Tires - Again

[Steve Bamford]

The street tire works in Canada. They have good fields. They run the same cars as we do.

Why not go with the same tire? Most likely we won't, if there is any change at all, becasue that would be too easy and too cost effective.

They work in Canada because that is what we are told to run. I have no issues running on them so tell me that is what we run on in the US & I will do it as well without complaining.

It is likely easier to have less noise going to a R60 or similar tire but as others have pointed out go to a limited number of tires per event as well.

Why not have someone ask the tire companies what they are willing to do if the SCCA can mandate a spec tire? Would seem to make sense before any decisions were made what we can get from our supplier.

[Tom Valet]

Steve, I had a long conversation with Bruce Foss in May at the Glen Pro Race. Long story short:

1. Hoosier will make any tire that the FF class/SCCA want them to make.
2. Hoosier would love to have the contract for a spec tire for all SCCA FF racing.
3. Hoosier will not do anything radical on their own without clear indication from the racers that change is needed or direction from race management.
4. Hoosier is making minor changes to the construction of the F1600 tire for 2015 but nothing substantial. Kevlar is apparently hard to source these days.
5. Hoosier would prefer to get rid of the cantilever tire.
6. Hoosier would prefer that the FF tire NOT be a radial--they believe younger drivers in this class benefit more from starting on the bias ply.
7. Bruce laughed at the concept of racing on a street tire in this class, which is understandable given he works for a race tire company and also because pure racing tires of the kind they make perform better.
8. He reminded me that Hoosier is in business to make money and they need to sell tires.

Back in 2010 I had a similar conversation with Bruce and also with Bob Shafer of Goodyear before the tire proposal was submitted. I suggest you or anyone else interested in this speak with Bruce, he is happy to talk to anyone that wants his views on things, we are his customers and he values feedback from us.

[Steve Bamford]

We ran the new last weekend at the Pro Race in PIR & the tire seemed very good, similar to the last version, IMO.

I would still like a longer lasting tire.

[marshall9]

The radial Toyos /Yokahamas/Sumitomos that I have driven an FF on are harder to drive fast than a soft slick.
They teach car control, and when driving fast on them, to me it's not exactly like, but similar in some ways to rain driving, much more sliding which is felt earlier, and more warning is given by the tires before grip is gone and the car spins. Inputs must be smoother, particularly brake modulation. The setup learning process for young drivers is great because little changes are noticed sooner than when on slicks. Push and over steer are more extreme due to less adhesion. You must be smooth to go fast on DOT tires. I bring this up to point out that there are other benefits than the cost savings involved. These things may encourage younger up and coming drivers to look at FF, even those with unlimited tire budgets. Then maybe some will race here as fields grow rather than going to Europe to do it, saving many thousands for later in their career development. If they go to Europe, they will be on radial treads anyway.

Even as a non pro, not aspiring to be pro driver, part of the fun factor for me is learning how to drive better, and what set up changes do what to the car's handling and lap times. IMO, these things are easier to learn on a DOT radial than a soft slick, and again a whole lot cheaper, both in tire cost and crash damage.

I know some think my opinion doesn't matter, as I do not race with SCCA, but I would come back to SCCA if they had a more affordable tire. They race at many cool tracks out west that I would love to drive, but adding another 2K per weekend for tires to run up front, puts a single weekend budget right at what I can run locally on for three weekends with our group on Toyos and in 15-20 FF fields. This is the primary reason that I recently sold my RF92 to go the CF route, so I will be CF eligible to run in other sanctioning bodies most on American Racers, be competitive, and travel some.

The Toyos not only last longer, but cost half as much initially, approx. 550.00/set mounted and balanced.

I get it that Hoosier has been good to SCCA. It's not personal, just business. To me, it just doesn't make good sense to spend twice as much for a tire that lasts a third as long. If they will build anything we want, tell them they have to be under 600/set, last a long time and let them build them. I understand and respect Brand loyalty and also understand opposition to all this from those that have free or near free tire deals with Hoosier. But where's the tipping point? It has been said in numerous above posts that since Hoosier has the exclusive on FF slicks, that prices have nearly doubled. What about if they decide to charge 2200/set? Will fields at the club level stay the same size? Grow? Decrease? The answer is obvious. If it is obvious, logic dictates that if the prices fell by half, and tire life increased, then the answer to the field size question in that scenario should be obvious as well.


I would be interested in a comment from Bamford regarding my above opinion of driving techniques between the two,soft slicks and DOT radials, and his thoughts on which and why one or the other is a better learning tool.

[Steve Bamford]

Some in the Pro Series would like a harder tire as more of a teaching aid for young drivers as the current tire covers up some mistakes.

Yes you need to be smoother with the street tire to be quick.

With that said I still think there will be too much opposition to DOT tire & personally believe we have a better chance of something like the R60 which is commonly used in CFF already.

[mblanc]

This is a copy of my post from 11/6/09 on this subject,

rereading it now, I feel the same way...........

clip..........
I will support ONLY: a HARD DURABLE COMPOUND, REAL slick, race tire,
(I will NOT support a mid compound tire, nor a street tire)

Fail to go to sufficiently hard enough compound, and you make the problem only worse, in that case you not only buy tires often, but now have no choice of what to buy.


The entire 80-90 car field of FF40th CFF made it through the kink on R60's, so don't worry about that. (the FC guys are missing all the fun, take off the wings, and put the hard tires on for more pucker factor ;-)


Tom I don't think you should be trying to spec or control the price either,
the savings will come from having the right tire, and using less of them,
initial per set costs being lowered is a really small nut compared to the year long potential savings. Dangerous territory to tread into, trying to 'name the price'

and then keep it simple and just make it the Hoosier R60 option.

The research and field trials have been done and proven in decades plus of that rule in cendiv and other areas of regional CFF spec tire rules. Tire rules work, and are the norm in other places and series.

Lets just propose that, and get started.
It's worked for 5+ years of EWC, a couple decades of Cen-Div CFF, it will work for FF.


And for you king 'o cheap types, when the guy w/ too much money takes of his 3-5 cycle tires and gives them to you, you've got a set for the YEAR, not a race or two, so you'll save even MORE $ by using those takeoffs that are 12% used, instead of your R35's that are 60% used up.



And one more thought,................

The real savings in tires, is having a consistent enough tire to run the high cycle counts on, on test days, practice sessions, etc. Having a consistent tire you can still tune the car on, w/ a real high cycle count is where the savings for front runners comes also, then bolt on your low cycle count set for Qual and race, and it's relevant, UNLIKE soft tires, you can tune on those high cycle counts, and make it relevant.

data: I did the wednesday test day for the FF40th w/ the crossle on a take off set that was run for a season on another car(2007 I think), then I stored them for 2008, and ran them at BFR in April 09, AND the FF40th testday, the first stickers the car saw was Q1, and the same set that led into T5 on lap one.


and I'll be done after this one,........................


(IMHO, it's not true, but) EVEN IF, the hard compound is a few tenths slower at 6+ cycles, that's still a huge improvement of competitiveness for the mid packers, that previously couldn't afford new rubber. Put everybody on the same hard compound slick, the field will be closer, encouraging more entries and racing on less $ in the mid and back pack.
......unclip


clipped from this thread:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36788

[S Lathrop]

Tom Valet:

I posted my thoughts for options to think about.

I don't have a position on a new tire rule. I was just throwing out ideas.

Given the current realities of SCCA Club Racing, I think it would not be a good idea to do anything that slows FF when FF is racing in mixed race groups. The same is true for making the cars more difficult to drive.

[Steve Bamford]

Tom Valet:

I posted my thoughts for options to think about.

I don't have a position on a new tire rule. I was just throwing out ideas.

Given the current realities of SCCA Club Racing, I think it would not be a good idea to do anything that slows FF when FF is racing in mixed race groups. The same is true for making the cars more difficult to drive.

Steve,

If we were talking about the R60 I believe we are talking about 10ths of a second per lap which can be confirmed by Andy's times verses the Pro times at PIR just last weekend. CFF is running these tires so I can't believe it will make the cars worse to drive.

Just trying to put all the info out there so to give people something to consider.

[stuart jackson]

Stuart, do you know what a set of Avons costs? I dint know for sure but have read that they are expensive.

I have found them for $200 a set they look good they are light long lasting to me its a no brainer.

[Tim Webb]

Why are you hung up on slicks. FF has been run around the world on treaded tires for years. We are the only ones running on slicks (maybe that has changed?).

If we use the same tire as the Great White North, it will be easier for us and for them to cross to the other side and expand both fields.

Your head in the sand with regard to what the rest of the world does is silly. I'm all for having to be more precise to be quick. Bring it on.

BTW, we missed you at Hallett this year.

[Tom Valet]

I have found them for $200 a set they look good they are light long lasting to me its a no brainer.

$200 a tire you mean?

Roger Krause is a US importer. $220 for 185s and $250 for 215s for the ACB10 tires.

http://rogerkrausracing.com/pages/pricing.html

[brooks81]

The Southeast made the 60's the spec CF tire a long time ago. We get them for a discount because of this! The first 60's we ran, the rears gave out first at about fifteen heat cycles. Hoosier improved the compound (R60A) after feed back from the racers.( try that with a huge DOT tire company) The new compound is a great improvement. The tires seem to be a little softer and have a great shelf life. ( just keep them out of your trailer all summer). The last set I took off were given to me by a fellow racer 09s I think. He ran them at the arrc and a practice day 2010. I ran them (changing from right to left) until the "tell tail" sign on the inside of the tire showed up . I then flipped them on the rim and raced two more doubles with practice days. ( do not try that with a DOT directional tire) (or a Goodyear) (or Avon) Thirty plus heat cycles! Ask the Formula Ford drivers that were at Roebling how well they still worked.
I think the Dunlops have an equal lifespan, but they loose traction at a much lower speed. They are a lot of fun to drive but take less balls to drive on the limit. ( at twice the price).
The DOT tires are the same. less g's means slower lap times, not as hard on the aging drivers. I think they would still be more expensive than the discounted R60A's.

[marshall9]

The Southeast made the 60's the spec CF tire a long time ago. We get them for a discount because of this! The first 60's we ran, the rears gave out first at about fifteen heat cycles. Hoosier improved the compound (R60A) after feed back from the racers.( try that with a huge DOT tire company) The new compound is a great improvement. The tires seem to be a little softer and have a great shelf life. ( just keep them out of your trailer all summer). The last set I took off were given to me by a fellow racer 09s I think. He ran them at the arrc and a practice day 2010. I ran them (changing from right to left) until the "tell tail" sign on the inside of the tire showed up . I then flipped them on the rim and raced two more doubles with practice days. ( do not try that with a DOT directional tire) (or a Goodyear) (or Avon) Thirty plus heat cycles! Ask the Formula Ford drivers that were at Roebling how well they still worked.
I think the Dunlops have an equal lifespan, but they loose traction at a much lower speed. They are a lot of fun to drive but take less balls to drive on the limit. ( at twice the price).
The DOT tires are the same. less g's means slower lap times, not as hard on the aging drivers. I think they would still be more expensive than the discounted R60A's.

How much does a set of 4 R60A's cost?

[DanW]

Hoosier Tires West web page quotes $636 plus tax and ship.

http://www.hoosiertirewest.com/brows...cks/2,31.html?

American Racers are about $550/set plus CA recycle fee + tax.

[Brian C in Az]

Tom Valet:

I posted my thoughts for options to think about.

I don't have a position on a new tire rule. I was just throwing out ideas.

Given the current realities of SCCA Club Racing, I think it would not be a good idea to do anything that slows FF when FF is racing in mixed race groups. The same is true for making the cars more difficult to drive.

We run with Mazda Lights, FC and other groups without any problems. The common fallacy is that we need to be as fast as FC or Mazda Lights to make it safer for them to pass. But in reality, the greater the lap time difference, the easier it is for them to pass us without us interfering with their race. It is much more difficult to pass a car that is .1 sec/lap slower than to pass a car that is 5 sec/lap slower than you.

[Brian C in Az]

Other countries have different economic, demographic, and cultural dynamics than the United States. other parts of the country have different dynamics.

The Canadian F1600 series, for instance, has several events that play in front of major pro series AND are televised.

In Europe people actually show up to watch entry-level formula car racing, hence they can get sponsors from more people than their high school buddies or blackmail victims.

They race in front of the majors because they have large fields!
They get televised because they have large fields!
People show up to watch the races because (are you ready?) they have large fields!
They get sponsors and sponsors money because (do you know the answer yet?) that have large fields!

SCCA racing have been on the decline for one reason only, the costs involved with racing.
If racing only cost $50 a weekend, we would have fields of a hundred cars. Because the SCCA has caused the costs to exceed a couple thousand dollars per race, the fields have shrunk considerably.
Do you want large fields? Or would you rather race 3 cars on slicks?

Another point to remember, the drivers are growing older and many this year have sold the cars suddenly do to age and health. The fields are shrinking. It is clear that change is needed NOW.

The rest of the world runs on treaded DOT tires. DOT tires DO save money, cost less, last longer. DOT tires DO NOT detract from the racing, quite the contrary, they increase competition since they act as an equalizer in car performance.

[marshall9]

Hoosier Tires West web page quotes $636 plus tax and ship.

http://www.hoosiertirewest.com/brows...cks/2,31.html?

American Racers are about $550/set plus CA recycle fee + tax.

Having been a vocal proponent of DOT treaded. tires here for years, a slick that is 660 a set and goes 15 cycles with a drop off of only .5 seconds after 4 or 5 cycles has my attention as a compromise between the current SCCA tires and the Toyos.

[teamwalker]

A new set of Hoosier CF (60s) just cost me just over $700 mounted at the track (Summit Point). That is not cheap for 15 - 20 heat cycles.

Craig Walker

[Daryl DeArman]

Hoosier R7. So far only available in 16-18" sizes.

For what it is worth, the 205/50/15 was the first tire released in the new R7 compound and construction. Not that it helps solve the FF availability issue, just trying to keep facts straight.

[Steve Bamford]

One requesting a tire limit per race weekend & the second being to adopt a spec tire.

Maybe I sent it to the wrong place but at least at the end of the day I can say I tried. Better then doing nothing in my opinion.

[Joe911]

I should know better than to get involved but I need to at least indicate my viewpoint (vote). I have raced on Hoosier R25/35s and now R60s.

I agree with MBLANC - I will support ONLY: a HARD DURABLE COMPOUND, REAL slick, race tire. No interest in a street tire.

1) Cost effective R60s = $700 for a set mounted, etc. $400 saving even if you buy a new set every session or day.
2) Very little deterioration for 10 cycles+. I am no faster on 5th heat cycles compared to 1-2 for me. Could be driver inconsistency, but I set the CF lap record at Sebring this summer on the 10th heat cycle.
3) The middle 2/3 of the racers will benefit the most and this is the crowd we need to get out to race more often.

There is no perfect solution - but here's my vote.

PS - no problem passing FV on the straights or closing in the corners.

[Tom Valet]

One requesting a tire limit per race weekend & the second being to adopt a spec tire.

Maybe I sent it to the wrong place but at least at the end of the day I can say I tried. Better then doing nothing in my opinion.

I would encourage everyone who is not happy with the current situation to follow Steve's lead and write the CRB. The only way any action will ever be taken is if there is a clear indication that the FF community wants change. Nothing will ever be done if everyone sits back in silence.

[Steve Bamford]

I would encourage everyone who is not happy with the current situation to follow Steve's lead and write the CRB. The only way any action will ever be taken is if there is a clear indication that the FF community wants change. Nothing will ever be done if everyone sits back in silence.

Mine were Letter # 14600 & # 14601 just in case anyone carried.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

A new set of Hoosier CF (60s) just cost me just over $700 mounted at the track (Summit Point). That is not cheap for 15 - 20 heat cycles.

Craig Walker

Craig,

Not sure what you are comparing the cost to but I think that is a pretty good deal. FV Hoosiers are about $800.00+ mounted and last 6-8 heat cycles.

SFR tires are $900.00+ mounted and they last around 10 cycles on the rear and 16 on the front.

I know the Miata guys spend more then what you are paying for R60's for less heat cycles.

Just depends how competitive you are and how fast you want to go. The Hoosier R60 FF/FST tire is one of the best values out there.

[Daryl DeArman]

How come my buddy pays $420 for a set of Hoosier IMCA modified tires that have a whole lot more rubber in them than the slicks FF guys use?

[Matt King]

How come my buddy pays $420 for a set of Hoosier IMCA modified tires that have a whole lot more rubber in them than the slicks FF guys use?

Volume?

[Daryl DeArman]

Undoubtedly there are many more IMCA modified racers than SCCA FF racers, but the IMCA modified guys run a "1 tire" rule. Not sure how that all shakes out exact number-wise.

The lesson is get everybody on the same tire, size, compound, etc and the price will go down.

If the opposite were to happen (mandate a single tire and then gouge the heck out of everybody) change the spec tire to another manufacturer.

A tire bill of $105/event is a game changer for many.

[teamwalker]

Scott,

Purpose of my post was to reply to post re. new set of 60's at under $700. Not my experience.
Back in the day, I ran a SF (before SRF) and an new set of tires would last an entire season. This was in the San Francisco Region running 12 races, plus some practice days, plus the Pacific Coast Race. Fastest lap I ever turned was at Thunderhill with cord showing throw the tread!! Now saying I was number 1, but I was a consistent top 5. Qualified 3rd on those old tires.

My opinion is that we need to lower costs as much as possible. If the tires need to be hard, so be it as long as we are on the same tire. I choose CF simply because of costs, bought American Racers because that is what came on the car, and was told by my East Coast competition that I would never compete on those tires. West Coast appears to be happy on them, but I am outclassed in the East.

We can solve this problem by a national rule!

Craig

P.S. Jut my 2 cents

[Brian C in Az]

The lesson is get everybody on the same tire, size, compound, etc and the price will go down.

If the opposite were to happen (mandate a single tire and then gouge the heck out of everybody) change the spec tire to another manufacturer.

A tire bill of $105/event is a game changer for many.

That is the key, get costs down to make compatitive racing affordable, and increase our field counts.
Doesn't really matter if the spec is the R60 or the Toyo DOT, the end result will be more racers each weekend. Isn't that what we all really want?

[Tom Valet]

One requesting a tire limit per race weekend & the second being to adopt a spec tire.

Maybe I sent it to the wrong place but at least at the end of the day I can say I tried. Better then doing nothing in my opinion.

I sent in a request to the CRB for a spec tire to be adopted for the class, explaining my reasons.

Please do the same if you want something to be done.

Go to SCCA.com, go to member log in, then resources, then directory, then Boards and Committees and then click on Club Racing Board and then click on Send a Request.

Not sure if that is the only or easiest way to do it but it worked for me.

[Will Velkoff]

What about the cantilevered rear tire? Do we want to try and get rid of that? What could Hoosier provide as an alternative besides running fronts on all four corners?

[Steve Bamford]

I sent in a request to the CRB for a spec tire to be adopted for the class, explaining my reasons.

Please do the same if you want something to be done.

Go to SCCA.com, go to member log in, then resources, then directory, then Boards and Committees and then click on Club Racing Board and then click on Send a Request.

Not sure if that is the only or easiest way to do it but it worked for me.

Tom,

Here is the link I found to use:

http://www.crbscca.com/

Hope this helps.

[John Merriman]

For the hell of it, I looked back over nine years of spec tire posts and have found - suprise, surprise!! -that the overwhelming majority of competitors support reducing tire expenditures via a single spec tire. And the preferance is, by far, to nominate hard compound slicks. Many of the 150 posts in this thread argue very persuasively that the benefits are broad and very significant - to the individual racer, to the FF/CF class and to the sport in general - lower costs, of course, but also better racing, more entrants, less stress on chassis/suspensions....and on and on. Hey, let's face it, the very idea of an amateur racer spending $2,000 per weekend on tires is utterly absurd! One wonders why in the world this problem persisted for so long!

So now...how to get this goal accomplished? Assuming the CRB is responsive, it will then take a huge, united effort - a massive deluge of emails to the SCCA when the Member Input is requested.

FYI, here's a tabulation of number of Posts and Views since 2006

ApexSpeed FF Spec Tire - Posts and Views
2006 - 334 / 23,043
2007 - 18 / 2,169
2009 - 286 / 21,092
2010 - 174 / 17,179
2012 – 25 / 2,166
2013 – 245 / 14,617
2014 – 145 / 7,666
Total Posts = 1,227
Total views = 80,266
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little ancient history for you young-ons! In 1982 or 1983 Buddy Pugliese created his own racing organization in the Northeast- linked with EMRA - and he called it CLUB FORD - now it's the FRCCA. Club Ford rules were similar to the British Pre-'78 - older chassis, no updates and - the prime point in Buddy's mind - HARD TIRES!! He tried to get CF as another Regional Class but SCCA wouldn't buy it. For 1984 a small group of FF guys in the NER proposed CF to the Region and got it approved. Hossier, M&H and Goodyear tires were tested at BRYAR by Norm Marx and Craig Olmstead and matching compounds by all three were approved. The goal was for Regional runners to use ONE SET for the season. That worked....for a while. Then guys started to buy two sets, then three sets..........The rest is history. So in the nine current years, the Apex crowd tuned in 80,266 times to see what's up with spec tires in FF/CF. But the first chapters of the story go back more than thirty years......

[mike g.]

Letter #14606
contents:
Hello,
I am writing to urge consideration of a spec tire for the FF class. I'm sitting out this year because I cannot afford new R35's after 3 heat cycles to stay competitive. This ends up being at least an entire new set each weekend, assuming I have an old set and will accept running 4-6 cycle tires for testing/practice (which isn't healthy to learn a new track, practice).

I moved from CFF to FF to race with more folks. CFF in cendiv was 1-3 cars per event. FF was 5-7. Everyone said "oh, you can run take-offs and cycle thru tires and it isn't that much" - well, it is, it is the biggest cost by far for a season of racing.

I'd be fine with a spec harder tire or least a tire limit per weekend that could offer some parity to those of us who can't spend $800 X 2 on tires for a competitive national weekend.

[Tom Valet]

What about the cantilevered rear tire? Do we want to try and get rid of that? What could Hoosier provide as an alternative besides running fronts on all four corners?

Will, at this point I would not get too particular. You can certainly mention that in your request to the CRB, but all I said was that I supported adoption of a spec tire similar to what has been done in other classes, and requested that the CRB set up a committee to study the issue and report back with recommendations. The reason I cited was excessive tire costs since the withdrawal of Goodyear from the class.

If by some chance they hear from enough of us and do actually take some action, at that point the particulars could be discussed.

[Tom Valet]

John Merriman, thank you for your excellent post. It amazes me as well that from all appearances there is wide support for changing the current open tire rule but for some unexplained reason any attempt in the past to do something never actually gained traction.

I am hoping that the example set by the F1600 Pro Series will give people confidence that a spec tire can work for this class.

[Will Velkoff]

Letter #14607 submitted.

[Matt King]

John Merriman, thank you for your excellent post. It amazes me as well that from all appearances there is wide support for changing the current open tire rule but for some unexplained reason any attempt in the past to do something never actually gained traction.

I think that is because the spec tire advocates (and I would be one) are approaching it from the wrong angle. The SCCA may be a membership organization, but that does not mean members are the most important stakeholder to its leadership. IMO, no spec tire rule will be enacted until is becomes beneficial to the various entrenched vested interests like the tire companies and prep shops that form the club's "shadow government." Get a tire mfg. to champion the issue, and I bet it will happen ASAP. Follow the money!

[problemchild]

I think that is because the spec tire advocates (and I would be one) are approaching it from the wrong angle. The SCCA may be a membership organization, but that does not mean members are the most important stakeholder to its leadership. IMO, no spec tire rule will be enacted until is becomes beneficial to the various entrenched vested interests like the tire companies and prep shops that form the club's "shadow government." Get a tire mfg. to champion the issue, and I bet it will happen ASAP. Follow the money!

Unfortunately, the few poor spec tire programs occurred when the tire was chosen based on commercial interests. When the competitors test and select the tire based on merit, it tends to be a huge success.

BTW, any of the Series running Toyos, are all receiving financial support. At the very least, being a Toyo club racing member gets you a big discount on the price of the tires. That Toyo sponsorship has not been thrashed about here, to this point, would show how good the product is. Should Hoosier become the spec tire supplier, I would prefer they kept tires as inexpensive as possible, and skipped contingencies and prize funds. IMO, that helps everybody.

[Matt King]

Unfortunately, the few poor spec tire programs occurred when the tire was chosen based on commercial interests. When the competitors test and select the tire based on merit, it tends to be a huge success.

I won't dispute that, but it seems that route doesn't have a high likelihood of success in the current environment, as recent attempts have shown.

I do suspect however, that if a tire company came to the SCCA with a pay to play proposal, a spec tire would be adopted rather quickly.