Tires - Again

[Steve Bamford]

Too me, according to the respondents on Apexspeed in this thread, the ones who are mainly against a spec tire have not tried it. Many who have tried or raced in other series seem to be willing to take the step towards a spec tire.

To me I will race whatever you allow me to race on or tell me to race on & we will figure out how to make them work. I will spend the money on new tires if that will help me win but more so, I would really like to have more cars to run against then less. If a spec tire can help I am all for it.

If I know my competitors are on equal tires as myself it is one less thing to worry about & can concentrate on my driving rather then blaming my tires as why I didn't do well.

[Tom Valet]

In fact, there are people running the small rears that have never done any testing. In fact, the cost difference per tire is $54 or $108/set. In fact, you have no reason to argue against the small tire because allowing it does not increase the cost of racing and in fact can decrease it. Shall we continue, or will you concede the point?

You're kidding right Greg?

[problemchild]

They match up with which circumference(s), the small diameter for both, or the small for the 185 and the large for the 205? If someone has bought all their gears for one size, it could mean having to buy new gears to run the other size. Does the 205 mm=8.07" wide tire fit well on the 5.5" rim? Is there a reason not to allow people to choose what they run between the two sizes? Presumably, the 185s are cheaper than the 205s, much like the current small vs rear, which is a reason some people run the smalls.

BTW, most people consider the 45s (or F1600-spec tire) to be more than competitive in the open tire format, so not a likely candidate for a spec tire. There is growing discussion in the Pro Series for a better lasting spec tire. My previous comments were that I believe proper-sized 45s are good for more than double the life of 4X 35 fronts. An ideal spec tire would double that again.

[Josh Pitt]

I have run on street compound sumitomos, hard compound slicks ;American racers

I have not run on the sticky slicks as others who are commenting, since ( to me )it makes no sense to spend that kind of $ on a consumable (for club racing) when its NOT neccesary. I don't have to run on them to know that as long as we are all on the same tire ( whatever tire it is)its equal competition and I expect be competing against the same (speed)group of guys on whatever tire we choose.
if everyone is outfitted with tank tracks(extreme example) it doesn't matter, as long as everyone is using the same tank track.

as marshall9 said in a prior post" fast guys will be the fast guys, slow the guys will be slow guys". I know this to be true from my own experience.

someone (eyerace i think) asked how running $1100 sets of tires is good for racing, I still want to read an answer for that one too.

carry on.

[John LaRue]

An observation that I would make is that a hard compound alone will not provide the results that you are looking for (cost savings). What is as important if not more important is a restriction on the number of tires one can utilize during an event. It seems to me that the Pro 1600/2000 series has the tire rule down about as good as it is going to get.

There is no simple or inexpensive answer now that the horse has left the stall. Karting has gone the same way as club racing...when I started racing karts a set of tires would last half a season or more. The first step into this mess was the small front Continentals that were introduced around 1977 at Barnesville, GA thereafter the Bridgestones turned karting upside down in 1978.

[Steve Bamford]

An observation that I would make is that a hard compound alone will not provide the results that you are looking for (cost savings). What is as important if not more important is a restriction on the number of tires one can utilize during an event. It seems to me that the Pro 1600/2000 series has the tire rule down about as good as it is going to get.

There is no simple or inexpensive answer now that the horse has left the stall. Karting has gone the same way as club racing...when I started racing karts a set of tires would last half a season or more. The first step into this mess was the small front Continentals that were introduced around 1977 at Barnesville, GA thereafter the Bridgestones turned karting upside down in 1978.

John,

I agree that tire restriction would also help out. From someone coming from the Pro Series our tire issue becomes testing tires. We usually use tires left over from a race weekend but after another session or two they are usually done. Some weekends there are many sessions before our first qualifying session starts when the declared tire numbers come into affect. If we used a harder compound then the 45's or so we have then we could save money by not needing to buy a new set other then for the qualifying going forward.

[Raceworks]

Maybe we should matter. Maybe if we mattered, we might come back, seeing a value for our dollar equal to other sanctioning bodies.

I get the point of us not having a voice in the proposal and vote, but am offended by that statement.

That type of elitist attitude just may be why numbers are dwindling.

It wasn't meant to be elitist, it's just a fact of both the rule-making process and the kind of politics that go on in any racing organization.

[Raceworks]

One thing that has not been brought up is how a less grippy tire would affect our lap times and how it would position us to the classes we race with. Right now, we are nearly even with F5. Changing the tire rule would make us slower and harder to pass. It would also make it harder to pass the Vees. We could end up being slower in the corners than the Vees and getting ahead of them on the straight only to hold them up in the corner. When mixed in with FCs, FAs, etc, it is going to make the closing speeds coming up on us that much worse. These changes are not necessarily problems, but it is something that people should keep in mind during the discussion.

I think the long-term idea is that if harder tire increases entries enough we might be grouped with the "wings and things" less often. As far as getting around the Vees, honestly decreasing the closure speeds might be a good thing.

Also, there is a speed vs dollar spent factor when looking at racing classes. A slower tire is going to slow the class down and maybe make it less attractive to people looking to enter the class.

That's harder to gauge. The only thing we might be in direct competition with is F5/F600 right now, and I don't know enough about the other costs on those cars to make a judgement. Besides, I'm biased against motorcycle engines in cars from my experience in Legends cars.

Versus the FV or SRF, which I'd say are sort of in the same "market" as we are, we'd have to be slowed down a LOT (like 10+ seconds) to get within their speed range.

The last thing that came to mind that has not been mentioned is how to police a tire/weekend rule. Club races are not policed to the same extent as Pro races. I am not sure that we could properly keep track of it. An example would be CENDIV's difficulty with keeping track of who is running CENDIV championship stickers. Also, most of the top guys in club racing seem to only use one set of new tires per weekend anyway. You would also have to word it as new tires, as you need to be able to mileage out your old tires as you see fit, so it might mean running an old set in practice or qualifying and a new set for the race. A rule change always needs to be fully thought through.

As I stated earlier, there is already a similar rule in FM & FE, and I'd suggest duplicating that if we wanted to limit tires as well as spec them out.

I know of several front-runners, particularly at the Majors level (but even regional guys), that will put stickers on each day on a two-race weekend. Some of them have been my customers, which I never minded because their takeoffs were still good enough for my purposes later.

[Raceworks]

Here we go...............and yes, I've been drinking......

1. The SCCA will carp and whine......and do nothing about a tire rule for FF..........because

NO STONES

2. They [the SCCA] really don't get it...........they say........at times..........."We're doing this [or that] to hold costs down"..........and then don't deal with other issues that DON'T HOLD COST DOWN.

..........and don't even think about doing the 'tire rule' thing as a regional rule..........the list of excuses will get longer

3. It boils down to this..........if YOU want to run a certain tire, even thought it's slower, in an effort to hold YOUR cost down.........just do it......so you're slower, like the rest of us care......so you don't go home with a trophy.....hey if that bothers you GO BOWLING OR SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S FUN.............

4. If you're in the SCCA and go home at the end of the weekend without out a trophy and also had no fun, give it up. Period.

>>>>>>>>>>Tire rule.......ad nauseum.

And so that you've heard it here first......in case you're too blind to SCCA racing to have already figured it out............if you run a certain tire and change them at the drop of a hat.....and win.............there are some that don't care about your having won........

there is no fun-meter but why else run with the SCCA other than at the Pro level ????

So I can put you on the list as "no change to the current tire rule" then?

[Raceworks]

John,

I agree that tire restriction would also help out. From someone coming from the Pro Series our tire issue becomes testing tires. We usually use tires left over from a race weekend but after another session or two they are usually done. Some weekends there are many sessions before our first qualifying session starts when the declared tire numbers come into affect. If we used a harder compound then the 45's or so we have then we could save money by not needing to buy a new set other then for the qualifying going forward.

Part of the "problem" with the pro series is the extreme amount of track time. On average we get 3 hours (in 6 heat cycles) even without an additional test day (which adds another 1.5-2 hours on top of THAT).

This years' majors tour format, by comparison, gives about 2 hours of track time (in 4 heat cycles).

A double regional weekend in the Southeast averages about 90 minutes (4 heat cycles).

[andyllc]

I will agree with LaRue and some others that restricting the number of tires allowed per weekend will be a good way to control spending. I have run the street tires before and soft slicks and pro series slicks and the R-60's and at the end of the day, new tires are faster, period. So if allowed, new tires will always be good and those that do run new tires will likely still do it. Those that can't, won't. Not much of a change will happen.

If I was not allowed to put on new tires (for example) for a Sunday portion of a doubleheader or could only run 4 (not 6) tires per weekend then that could help cut costs regardless of what tire you ran. It would also likely cut down on the different variations of tires being run as people would know that they had a certain amount of track time to make things work. I am a fan of limiting it to 4 tires and not 6.

[Raceworks]

Selfish thinking? Are you a complete hypocrite? How does allowing people to choose their tire size selfish? Making people run the tire size you want is selfish. If people want to run a 205 or a 185, let them. Why don't we just require everyone to race Swift DB1s? This class is not a spec class. If you want to introduce a rule to decrease the cost of tires, it is fine, but turning around and forcing people to run a more expensive tire on the rear is hypocritical. I am as low budget as it gets. If we can save money by running a smaller rear tire, then I am all for it. If you have the money to spend on bigger rears, good for you.

By the way, if we are going to try for a DOT tire rule, make it a DOT tire, and not one specific brand. Contingency drops when there is only one manufacturer, and they can raise the prices, too. Again, the point is to keep the costs low.

As I stated earlier, in some respects there isn't really that much of a choice in DOT tires unless you want to go to 15" wheels.

So far I've found the following options for DOT tires available in the US.

BF Goodrich G-Force R1S. A non starer as they don't make tires for anything smaller than a 15" wheel.

Hankook Ventus Z214. Narrowest 13" tire is a 225/45, which is way too wide for a 5.5" wheel.

Hoosier R6. Comes in 185/60r13 & 205/60r13 sizes. The 185's are slightly (around 0.6") taller than the current Hoosier slick fronts, and the 205's are about the same diameter as the slick rears

Hoosier R7. So far only available in 16-18" sizes.

Kumho Ecsta V10. Smallest (and only) 13" is a 215/50. You might get this to fit on a 5.5" wide wheel.

Pirelli P Zero. Only comes in 17 & 18" sizes.

Toyo Proxes R888. Comes in 185/60r13 & 205/60r13 sizes. The 185's are a little bit shorter than the Hoosier R6's (21.6 instead of 21.7").

Toyo Proxes RA1. This tire's been around forever. The only avalable 13" tire is a 205/60r13.

Toyo Proxes RR. Only available 13 is a 205/60r13.

Yokohama Advan A048. No tires under 15".

If you're going to have sizes available that are close to what you're running now, the only two options are the Hoosier R6 and Toyo R888.

If the goal is to significantly reduce costs, then the R888 seems to be the best choice: roughly double the tire life of the R45 slicks, and at 2/3 the cost per set (which makes the tire cost 1/3 as much).

By all accounts, the Hoosiers are faster, but cost more and and don't last as long.

Currently you're looking at around $970 a set for slicks, plus mounting & balancing (in the pro series it's $60 a set). A full season of pro races needs a minimum of 6 tires (or 1.5 sets) per race, so for the 14-race, 7 weekend schedule you're looking at a tire budget of just under $11,000 to be competitive.

If you could get Toyos that last 2 weekends a set, you could do the same season on a minimum of just over $3,000. Even if you had to buy a new set of Toyos every weekend (or thought you did), you're still talking about under half the current budget: About $5,300.

[Raceworks]

So far, only one actual PM to me on the survey (thank you, you know who you are). The total "votes" so far is one for spec toyos. Based on 7 other responses here I can glean that there's a total of:

• 1 vote for Spec toyos.
• 5 votes for spec slicks (I think)
• 2 votes for no change (although 1 might have been sarcastic)
• 3 votes for a limit on tire purchases

So, I'll try to make it a bit clearer. The two questions I'd like answered from everyone in FF are (PM me or post your answers here):

What would you LIKE to see for a future tire rule for Formula F in SCCA club racing:

1. No change.
2. A spec hard-compound racing slick (such as the Hoosier R45 or R60).
3. A change to DOT racing tires (any manfuacturer)
4. Spec DOT tire, Hoosier R6
5. Spec DOT tire, Toyo R888

Would you like to see a limit placed on the number of NEW tires you are allowed to use in official qualifying and race sessions? (This rule would be similar to the one used in Formula E and Formula Mazda, where you are only allowed to run a limited number of marked tires. Note that this rule would be worded so that you could use the same set of tires at multiple events if you wanted to):

1. No limit on new tires (in other words, no change).
2. One set of four per race.
3. One set of four per weekend (including double-header events).
4. One set of four for a single-race weekend, a set and a half for double-headers (you get to choose which two you change).

[BURKY]

So far, only one actual PM to me on the survey (thank you, you know who you are). The total "votes" so far is one for spec toyos. Based on 7 other responses here I can glean that there's a total of:

• 1 vote for Spec toyos.
• 5 votes for spec slicks (I think)
• 2 votes for no change (although 1 might have been sarcastic)
• 3 votes for a limit on tire purchases

So, I'll try to make it a bit clearer. The two questions I'd like answered from everyone in FF are (PM me or post your answers here):

What would you LIKE to see for a future tire rule for Formula F in SCCA club racing:

1. No change.
2. A spec hard-compound racing slick (such as the Hoosier R45 or R60).
3. A change to DOT racing tires (any manfuacturer)
4. Spec DOT tire, Hoosier R6
5. Spec DOT tire, Toyo R888

Would you like to see a limit placed on the number of NEW tires you are allowed to use in official qualifying and race sessions? (This rule would be similar to the one used in Formula E and Formula Mazda, where you are only allowed to run a limited number of marked tires. Note that this rule would be worded so that you could use the same set of tires at multiple events if you wanted to):

1. No limit on new tires (in other words, no change).
2. One set of four per race.
3. One set of four per weekend (including double-header events).
4. One set of four for a single-race weekend, a set and a half for double-headers (you get to choose which two you change).

Maybe one of the mods can make this a poll.

[TimH]

Yokohama Advan A048. No tires under 15".

They aren't advertised, but we're getting them in 185/60r13 and 205/60r13, just like the Toyos and at a similar price. Some of us think they're a hair quicker. They certainly wear very, very well.

[Will Velkoff]

FWIW, my tire bill for R60s this year was around 650.

Id say lets get everyone on R60s, without a cantilevered rear to start. I would have no problem running a DOT tire though if it got cars out playing more. The 3 to 5 heat cycles for R35s or Pro1600 tires is just plain ridiculous. Usuallu I feel my R60s drop a few tenths after several cycles and not significantly until 15 plus cycles.

[Steve Bamford]

Sam,

One thing that was not mentioned if the Toyo or other treaded tire was used there is no need for a separate set of rain tires. That helps reduce your tire cost however the grip level is not as good as a purpose built rain tire.

[GAC]

Is there enough tread left when it is shaved to still use it as a wet, or would you need unshaved ones?

[Steve Bamford]

Is there enough tread left when it is shaved to still use it as a wet, or would you need unshaved ones?

In Canada we don't shave them, there is no advantage that we have seen from shaving them that I am aware of.

Running a brand new set in the rain is disadvantagous as a decent used set gives better overall grip.

[Matt King]

I have run in a class that used Toyo RA1 radials as a spec tire, and from my experience, you had to run shaved tires in the dry and unshaved in the wet, so you still needed two sets. Trying to run unshaved tires in the dry to extend tread life was ugly, and shaved tires in the wet were not much better than slicks. If shaving is not allowed, then it might be a different story.

[problemchild]

In Canada we don't shave them, there is no advantage that we have seen from shaving them that I am aware of.

Running a brand new set in the rain is disadvantagous as a decent used set gives better overall grip.

With our light cars and high pressures, we have not seen the advantages of worn Toyo tires that the street car guys see. Having newer tires for wet conditions is definitely preferable, although I try to get a few laps on them to remove the sticker glue and mold nibs before using them in the rain. I think I explained it well in an earlier post.
Post 39 - When you're running the Toyos, you can easily own just 8 wheels. We normally keep 4 new or almost new tires as spares for wet weather. If we get too thin on the primaries or damage one, we just rotate the deeper treaded tires in and buy new ones, one or two at a time. At Toronto last weekend, we were running a mix of tires purchased over a 3 year period. The Street car guys claim they are faster when worn out, but we don't like the last 5%, nore the initial mold release removal laps. Any performance difference between 99% and 5% wear is marginal and debatable. As a man of logic, I cannot argue that there is no theoretical performance gain, but it is certainly minimal on cars of our weight.

Without the cantilever sidewalls, virtually any tire shop can do mounting/dismounting.

I am not pushing for any particular option, but trying to provide honest info based on running various street radials on formula cars since 1981, and specific experience with the Toyos recently. Considering I also have prepped winning cars on the pro spec Hoosiers, and with four front tires in Majors events, I think I am as experienced as anybody in this field. A spec tire is absolutely workable for FF. I believe there are several good options available. The biggest obstacles are misinformation and fear-mongering warnings from people that like their budget advantages and those with tire sponsorships. The average club racer, like Greg, will be the ones that benefit most.

[Tom Valet]

I have run in a class that used Toyo RA1 radials as a spec tire, and from my experience, you had to run shaved tires in the dry and unshaved in the wet, so you still needed two sets. Trying to run unshaved tires in the dry to extend tread life was ugly, and shaved tires in the wet were not much better than slicks. If shaving is not allowed, then it might be a different story.

In Canada shaving of the tires is not allowed.

[Swift17]

BTW, most people consider the 45s (or F1600-spec tire) to be more than competitive in the open tire format, so not a likely candidate for a spec tire. There is growing discussion in the Pro Series for a better lasting spec tire. My previous comments were that I believe proper-sized 45s are good for more than double the life of 4X 35 fronts. An ideal spec tire would double that again.

I have run on street compound sumitomos, hard compound slicks ;American racers

I have not run on the sticky slicks as others who are commenting, since ( to me )it makes no sense to spend that kind of $ on a consumable (for club racing) when its NOT neccesary. I don't have to run on them to know that as long as we are all on the same tire ( whatever tire it is)its equal competition and I expect be competing against the same (speed)group of guys on whatever tire we choose.
if everyone is outfitted with tank tracks(extreme example) it doesn't matter, as long as everyone is using the same tank track.

as marshall9 said in a prior post" fast guys will be the fast guys, slow the guys will be slow guys". I know this to be true from my own experience.

someone (eyerace i think) asked how running $1100 sets of tires is good for racing, I still want to read an answer for that one too.

carry on.

Is it NOT really that complicated - in my specific type of work in my profession - I often need to take very complicated matters/issues and try to present them to an independent group and have them form a favorable consensus.

Query, again - Why not R60 compound in Pro Tire configuration for FF, ProFF Club FF ?

.... because ? (leaving profit, capitalism, recurring income and consumable addiction out of the reply )

[Peter Olivola]

Organization Operations 101: You haven't been able to coalesce sufficient support for a single solution. This appears to leadership/management as chaos.

Query, again - Why not R60 compound in Pro Tire configuration for FF, ProFF Club FF ?

.... because ? (leaving profit, capitalism, recurring income and consumable addiction out of the reply )

[problemchild]

Organization Operations 101: You haven't been able to coalesce sufficient support for a single solution. This appears to leadership/management as chaos.

Leadership/management should have replaced the open tire rule with spec tires in the junior formula classes twenty years ago, long before tires cost $1100/set and car counts had plummeted. That is why SCCA is in so much trouble and organizing festivals where only 40 cars will show up. 75% of Formula Vee racers want spec tires but SCCA ignored the request.
Management may be an accurate reference, but leadership certainly is not!

Thanks to EJ, Tom, and others who speak up with efforts to make a difference.

[Steve Bamford]

Is it NOT really that complicated - in my specific type of work in my profession - I often need to take very complicated matters/issues and try to present them to an independent group and have them form a favorable consensus.

Query, again - Why not R60 compound in Pro Tire configuration for FF, ProFF Club FF ?

.... because ? (leaving profit, capitalism, recurring income and consumable addiction out of the reply )

I would vote for EJ's idea of the R60.

Thinking it over wouldn't it also benifit someone like Hoosier to have to produce only one tire for the FF class? Less stock, easier to manufacture one tire in larger runs, etc.

If the SCCA approached Hoosier along with the Pro Series I would imagine a multi year deal could be made with keeping prices in check.

While I believe a DOT tire would offer more life I think moving to a spec tire is a tough enough sell & we should start with a slick to make it easier for people to accept.

[S Lathrop]

Leadership/management should have replaced the open tire rule with spec tires in the junior formula classes twenty years ago, long before tires cost $1100/set and car counts had plummeted. That is why SCCA is in so much trouble and organizing festivals where only 40 cars will show up. 75% of Formula Vee racers want spec tires but SCCA ignored the request.

SCCA did have a spec tire for FF in Nationals. It worked so well that it was abolished after one season with a use rule. The use rule was dropped the following season.

[EACIII]

I would be cautious about going with a street tire. 13" street tires are quickly disappearing from the market. Ask folks that have old cars how hard it is to get tires for them. We pick a street tire and it may be gone from the market in 3 or 4 years.

I believe the best choose would be a spec race tire like the F1600/R45 or R60.

Ed

[Tom Valet]

Is it NOT really that complicated - in my specific type of work in my profession - I often need to take very complicated matters/issues and try to present them to an independent group and have them form a favorable consensus.

EJ,

What I have to come to realize is that most people in this class dont want to make a decision about this type of issue, because they feel they dont know what the right decision would be. They want to be TOLD what to do, presumably by others who do know what the right decision is.

The 2010 proposal for a spec tire failed not because of wide opposition to it or lack of a consensus by the racers, but because of overall silence by the racers in FF. The next year, Mike Rand TOLD the FF Pro racers there will be a spec tire, there will be a tire limit, there will be no skinny rears. Nobody complained, nobody boycotted the series. Instead it was embraced as a great concept. It is still a great concept, other than the fact that the price of Hoosiers has risen dramatically now that they have a monopoly on FF cantilevered slicks in the US.

[Tom Valet]

SCCA did have a spec tire for FF in Nationals. It worked so well that it was abolished after one season with a use rule. The use rule was dropped the following season.

Steve how many years ago was that, 20? More? As I understand it, that tire rule failed because of personalities and politics and not because of any inherent flaw in the concept. Is there anything from that prior experience that would argue against a tire rule now?

The racers of every other class that has a spec tire LOVE their tire rule. No reason why it cant work in FF too.

[S Lathrop]

Steve how many years ago was that, 20? More? As I understand it, that tire rule failed because of personalities and politics and not because of any inherent flaw in the concept. Is there anything from that prior experience that would argue against a tire rule now?

The racers of every other class that has a spec tire LOVE their tire rule. No reason why it cant work in FF too.

It was in the middle '70's. Goodyear was the tire. It failed because it did not improve the tire situation at all. The tire use rule failed for the same reason. It did not fail for the reasons you describe.

Prior to the Goodyear gum balls, we ran Firestone slicks. They were good for a season. They even had to be cycled a few times before they were optimum.

For most of my time working as a race engineer, I have worked in series with a spec tire. The very best was the Firestone tires for Indy Lights. Over nearly 20 years, I never encountered a single bad tire or one that did not perform as I expected. For super speedways, the rules required that we have at least 4 new tires for a race weekend. Otherwise I and many others would have used one set of tires for all the super speedways.

The second best tire is the Hoosier tires used in the pro FC series. An interesting exercise would be to see how the Hoosier Radial FC tires hold up on a FF. You would have to change wheels but eliminating the cantilevered tires would be a big improvement.

If you go with a street tire, you will be facing a significant engineering job to get your cars to work well on what ever you choose. If you make the market unattractive to tire manufacturers because the volume is so low, you may not have race tires available.

Think about the logistics of supplying a spec tire for FF across the country. Maybe you should just use the SRF spec tire and be done with the discussion.


You may be arguing about where to place the deck chairs on a sinking ship.

[Tom Valet]

Steve, thanks for the history and for your perspective which I know everyone values.

I thought you were referring to the FF tire use rule (race on qualifying tires) that was in effect for a short time maybe 20 years ago and was rescinded because of what I am told were politics and personalities.

With Bill having just run the Toyos in June on our car, I agree 100% with you that racers would have to make adjustments to adapt their car and their driving to a street tire. But the Canadian guys have done so and they love the tires. My personal preference would be for a dedicated race tire, maybe a radial, but like Steve Bamford said, we will race on whatever tire we are told to race on (as long as it doesnt cost over $1000 a set)

You may be right, perhaps this is tilting at windmills, but it is something I feel is worth fighting for. With a Honda engine and spec tires, the major running costs of an FF would fall dramatically. Shops might actually be able to rent them to racers which they cant do now. And lots of people including us would bring their cars out of retirement.

[S Lathrop]

You may be right, perhaps this is tilting at windmills, but it is something I feel is worth fighting for. With a Honda engine and spec tires, the major running costs of an FF would fall dramatically. Shops might actually be able to rent them to racers which they cant do now. And lots of people including us would bring their cars out of retirement.

The compound on the Hoosier Radial for the pro FC series is the 35 compound. Hoosier makes longer lasting compounds. Maybe switching to a common tire design with FC and going with a harder compound may be a solution. The FC tire will last over 200 miles. And the lap time difference is not all that great between new and 200 mile tires.

[Brian C in Az]

So far, only one actual PM to me on the survey (thank you, you know who you are). The total "votes" so far is one for spec toyos. Based on 7 other responses here I can glean that there's a total of:

• 1 vote for Spec toyos.
• 5 votes for spec slicks (I think)
• 2 votes for no change (although 1 might have been sarcastic)
• 3 votes for a limit on tire purchases

So, I'll try to make it a bit clearer. The two questions I'd like answered from everyone in FF are (PM me or post your answers here):

What would you LIKE to see for a future tire rule for Formula F in SCCA club racing:

1. No change.
2. A spec hard-compound racing slick (such as the Hoosier R45 or R60).
3. A change to DOT racing tires (any manfuacturer)
4. Spec DOT tire, Hoosier R6
5. Spec DOT tire, Toyo R888

Would you like to see a limit placed on the number of NEW tires you are allowed to use in official qualifying and race sessions? (This rule would be similar to the one used in Formula E and Formula Mazda, where you are only allowed to run a limited number of marked tires. Note that this rule would be worded so that you could use the same set of tires at multiple events if you wanted to):

1. No limit on new tires (in other words, no change).
2. One set of four per race.
3. One set of four per weekend (including double-header events).
4. One set of four for a single-race weekend, a set and a half for double-headers (you get to choose which two you change).

I am not an SCCA member mainly due to the costs of SCCA racing vs the costs of racing in our regional organization. This reason should be good enough for the SCCA to reconsider where it has taken FF and Club racing. Our regional group is growing even though our state's economy is not recovering as quickly as the rest of the country. So the SCCA should ask itself, "Why is their group growing when most of the SCCA FF fields are shrinking?" The short answer is the cost of racing and the cost of being competitive. Unlimited tire budgets make for unequal racing within the FF class. The spec Toyo does 2 things. First, it lowers racing costs. Second, it is a great equalizer. Now I know (as others have also mentioned) that the guys with unlimited funds do not have an advantage in the tire department and the engine. The class just became more competitive.

It is interesting that our engines are extremely regulated with the intent to keep costs down and keep everyone competitive. Why do people argue that a spec DOT tire won't do the same for the class?

If the SCCA would adopt a spec DOT tire, I know that there are at least a dozen local guys that would join and participate in the SCCA. That should be considered by the SCCA.
Lower costs + more equal equipment = larger membership numbers….

[Brian C in Az]

I would be cautious about going with a street tire. 13" street tires are quickly disappearing from the market. Ask folks that have old cars how hard it is to get tires for them. We pick a street tire and it may be gone from the market in 3 or 4 years.

I believe the best choose would be a spec race tire like the F1600/R45 or R60.

Ed

Toyo is sponsoring the race series in Canada on their 13" street radial. Why not embrace it while they are offering it? Let's reward Toyo for sponsoring the racing. I heard that they renewed their sponsorship for 5 years. We should get onboard now instead of doing nothing until it is too late.

[stuart jackson]

What about running the same tire as British F1600 and Australia? It is an AVON, and used for both wet and dry. They last for 3 or more weekends,

[Peter Olivola]

Lamenting what did or didn't happen in the past is just another indication of the chaos that works against change.

Leadership/management should have replaced the open tire rule with spec tires in the junior formula classes twenty years ago, long before tires cost $1100/set and car counts had plummeted. That is why SCCA is in so much trouble and organizing festivals where only 40 cars will show up. 75% of Formula Vee racers want spec tires but SCCA ignored the request.
Management may be an accurate reference, but leadership certainly is not!

Thanks to EJ, Tom, and others who speak up with efforts to make a difference.

[Ian Lenhart]

With our light cars and high pressures, we have not seen the advantages of worn Toyo tires that the street car guys see. Having newer tires for wet conditions is definitely preferable, although I try to get a few laps on them to remove the sticker glue and mold nibs before using them in the rain. I think I explained it well in an earlier post.
Post 39 - When you're running the Toyos, you can easily own just 8 wheels. We normally keep 4 new or almost new tires as spares for wet weather. If we get too thin on the primaries or damage one, we just rotate the deeper treaded tires in and buy new ones, one or two at a time. At Toronto last weekend, we were running a mix of tires purchased over a 3 year period. The Street car guys claim they are faster when worn out, but we don't like the last 5%, nore the initial mold release removal laps. Any performance difference between 99% and 5% wear is marginal and debatable. As a man of logic, I cannot argue that there is no theoretical performance gain, but it is certainly minimal on cars of our weight.

Without the cantilever sidewalls, virtually any tire shop can do mounting/dismounting.

.

Marginal difference between 99% and 5% tread wear - hard to beat this! Even with a R60 you will be still counting heat cycles and spending more per set.
Why not unify North America with a spec tire so racers can cross the border in either direction and increase grids. Why not run the same tire on the next generation of spec racer fords, formula first, FC so a tire dealer may actually show up to the race track again.

What about a series that, equalizes a FC / CFC(restrictor and weight), FF / CFF, F1st (speed up using a different carb and exhaust if that would do it? and lower weight) and all race on a spec Toyo and everyone is racing each other for position. I'm just thinking of new ways to put some life back into club racing. The last cendiv divisional I attended was sad.

[Tom Valet]

What about running the same tire as British F1600 and Australia? It is an AVON, and used for both wet and dry. They last for 3 or more weekends,

Stuart, do you know what a set of Avons costs? I dint know for sure but have read that they are expensive.

[Tim Webb]

The street tire works in Canada. They have good fields. They run the same cars as we do.

Why not go with the same tire? Most likely we won't, if there is any change at all, becasue that would be too easy and too cost effective.