Tires - Again

[swiftdrivr]

Just to keep Hoosier honest, if nothing else, I think we should find out more about the AVONs. I would like AVON's responce, but I would rather have a competitor tell me how long they really last, as manufacturers are inclined to give best case performance, and we need info on real life experience. Does anyone have any real info as to how many heat cycles they are good for? Any Brits monitoring this thread? I'm not trying to make a big push for them, per se, as I like EJ's idea best, but competition improves the breed / car / driver / deal. Might as well get the best option and price we can get, rather than trying to change again later.

part two: For the very scientific reason of "Fords have always looked that way, and I like the look," I am partial to the profile of our current tires. I see some comments on the "cantilever" tires, and assume that refers to the bulge of the sidewall. What are the reasons for / issues with, that configuration?

[Ian Lenhart]

Guys, re the Toyos, I think we have to be realistic here. It is unlikely that we will get wide support for going straight from an open tire rule to a DoT street tire, given the history of the class and the general attitude about tires to this point. As a first step away from open tires to spec tire rule, it is far more likely that we will get support for a race slick like the R60.

Next thing you know there will be Honda motors in the back of those Formula Fords.....
Obviously the history of the class didn't stop that huge change. Plus, back in the day ff ran with treaded tires in the United States.
All this talk about setup, driving styles, etc. the guys up north already figured it out and they are running the same chassis'. Make a rule that you need to run a R60 slick in the rain and you may have matched the benefits of Toyo.

Ian

[stephen wilson]

I agree with Tom, you'll never get a concensus on switching to a DOT treaded tire, the R60 is a known with widespread usage, and the best chance for change. 5 years ago we couldn't even get CFF guys to all run treaded Dunlops, even after 1/3 of the field was running them.

[PK]

Just a few comments from a long-time R60 user on a CF.

I love the tire. It's why I got into CF when I was looking to simplify a bit from running an FC in Nationals. My experience, generally towards the pointy end of the CF grid, is that they are really good for about 6 heat cycles, lose about half a second for the next 6, and by the time they are at 15 heat cycles, they are a second off of new.

I think it would be a great spec tire for all FF.

Phil Kingham

[Dave Harmison]

Is the Toyo they run in Canada a real, buy it from any source you want, street tire?

What is the size/spec?

[problemchild]

Is the Toyo they run in Canada a real, buy it from any source you want, street tire?

What is the size/spec?

Toyo Proxes R888's

Fronts 185/60R/13
Rears 205/60R/13

Tires are available through Toyo Tires Motorsports dealers

In order to receive the series discount on the purchase of tires, competitors must register for the Toyo Tires Racing Program and present their Toyo Tires Member Id to the dealer when purchasing tires.

(From the Series website.)

[Dave Harmison]

Thanks for the info.

According to Tire Rack this is "Racetrack and Autocross Only" which I interpret to mean it is lots softer than the BFG Comp T/A was back in the Formula Ford Radial class. At $160 each they also are about the same price as a Hoosier R60 (Tire Rack price w/o any series discount).

The Toyo advantages then would be that they may last longer than an R60 and you would not need a rain tire unless they shave them too much. The disadvantages would be that they would be heavier than a Hoosier and handle very differently.

What I'm trying to do is get a feel for each option's pluses and minuses.

Is the Avon or Dunlop similar to the Toyo?

[BWC54]

Toyo Proxes R888's

Fronts 185/60R/13
Rears 205/60R/13

I have the R888's on my street Lotus Elise. What's a ballpark camber setting they run in the FF Canadian series?

[Steve Bamford]

Thanks for the info.

According to Tire Rack this is "Racetrack and Autocross Only" which I interpret to mean it is lots softer than the BFG Comp T/A was back in the Formula Ford Radial class. At $160 each they also are about the same price as a Hoosier R60 (Tire Rack price w/o any series discount).

The Toyo advantages then would be that they may last longer than an R60 and you would not need a rain tire unless they shave them too much. The disadvantages would be that they would be heavier than a Hoosier and handle very differently.

What I'm trying to do is get a feel for each option's pluses and minuses.

Is the Avon or Dunlop similar to the Toyo?

The Toyo's only last a few weekends of use including test days before the front guys start to switch. Based on heat cycles I don't think there is a huge difference. Getting many SCCA racers to change to a DOT tire will not be accepted by all.

They are not like the Falcon's that are used in F1200 that you can use for seasons at a time.

[problemchild]

Thanks for the info.

According to Tire Rack this is "Racetrack and Autocross Only" which I interpret to mean it is lots softer than the BFG Comp T/A was back in the Formula Ford Radial class. At $160 each they also are about the same price as a Hoosier R60 (Tire Rack price w/o any series discount).

The Toyo advantages then would be that they may last longer than an R60 and you would not need a rain tire unless they shave them too much. The disadvantages would be that they would be heavier than a Hoosier and handle very differently.

What I'm trying to do is get a feel for each option's pluses and minuses.

Is the Avon or Dunlop similar to the Toyo?

To answer the last question, No. Avon and Dunlop are treaded race tires.

Many of these questions have been answered several times. Here's a repost from #101 which was a repost of #39.

With our light cars and high pressures, we have not seen the advantages of worn Toyo tires that the street car guys see. Having newer tires for wet conditions is definitely preferable, although I try to get a few laps on them to remove the sticker glue and mold nibs before using them in the rain. I think I explained it well in an earlier post.
Post 39 - When you're running the Toyos, you can easily own just 8 wheels. We normally keep 4 new or almost new tires as spares for wet weather. If we get too thin on the primaries or damage one, we just rotate the deeper treaded tires in and buy new ones, one or two at a time. At Toronto last weekend, we were running a mix of tires purchased over a 3 year period. The Street car guys claim they are faster when worn out, but we don't like the last 5%, nore the initial mold release removal laps. Any performance difference between 99% and 5% wear is marginal and debatable. As a man of logic, I cannot argue that there is no theoretical performance gain, but it is certainly minimal on cars of our weight.
Without the cantilever sidewalls, virtually any tire shop can do mounting/dismounting.



In the last 10 years, I have prepped cars on every tire being discussed here but the Avon.

Running fronts on all 4 corners was the worst, closely followed by the later Dunlops. A serious racer will use 2 sets per event easily.

The best part about the Toyos is that I could not detect measurable change in performance between 99% and 5% tread wear. They are inexpensive and there is great commercial support. Unfortunately, they are short on rear grip and you will use 50% more rear tires than fronts. I find it ironic that some of those most opposed to Toyos insist on running fronts on the rears (with slicks). IMO, the setup and driving style is very similiar between Toyos and 4X front slicks. If the average FF racer does 6 events and 2 test days per year, I expect he would use 2 fronts and 4 rears in a season with Toyos. The real fast guys will use more .... because of wear, not because of cycles/speed.

The Pro F1600 tire is an excellent spec tire in a format where people expect to buy tires. The balance stays close as they wear so you can test on them after you have raced on them. I do think most of the Pro paddock would accept a longer wearing tire like the 60A.

The 60As are an awesome tire. Unlike the Toyo, I do believe they slow down with multiples of sessions, and real fast guys won't use them past 10-12 sessions. The marginal performance decrease will let those that run them for more sessions, maintain reasonable levels of competitiveness. Real fast guys will wear them out too before they're in to teens of sessions.

The FF community will not go wrong with either Toyos or 60As IMO. Both have their advantages. I do think Hoosier provides an excellent product and can make the perfect spec tire for us if given the opportunity.

If I was making the decision, I would ask Bruce to supply the current 60As as a spec tire for 2015. We can probably just squeeze that in if SCCA people help us get this organized. We should then ask Bruce to develop a spec FF tire for 2016 and beyond which would have a larger but non-cantilever rear tire that will keep both sides (of the rear tire size group) happy.

If I was a PR kinda guy, I'd be on the phone to Toyo, putting together a deal that would bring in great tires and a couple hundred grand of commercial support!

[Rick Kean]

Tires – series spec. tires 195/60 R14 Falken

F1200, another Canadian open wheel class on street radials

[problemchild]

I have the R888's on my street Lotus Elise. What's a ballpark camber setting they run in the FF Canadian series?

We run about double the camber that we run with the ProF1600 slicks for a total between 1-2 degrees. Pressures are in the mid-to-high twenties. The rears have about the same circumference but the ride height increases because of the tire construction and extra pressure. The front Toyos are definitely taller than the Hoosiers.

[reidhazelton]

I am not getting into another tire debate, but this one is the same as all the past ones. There is no consensus, just unrealistic expectations with no real tire vote on.

So far, we want a tire that is less than $600, lasts a season (how long is that?) with no drop off with heat cycles, requires minimal changes to the car, also doubles as a rain tire, is unaffected by shaving, etc. There is nothing here to vote on but a wish. If that tire existed, then hell yeah let's do it. But it doesn't.

Simple: any hard compound tire. R60, whatever the GY used to be that doesn't exist, American Racer, Toyo, whatever. Done.

Every option will have drawbacks. It's a matter of if the perceived savings (we really don't know what that will be, so it is a guess) will be greater than the negatives.

Pick a tire, go with it, and live with the pros and cons.

PS. What is all this crap ragging on Hoosier? They have the lion's share of the market because the earned it. Look at the total crap GY brough to the Runoffs the 4 years before they pulled out. Do you want to run that? They own the market because the make the best product, and to start labeling them as price gougers is very unfair. GY pulled out because they could not make a profit, and their tires were very close in price to Hoosier. Go price a set of Avons, they cost about the same also. I am fairly certain tires are made from oil....and oil prices have gone up proportionality more than Hoosier tires have. Also, they do R&D on their stuff, real R&D before the bring it out. Trust me. The new formula tire the came up with AFTER GY left. They had no reason to make a better (more consistent) tire, but they did. I think we can at least thank them for that. Personally, I think we should be happy anyone makes anything for road racing, especially open wheel road racing. Guys, we are like 5% of the racing world here, and I am happy we don't all have to run around on mini-sprint or dirt stocker tires.

[ric baribeault]

well said. agree completely. let me cast the first official vote....R60

[Steve Bamford]

Reid,

I think this thread is a little different then the ones I have seen in a past. Very few negative comments, if any, for FF getting a spec tire.

From what I read most of the questions/comments have been which tire it should be based on what is out there currently.

Your comments on not bashing Hoosier are good ones as they have been the ones out there support the racing community more then others.

I agree lets pick a tire & live with the pros & cons...well said.

I have already written my request to the CRB outlining the tire I think would be best for all involved & without upsetting most.

[Tom Valet]

Reid, where do you see anyone "bashing" Hoosier? Criticizing the fact that to be competitive one has to spend $1,100 for a set of tires that wear out in a few sessions is not bashing Hoosier. It is a legitimate complaint about something that is NOT GOOD for the FF class. I am a vocal critic of the price of the current tires but I am also one of the biggest biggest supporters of Hoosier for all they have done for racing and for FF.

I like Greg Rice's suggestion that we try to get the R60 as the spec tire for 2015 and use next year to see what alternative is best for the long term.

[Roux]

I think we should all act as one. Ask for the R60 for all SCCA FF events starting Jan 1st 2015. Then debate next year once the season is under what the next step might be.

We need to do something other than debate.

My letter is in as of now

Steve

[mike g.]

I think we should all act as one. Ask for the R60 for all SCCA FF events starting Jan 1st 2015. Then debate next year once the season is under what the next step might be.

We need to do something other than debate.

My letter is in as of now

Steve

Do you want the R60 as it sits, or in the R45/F1600 mold?

If anyone thinks its a good idea, I can setup a survey or such to capture everything and we can make a combined effort with emails, scca #s, etc all in one?

[Roux]

Since this is all about value, increasing good heat cycles per dollar, what is Hooiser's take?

Tom Valet, you are close to those guys. Could you ask?

requirements:

Minimum wear behavior of the R60

Cost per set = R60

Available for Jan 1st 2015 break in as our FF spec tire

[Tom Valet]

Steve, i am in no position to speak for Hoosier, but when I mentioned to Bruce that there appeared to be support for making the R60 the spec tire, either for 2015 alone or long term, he said Hoosier would be glad to use that tire as the FF spec tire and that with volume production that comes with a spec tire he thought they might even be able to lower the cost a bit from its current price ($149 front and $179 rear I believe).

If there is real interest in this idea I can speak with Bruce again.

[ric baribeault]

I'll also give him a call. I believe we'd have better results from a reverse engineering position, in that, it's probably better if we go to Hoosier and ask them to mandate to SCCA rather than the other way around. I also think small steps is a more proper and reasonable way to proceed, and hope that the majority agrees

[Rick Kirchner]

is there a proposed deadline for letters?

[Garey Guzman]

I am not getting into another tire debate, but this one is the same as all the past ones. There is no consensus, just unrealistic expectations with no real tire vote on.

So far, we want a tire that is less than $600, lasts a season (how long is that?) with no drop off with heat cycles, requires minimal changes to the car, also doubles as a rain tire, is unaffected by shaving, etc. There is nothing here to vote on but a wish. If that tire existed, then hell yeah let's do it. But it doesn't.

Simple: any hard compound tire. R60, whatever the GY used to be that doesn't exist, American Racer, Toyo, whatever. Done.

Every option will have drawbacks. It's a matter of if the perceived savings (we really don't know what that will be, so it is a guess) will be greater than the negatives.

Pick a tire, go with it, and live with the pros and cons.

PS. What is all this crap ragging on Hoosier? They have the lion's share of the market because the earned it. Look at the total crap GY brough to the Runoffs the 4 years before they pulled out. Do you want to run that? They own the market because the make the best product, and to start labeling them as price gougers is very unfair. GY pulled out because they could not make a profit, and their tires were very close in price to Hoosier. Go price a set of Avons, they cost about the same also. I am fairly certain tires are made from oil....and oil prices have gone up proportionality more than Hoosier tires have. Also, they do R&D on their stuff, real R&D before the bring it out. Trust me. The new formula tire the came up with AFTER GY left. They had no reason to make a better (more consistent) tire, but they did. I think we can at least thank them for that. Personally, I think we should be happy anyone makes anything for road racing, especially open wheel road racing. Guys, we are like 5% of the racing world here, and I am happy we don't all have to run around on mini-sprint or dirt stocker tires.

Ditto

[Peter Olivola]

Recognizing that many believe manufacturers do this sort of thing on a routine basis, I would suggest this is exactly the worst approach to getting this done. Even if Hoosier were to consider doing it, which I doubt, it's a bridge too far for SCCA. It would risk alienating other suppliers and produce the kind of backlash among those competitors opposed to it that creates the paralysis that prevents movement.

OTOH, an organized approach from within the FF competitor community stands a much better chance of being received, considered and given a favorable ruling.

I'll also give him a call. I believe we'd have better results from a reverse engineering position, in that, it's probably better if we go to Hoosier and ask them to mandate to SCCA rather than the other way around. I also think small steps is a more proper and reasonable way to proceed, and hope that the majority agrees

[swiftdrivr]

Any data on setup changes needed for the R60 [in it's current form] for modern [and semi-modern DB-1] Formula Fords? I have heard they are different heights, and likely different compliance as well.
Reid: Never meant to bash Hoosier, but as tire cost are a huge part of our budget, getting a good deal is not an unreasonable goal. Like I said, I prefer EJ's "R60 in an R45 mold" idea, and I don't run in the rain, so AVONs don't help me as much as they would others who would no longer need rain tires..

[Tom Valet]

I have heard from two inside sources now that it would be impossible at the present time to consider the Toyos as tne FF tire, so I think it is pointless to keep discussing that option. I imagine the same woukd be true of the Avon.

The club has relationships with manufacturers, including Hoosier, that it has to be cognizant of. Hoosier has done a lot for FF and SCCA and even considering a manufacturer like Toyo that has done nothing for FF to this point is not in the cards.

In the past, the club's relationship with both Goodyear and Hoosier as long time FF tire suppliers made it difficult to consider making one of them the spec tire, particularly without clear support from tne competitors. Now, with Goodyear out of the FF market, if the competitors want a Hoosier spec tire and if Hoosier supports that idea, a spec tire coukd be considered.

[Matt King]

The club has relationships with manufacturers, including Ford, that it has to be cognizant of. Ford has done a lot for FF and SCCA and even considering a manufacturer like Honda that has done nothing for FF to this point is not in the cards.

FIFY.

[Tom Valet]

Matt, I am struggling to remember tbe last time Ford did ANYTHING for FF in tne U.S. before Honda came to the SCCA with their engine proposal. There were no toes for Honda or SCCA to step on as Ford had left the class probably 30 years before.

[Matt King]

I could dig up plenty of thread comments about it, including the letter Ford Racing sent trying to stave off the Honda deal, but that wasn't really the point. The point was that SCCA will do what it wants to do if they think it is in "the club's" best interest, which is not always going to make all the members of an impacted class happy.

[Tom Valet]

The point was that SCCA will do what it wants to do if they think it is in "the club's" best interest, which is not always going to make all the members of an impacted class happy.

You'll get no argument from me on this point, in fact that's what I was talking about, the club's interests and competitors interests arent always the same. But like it or not, that's the reality we have to live with.

[Peter Olivola]

A letter. After years of, to be as charitable as possible, neglect? You call that supporting the class? Ford U.S. lost interest before my first race in the class in 1976.

I could dig up plenty of thread comments about it, including the letter Ford Racing sent trying to stave off the Honda deal, but that wasn't really the point. The point was that SCCA will do what it wants to do if they think it is in "the club's" best interest, which is not always going to make all the members of an impacted class happy.

[Matt King]

A letter. After years of, to be as charitable as possible, neglect? You call that supporting the class?

Of course not, but it didn't stop them from trying, and it didn't stop many of their apologists from crying foul about "ruining" Formula Ford by allowing the Honda engine. It would be no different with tires.

[Brian C in Az]

If anyone thinks its a good idea, I can setup a survey or such to capture everything and we can make a combined effort with emails, scca #s, etc all in one?

In your survey and also in your submittal to the SCCA, count the guys that are not currently members, but would be interested in rejoining if the SCCA would make racing more affordable.

[marshall9]

I have heard from two inside sources now that it would be impossible at the present time to consider the Toyos as tne FF tire, so I think it is pointless to keep discussing that option. I imagine the same woukd be true of the Avon.

The club has relationships with manufacturers, including Hoosier, that it has to be cognizant of. Hoosier has done a lot for FF and SCCA and even considering a manufacturer like Toyo that has done nothing for FF to this point is not in the cards.

In the past, the club's relationship with both Goodyear and Hoosier as long time FF tire suppliers made it difficult to consider making one of them the spec tire, particularly without clear support from tne competitors. Now, with Goodyear out of the FF market, if the competitors want a Hoosier spec tire and if Hoosier supports that idea, a spec tire coukd be considered.

What? Insiders of what?
Toyo has and is doing a lot for FF in Canada. Things like sponsoring a series that runs preliminary spectator races for Formula One events. What evidence do these "Insiders" have that Toyo wouldn't do the same for SCCA? I am not the guy, because I do not have the corporate contacts to be the guy, but someone reading all of this must have a way to call and ask Toyo, like someone here has asked Hoosier, if they would be interested and if so, to what extent.

I am glad that this spec tire idea has morphed beyond the point of whether or not to try to whom to try with.

Tom, I respect you and your point of view, but disagree with your above post regarding "Insider" information to drop the Toyo idea......

[marshall9]

In your survey and also in your submittal to the SCCA, count the guys that are not currently members, but would be interested in rejoining if the SCCA would make racing more affordable.

Yup,
First the tires, then we will lobby for an amendment to the supps that requires that drivers get track time equal to impound time after sessions

[Max Power]

Tom, I respect your point of view as well. You certainly have more experience and history on this topic than I do. I'm just a guy with a VD sitting quietly in the garage (good reason to enter the debate), but I think it's worth pointing out two things direct from the Toyo website:

http://toyotires.com/team-toyo/racing
"We have been the Official Tire of SCCA world Challenge® since 2001, the Toyo Proxes R888 currently holding this prestigious title. It is our flagship competition tire and it delivers race-winning performance to drivers across racing."

http://toyotires.com/team-toyo/partners
"Toyo Tires supports SCCA Club Racing and drivers through several contingency programs."

So they don't currently support FF in the US. Maybe they just decided it's not worth trying to compete in this tiny market vs a long history of racing slicks (not their core business), especially when they have a successful program up north.

Hoosier may certainly be the path of least resistance, but to completely dismiss Toyo as a viable alternative is a bit of a stretch, given that it's widely accepted in other markets. And to say Toyo isn't an SCCA partner is incorrect. I'm sure we're all interested to know who the "inside sources" are. This is a fantastic opportunity for both Hoosier and Toyo.

[Tom Valet]

What? Insiders of what? .

Inside the management of SCCA, obviously. People who are and have been imvolved with FF for many years. People who want to help us but also want us to understand the reality of things, what can and cannot be accomplished.

Just as an FYI, I have no relationship with Hoosier. We have never had a tire deal with Hoosier (in fact were always on Goodyears until they pulled out if FF). In 2010 I submitted a proposal for an FF spec tire, asking for bids to be sent to all manufscturers to produce a tire for us, followed by testing to pick the best one. The proposal went nowhere, I am told, because a) the competitors did not express in a strong, united voice their desire for a spec tire and b) the internal relationships I mentioned above made it difficult for SCCA to take that kind of action.

If people want to continue to push for Toyo that's fine, but not only will it have little chance of success but it might hurt the chances for anything being done at all.

[Steve Bamford]

Keep in mind we run mixed class racing in SCCA. One thing people have pointed out for the Toyo is that you don't require a rain tire as they run as a dry & a rain tire. If you are using a very new set of Toyo's you will still have some grip but if you are using a tire that has some wear on it they become very tough to drive in the wet. So basically if you want to be competitive you have two sets anyways.

With that said, running in mixed class racing with other classes that run a rain tire, you will have a hard time getting around the track compared to other classes that are on a true rain tire. The difference in grip is huge. Having FV's pass you & messing up their races is not cool. The cost of repairs to a car in the wall far exceed the cost of running a rain tire IMO.

I am not against running on Toyo's, as we do here in Canada, however I do not think this is the best route for the SCCA at this time. As others have pointed out that mixed messages on what should be a spec tire will make it tougher to have the chance of a spec tire introduced. This is likely the closest we have come in many years to having people at least agree a spec tire is good idea & wanted, lets not blow it by asking for something that will create too many obstacles.

[Roux]

If we start debating with tire companies about a new tire we will likely lose 2015. Back and forth debates and contracting will take too long. That in my opinion leaves R60A and Toyo. They can be put in place as a spec tire with no additional work, other than a commitment from the car owners out here and some regulating by SCCA.

They each have pros and cons, but Steve Bamford's point on the mixed class racing is important and reinforces my favoring a real rain tire and R60A for a dry tire.

I guess we have to guard against someone bringing 6 sets of R25A's with a few hand cut grooves in them and pointing to a distant cumulus cloud as his/her excuse to put them on the car.

Ask for R60A as of January first and we debate how well it went 18 months from now

If you haven't sent a request to SCCA, please do so. Time will run out and we stand to save thousands and perhaps bring more cars out more often. Exactly what the class needs.

[Max Power]

Ask for R60A as of January first and we debate how well it went 18 months from now

If you haven't sent a request to SCCA, please do so. Time will run out and we stand to save thousands and perhaps bring more cars out more often. Exactly what the class needs.

All very good points, fellas. Count me in for the R60A. My letter is going in today. Let's keep Hoosier on task to make it happen, too.