Class Name Change?

[Amon]

Jim,

No need for a bigger motor, just remove the restrictor
Plate for another 20 hp. I'm not sure how much that
Would effect reliability with the removal of it?

Mark

[BLS]

Removing the restrictor will double (or >) the cost of competitive FST engines.

[Bill Bonow]

just remove the restrictor
plate for another 20 hp.

Removing the restrictor will double (or >) the cost of competitive FST engines.

Umm, who told you these as a basis of fact, or did you both forget to use smiley faces?

[Amon]

Bill,

I thought that was a number that Jim S. Mentioned
many years ago when FST was just starting?

Mark

[jim murphy]

Removing the restrictor will double (or >) the cost of competitive FST engines.

And this is the very reason for a larger motor so that higher rpm's are NOT needed to catch up to the F5's. Reliability is still there. 1800cc, 2.0L or whatever it takes to get reliable, reasonable cost, lower rpm speed. This is critical for the class future.

Jim

[sracing]

Bill,

I thought that was a number that Jim S. Mentioned
many years ago when FST was just starting?

Mark

Nope. Not me. At best maybe 5 HP. And another 300 usable RPM. BTW that will hurt the class AND increase costs. 20 HP will kill it even faster for many reasons.. I would post lots of reasons but I am on the smart phone and it is a pain typing... Later..

[BLS]

Umm, who told you these as a basis of fact, or did you both forget to use smiley faces?

I'll double up on the smiley's

My opinion, remove the restrictor and the horsepower race begins (assuming national/majors status). Since we have FV engines running as much as 12K, doubling the cost of a 4.5K motor doesn't seem so far fetched.

YMMV

[Amon]

Sorry Jim, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Mark

P.S.: Actually the motor was for sale for $11K and it's the only one i can think of
that came close to that asking amount.

[BLS]

Quicksilver said in that thread they would not build one for less than 12K. I know you can get engines for less.

My point regarding the restrictor is that development past a certain level nets next to nothing, reducing the incentive to do so and keeping costs down. Remove it and the development race begins. I think the restrictor along with the long lasting spec tires make the FST a very affordable car to own and race.

I personally don't think speed is the issue. The NJ Majors has 4 FV's running this weekend. FF has 3. F500 has a few more, 3 finishers and 3 that did not start. Why would anyone think that a much faster FST is the ticket to improved car counts?

[jim murphy]

Quicksilver said in that thread they would not build one for less than 12K. I know you can get engines for less.

My point regarding the restrictor is that development past a certain level nets next to nothing, reducing the incentive to do so and keeping costs down. Remove it and the development race begins. I think the restrictor along with the long lasting spec tires make the FST a very affordable car to own and race.

I personally don't think speed is the issue. The NJ Majors has 4 FV's running this weekend. FF has 3. F500 has a few more, 3 finishers and 3 that did not start. Why would anyone think that a much faster FST is the ticket to improved car counts?

Because that is what the outsiders told us for the past 20+ years when they said that they were NOT interested in FV and, maybe, might be interested in FST IF it was a national class and have speeds CLOSER TO F5's so that they don't have to look in their mirrors all the time for the faster class cars, including F5's. The point is to look at your class from the outsider's point of view - they are the potential market for growth in the number of drivers (not races or entries).
Having a restrictor on the bigger motors is a given in my view.

[BLS]

Jim,

I have no doubt the people you talked with had those feelings. It is hard to know what that means with respect to FST. There are certainly those who wish to drive in faster classes and have no interest in the slower classes. So, if you speak to them you will get the answer you got, need to speed up FST. OTOH, the real target (IMO) are the beginners, budget racers, and the racers that just love ACVW racing with our funky swing axles, torsion arm fronts, and skinny tires pulling 1.7Gs, and handling as well or better than most of those non winged cars. Somewhere in that group is a subset that are not concerned if the top speed is 120 or 135 and they are the only ones that will be interested.

My question "Why would anyone think that a much faster FST is the ticket to improved car counts?" reflects this. I really doubt having the FST car at 130 will increase car counts unless the speed is free. If you can speed the cars up and keep the cost down and not start a HP race, well OK. I believe that will be difficult.

The FST class is darn near perfect from a first time / low budget perspective IMO. I personally do not see how you improve it. Of course I have not driven one yet.

I'm changing my "vote" from FV1600 to FSV.

Regards,
Barry

[sracing]

I don't think that using any F500 input is good data for making FV or FST a success.

FST hasn't even fully caught on in the US and already people want to make it into SV?

Anybody remember what happened to the SV class? Remember how big the field was when the green came out? Remember how little it was when the checker came out? Remember how much $ you needed to compete?

Leave the FST package alone. You will only screw it up. Giving it another 20+ HP will increase the price by 50% and decrease the running gear longevity by 50%. (Not to mention tires etc.) NOT A SINGLE additional person will come to a FST like class just because it might be as fast as a F5 (especially when it would be twice as expensive to buy and operate. It is plenty fast for it's current construction and safety.

I have no doubt that some kid with a sugar daddy wants a car with big tires and goes 150 mph. FST is NOT the place for him. If he has the money available to him he certainly will not REALLY pick an ACVW to expand his career. The "outsiders" that told you these stories knew nothing about racing and less about FV/FST.

It's AIR COOLED and another few thousand BTU will have to be dumped. You also do not understand the relationships between HP, TORQUE and RPM. I have built literally dozens of 1200 through 2400 cc engines for lots of venues. (from 40 to 200 HP. I KNOW what works and doesn't. You will also need a new transaxle, probably wheels, to match an existing tire and more.

DO NOT ignore almost 10 years of testing FST. ESPECIALLY when you have that many plus years of testing SV and seeing it fail..

[sracing]

Barry, We posted on top of each other?

I support your opinion with the exception of FSV as a name. Ugly memories of a class screwed up by sponsors and rule makers.... FST : (US and AUS, NZ, etc.) A ground roots effort class of fun and affordability....

[BLS]

Barry, We posted on top of each other?

Apparently so...

Your comment says it better than mine. I should have put a smiley on the FSV. My only reason for switching the name would be to place it closer to FV. I think FST is fine though. The name doesn't really matter. My opinion, the only thing holding the class back from improved car counts is the regional status. YMMV.

I did love the FSV air cooled cars...

Barry

[rave motorsports]

But I would have to change my vinyl letters. I love my vinyl. I have run this vinyl for years and it's perfectly good. Do you have any idea how expensive updating vinyl is!
I AM JOKING. LOL.

[grapefarmeral]

In Canada FV is F1200 and it seems to work ...not a mouthful

I'm not going to go back through all post relating to FV/FST, there are too many... Bill correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember you saying that FST was very happy not being a Nationals/Majors class..why the change of heart..

[sracing]

But I would have to change my vinyl letters. I love my vinyl. I have run this vinyl for years and it's perfectly good. Do you have any idea how expensive updating vinyl is!
I AM JOKING. LOL.

I have been accused of "PUSHING" the FST class for years just to make money. You have finally discovered the real reason. Vinyl Graphics are a big profit margin. Now that I think about it, lets make it FV1200ACVW and FST1600ACVW.

[rave motorsports]

Lol Jim. Isn't it okay to push a class to make money? We are out here in the Midwest. Last I knew that's what made America great was working hard and pushing to make money.

[jim murphy]

"I don't think that using any F500 input is good data for making FV or FST a success."

Please re-read what I posted - these comments came from outsiders over many years. It is their view of your class that counts. We listened to what they said to us about F500 back then: "Replace the 2 stroke snowmobile drivetrain with a motorcycle drivetrain and you would have the best bang for the buck formula class in the club". The F500 MC car count continues to grow with a healthy mix of newcomers to the club.

Make FST, as is, a national class and see if newcomers are attracted to it.

Jim

[Matt King]

It seems obvious that with the changes to the regional/national structure and the reduction of many regional class only events, that anyone owning an FST should be able to race it at any SCCA event that is open to formula cars. What would be the argument against this given the current event format?

[butch deer]

In Canada FV is F1200 and it seems to work ...not a mouthful

I'm not going to go back through all post relating to FV/FST, there are too many... Bill correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember you saying that FST was very happy not being a Nationals/Majors class..why the change of heart..

Because of changes made by the SCCA the regional racing program is being drastically reduced in the central and Great lakes divisions. I personally would like more opportunities to race close to home as travel costs are a huge percentage of my racing budget. I really don't care if I ever go to another Run Offs as the event has priced itself out of my budget. There are however Majors in my back yard with unsubscribed race groups that my car could easily fit in with. Nearly everyone who normally runs with the FST group has or is eligible for a full competition license,it's only our cars that are not legal. What I would like to see are some "Majonals" something like the "Rationals of the recent past.
Example- Upcoming June Sprints at Road America(2 1/2 hours from home) has 22 entries in the F500/FV group 2 on a track than can easily start 80+. FST would fit right into that race group.

[sracing]

"Please re-read what I posted - these comments came from outsiders over many years.

I did. Now it's your turn to go back and read what I said...

[jim murphy]

I did. Now it's your turn to go back and read what I said...

I did read it, acknowledged your post and answered above:
"Make FST, as is, a national class and see if newcomers are attracted to it."
I would be curious to see what happens because not being a national class
repeatedly over the years gave outsiders pause.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Because of changes made by the SCCA the regional racing program is being drastically reduced in the central and Great lakes divisions. I personally would like more opportunities to race close to home as travel costs are a huge percentage of my racing budget. I really don't care if I ever go to another Run Offs as the event has priced itself out of my budget. There are however Majors in my back yard with unsubscribed race groups that my car could easily fit in with. Nearly everyone who normally runs with the FST group has or is eligible for a full competition license,it's only our cars that are not legal. What I would like to see are some "Majonals" something like the "Rationals of the recent past.
Example- Upcoming June Sprints at Road America(2 1/2 hours from home) has 22 entries in the F500/FV group 2 on a track than can easily start 80+. FST would fit right into that race group.

Butch,

This is no place for commonsense, logical remarks like this. SCCA is not a commonsense run organization....... I'm sure this would conflict with someones agenda.