL Zetec. They would all be required to downgrade their machines. FCs were grouped with FA, FB, FE, FM, P1, P2. That would create even more problems if they were slower....

[RobLav]

A better solution is to choose the next FC engine.

[Bob Wright]

Rob, I think that might need a different thread.

This is about ugrading the Pinto. Dave W hit it on the head and this argument has been hashed out on multiple past threads on this site.

Seems to me goal should be increasing the life of the Pinto so people can continue to economically use it for casual regional racing. No one seriously competing on the Pro or Majors level is going to use a Pinto anymore. We already have a new cam, head, and lighter flywheel, why not add the long rod/modern piston kits readily available in the aftermarket. My recollection is it will add about 5 hp simply by freeing up the bottom end, and add many hours of life because of better geometry with less piston to wall issues.

[RobLav]

Agree Bob, but they are inherently related.

[Phil Creighton]

Bob, I'm not sure you are right on the piston life from what we have seen on the latest pistons in S2 - its pretty good. I suspect head and cam design is now the Pinto lifing factor. However, like the alloy calipers, everybody gets to buy new parts and we remain at the status quo till the HP creep ("nobody wants to go slower") happens again and its as easy as restrictor and map as we had on the old Cooper Series.
However this is Club racing and trying to get all these older cars out should be the objective and carbs and long rod conversions are the antithesis of that goal. Even the $500 cam put people off running because its not just the cam or carb - its the rebuild and tuning that goes along with it.
Phil

[blackbmwk1200r]

Seems to me goal should be increasing the life of the Pinto so people can continue to economically use it for casual regional racing. No one seriously competing on the Pro or Majors level is going to use a Pinto anymore. We already have a new cam, head, and lighter flywheel, why not add the long rod/modern piston kits readily available in the aftermarket. My recollection is it will add about 5 hp simply by freeing up the bottom end, and add many hours of life because of better geometry with less piston to wall issues.

I would definitely be in for 5 Hp and adding many hours of life.
How many pinto powered cars sit or are raced infrequently because they need a rebuild and owners are reluctant to pony up the rebuild cost for an engine that even with a fresh rebuild is down in power against other entries in their class. And... they know another rebuild is just around the corner. And... they know that their car's market value is depressed and will remain depressed until a solution is found (if there is one) to pinto power and longevity issues.

[gcoffin]

Well first, let me state I have an exceptional Pinto in a modern Mygale chassis. I accepted that the zetec would come out of the corners a bit quicker, but I also knew that towards the end of the straight I would creep back up. Over the off season, the car was built up and optimized pretty much to the limits of the rules and the head was freshened. The car just makes minimum weight. The result, it is outright faster at every track we run and consistently faster lap to lap.

Unfortunately we have run into a few rebuilt ztecs that quite simply just walk away, which has never been the case before. This is further compounded by the fact that the drivers are also pretty good. So running faster than ever, at tracks where we held lap records last year we are 1 1/2 seconds down ........ Really.

The motors were pretty equal initially but not any more. Weight and a map or this just becomes a three tiered class like RSS pointed out :

Blue printed z

Monster pinto and crate z (of course these will eventually get rebuilt )

Every other pinto

I personally got no problem with a bigger carb because I have the data and know the carb is my restrictor plate, but I am not so sure about the rest of my pinto buddies.

[Purple Frog]

For the record. Phil talks about 1000 FC cars. A few years ago I spent about two months building a registry of all the FC cars I could find that were active in SCCA, COMMA, Midwest, VARA, Canada, etc. I came up with 260 cars. Of which almost 1/2 were already converted to zetecs.

If there are 1000 FC cars then over 700 of them have not raced in the last 5 years. How many years since Rossella has raced her Tatuus? Her Tatuus is in my registry. Almost everyone against a pinto upgrade doesn't race majors, or doesn't race FC much at all.

Just saying.

Look at SCCA race results for the past year in Major competition, it is almost solid zetecs.

My experience is that the rules are made based on who is running the national races and Runoffs, not what might be going on in regionals. The leaders of the class become the baseline to which all other requests are based. Based on participation, the zetecs control the data, as it should be. Fact: The pinto is not the primary engine in FC racing today.

I believe the pinto is still a good powerplant for the guy that wants to run only 4 to 7 races per year. That guy can probably get three or four years without having to refresh. It is low-tech enough that it is easy to keep running at the track. My idea was to give them a bit more scoot so if they entered a major it would be more enjoyable. Based on Apexspeed posts it is a horrible idea. Based on PMs it is a fantastic idea.