Do not change to disc's

[Amon]

Mark,

Not to place words in Bill Bonow's mouth, but I believe Bill and others who are involved in
the FST program have no desire to make it a national class and have worked to keep it
a regional only class. I can't remember the reason, but I'm sure Bill or Jim at SR can provide us
with the reasoning behind their thoughts.

Mark

[Stan Clayton]

Ohhhhh Noooooo Stan mentioned 1600 engines !!!!

Yeah I did...

Mark's suggestion is one possible solution, but IMO would perpetuate the bifurcation of FV, so I would rather see the CRB and BoD exercise their leadership roles to formulate, communicate and implement a plan for FV's future as they eventually did for FF. It became public knowledge last year that the last remaining sources of new 1200 engine parts were ceasing production, so why wait?

So if engine parts are going to become problematic I would rather see the Boards set a firm timetable for moving the class to the new engine so people can plan accordingly. For instance, announce that 1600 engines will be permitted in FV starting January 1st, 201x at 10xx minimum pounds. People could then plan accordingly and fence sitters would see that the class has a definite future. Serious national competitors would be the early adopters and others would follow quickly. I would also recommend in the strongest possible terms MUCH tighter engine prep rules to curb the engine wars and price escalation the class has seen in recent years.

But that's just my opinion, of course. That and two bucks will get you a cuppa coffee most places.

[Bill Bonow]

.........others who are involved in the FST program have no desire to make it a national class and have worked to keep it a regional only class. I can't remember the reason, but I'm sure Bill or Jim at SR can provide us
with the reasoning behind their thoughts.

I'd go to this thread as a reference. The first 3 or 4 posts should cover it.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59627

In short, getting a new class into the GCR is a gauntlet. Getting in as a Regional class makes it slightly easier. Most of us witnessed what happened to SM once National class was granted, the cars got more competitive and so did cost/value. That will happen no matter what class your in.

Bring us up to 2014 and Regional/National is gone. The only thing FST can't do is Majors/Run-ons. Many of us would like to go to Majors (June Sprints, ect) and a few would like to go to the Run-ons.

As a pretty general/non-official statement, I'd bet most FST guys would love to change the name to FV 1600 if it meant access to Majors/Run-ons.

My personal soapbox is not about classes, it's about race group strength. Many of you are now in Divisions that put FV into the "anything without doors" race group and then spend the weekend watching your mirrors. Not fun or worthwhile to me. I'd much rather focus on how to build and support small bore open wheel (FF, CFF, F5, FV, FST) race group.

Stan,

In that past thread, you said it (class name change) just needs to be proposed to the CRB ?

[Mark Filip]

Mark,

Not to place words in Bill Bonow's mouth, but I believe Bill and others who are involved in
the FST program have no desire to make it a national class and have worked to keep it
a regional only class. I can't remember the reason, but I'm sure Bill or Jim at SR can provide us
with the reasoning behind their thoughts.

Mark

Not to piss anyone off but that may be the reason there is so few and the growth has been slow. Let's face it FST has been around for what 10-12 years now? There should no reason that the class does not have huge numbers yet and only has a minimal amount of cars in 1 area of the USA

[Bill Bonow]

Not to piss anyone off but that may be the reason there is so few and the growth has been slow.

Mark,

I don't think you're all that far off the mark (no pun intended). The choice to become a "Regional Only" class was a real double edged sword. A "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

The first FST was on the track in 2002 (12 years), but until 2009, we raced under the "catch all" FS category. So FST is really only 6 GCR years old. To be fair, still plenty of time to grow.

I will challenge your (1) area statement. Our Hoosier FST series is 10 years old this year and it regularly holds races in (3) SCCA Divisions (CenDiv, GLDiv and NE Div). We have also held races in SE Div as well and over the past 9 years average better than 10 cars per event. I'd ask that you review this post to get a good idea of how many cars and where they are located. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...67&postcount=1

I guess your geographic definition of (1) area could be different from mine. I tend to think of Divisions as (1) area.

[rave motorsports]

We are growing FST here in the Midwest currently with our young driver development program. We all would live to take it to the Majors level. Young drivers here are excited about FST/FV 1600. They look at the Miata classes and most then turn to us because they want to drive what looks to them like a " real race car ". Give us a couple more years and Midwest FST will have as many cars as the Central guys do.

I'd go to this thread as a reference. The first 3 or 4 posts should cover it.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59627

In short, getting a new class into the GCR is a gauntlet. Getting in as a Regional class makes it slightly easier. Most of us witnessed what happened to SM once National class was granted, the cars got more competitive and so did cost/value. That will happen no matter what class your in.

Bring us up to 2014 and Regional/National is gone. The only thing FST can't do is Majors/Run-ons. Many of us would like to go to Majors (June Sprints, ect) and a few would like to go to the Run-ons.

As a pretty general/non-official statement, I'd bet most FST guys would love to change the name to FV 1600 if it meant access to Majors/Run-ons.

My personal soapbox is not about classes, it's about race group strength. Many of you are now in Divisions that put FV into the "anything without doors" race group and then spend the weekend watching your mirrors. Not fun or worthwhile to me. I'd much rather focus on how to build and support small bore open wheel (FF, CFF, F5, FV, FST) race group.

Stan,

In that past thread, you said it (class name change) just needs to be proposed to the CRB ?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,

In that past thread, you said it (class name change) just needs to be proposed to the CRB ?

That's certainly where I'd start.

[Matt King]

As a pretty general/non-official statement, I'd bet most FST guys would love to change the name to FV 1600 if it meant access to Majors/Run-ons.

Why would you need to change the name to change the status? What is the process now to make the class eligible for Majors?

[Bill Bonow]

Guys,

I don't want this thread to meander too much. Yes, I'm just as guilty as the rest.

The most recent class name topic has started over at the FST area. FV guys are encouraged to post.

I think we were talking about not changing to disc brakes on FV.
My crystal ball is telling me this is not to be a worry.
I see drum brakes in FV's future.

[Mark Filip]

Bill I understand what your saying but to me a average of 10 cars is nothing in perspective. Everywhere else there is 1 maybe 2 on track scattered across the country. If I had to race in 1 or 2 car classes or even 5 I would move on. We need fields double that and what ever it takes we should all strive to get there again. A good starting point is making the classes similar with the name. Change them so they are people know they are similar..... kinda like FF and FC the pro series has them as f1600 and f2000 with each group being the same but different. Start in either class it's your choice. If the skinny tires and drum brakes are not your thing, hey there is another class with fat tires, disc brakes and more power. Either way we can offer a inexpensive open wheel class to new drivers and hopefully have them join us not SM.

[gbmetcalf]

Bill I understand what your saying but to me a average of 10 cars is nothing in perspective. Everywhere else there is 1 maybe 2 on track scattered across the country. If I had to race in 1 or 2 car classes or even 5 I would move on. We need fields double that and what ever it takes we should all strive to get there again. A good starting point is making the classes similar with the name. Change them so they are people know they are similar..... kinda like FF and FC the pro series has them as f1600 and f2000 with each group being the same but different. Start in either class it's your choice. If the skinny tires and drum brakes are not your thing, hey there is another class with fat tires, disc brakes and more power. Either way we can offer a inexpensive open wheel class to new drivers and hopefully have them join us not SM.

I think offering air cooled options to new drivers is a good idea.

G.

[Jim Kleinklaus]

One advantage to getting more racers in vee is the current buyer's market that exists for cars that are not being used--if you want a basic car to start in the class with, they are available and won't break the budget --if a starting racer even HAS a budget. A five grand upgrade going in exceeds what people would pay for a starter roller or even complete car. it's simple math. I sent in my vote to CRB and it is being published in Fastrack-I urge others to do the same

[jpetillo]

One advantage to getting more racers in vee is the current buyer's market that exists for cars that are not being used--if you want a basic car to start in the class with, they are available and won't break the budget --if a starting racer even HAS a budget. A five grand upgrade going in exceeds what people would pay for a starter roller or even complete car. it's simple math. I sent in my vote to CRB and it is being published in Fastrack-I urge others to do the same

Jim, what are you asking the CRB - what are you voting on?

[grapefarmeral]

Jim.. do we know that it's a $5000 upgrade to disc brakes..? I've seen lots of numbers thrown around and if memory serves me right, $1000 to 1200 seems to be the figure if you buy all new parts. Maybe Jim S or Bill B can state what the real cost will be.... If we can't scrounge the parts in the junk yards (or aftermarket suppliers), then disc brakes and ball joint beams aren't the way to go.

A few posts back someone said they replaced all four drums and shoes and the cost was $750.. seems to me that figure is approaching the cost of conversion...plus I'm guessing that a large portion of the $750 was for shoes. Shoes need to be replaced on a regular basis and the cost of shoes as opposed to disc pads is significant...

[Jphoenix]

The $750 brake job breaks down to $300 for new rear drums, $318 for Porterfield shoes front and back, Front drums $100 from SR, plus a couple brake lines, brake fluid, turn the front drums, etc. - probably more than $750, but cheaper than a complete brake job on my Esprit

After two race weekends, I just flipped the shoes and they all still look new and the drums as well, so I think they will last a very long time. Apparently, I don't need any more stopping power - I'm still braking WAY too early - typical FV novice I guess.

[problemchild]

FV and FST are 2 inexpensive classes. FST already has the brakes, ball joint beam and the 1600. Re name the classes FV1200 and FV1600 and leave them. If parts are a problem for certain people they already have a choice to move to FV1600 (FST).

This makes the most sense.
Working together as related classes, they protect race groupings. Formula Alphabet race group is the biggest threat to either class.

[problemchild]

There are many classes that can be cost effective from a car perspective, Vee being one of them, where you can build and own a car for a very reasonable sum.
Vee is actually one of the very few classes that COULD be low cost but there are some issues that would have to change to get me back to Vee and disc brakes is NOT one of them.

How do you evolve the class to $2000 engines, simple ladder-style chassis, $100 shocks, and tires that last forever?

[racinray]

How about this for an idea. Have FV be a regional only class in 2020 and FST as the National class but in the interim FV cars can progressively have the rules changed from 2015 to 2020 to allow drivers to get their cars closer to FST cars -- whether that be disc brakes, engines, wheels and tires, etc. This will give those really serious FV drivers that are currently running Majors (previously Nationals) some time to make the changes and manage their cash flow. It will also allow regional drivers to purchase the take-offs from the National drivers while still knowing that they are going to be able to race their cars without feeling like the have to make the switch. Obviously FST cars could still run at a regional level as well.

Ray

[budawe]

There seems to be some confusion regarding the status of the disc brake proposal so let me take a couple of lines for explanation.
The proposal has moved from the "what do you think" status to a 90 day period of formal membership input prior to submission to the BOD. This proposal is not a done deal until the BOD votes on a formal rule package.

It should be pointed out that the letter system is not a democratic process. It is a process to access membership's position on proposals, not a direct vote. Since there are no formal controls on letter writing, concise conclusions cannot be drawn from mere counts of positive and negative letters. This does not mean that you should not write letters. The next 90 days will likely define the future for vees and no one in the class should not write a letter. I say anyone in the class because the CRB and it's advisory committees often try to authenticate the letters. That means, having your friends and wives write letters probably won't carry much weight. Neither will your letter if you are not an active participant of this class. This was an issue on the "WDYT" letters just written. This does not mean that you can't write a letter as a observer of the class, it just means that it won't carry as much weight with the CRB.

A few pointers regarding letters: If you hold a competition license, mention it; if you currently own a car and are competing, mention it and remember, the BOD won't really see the details of this proposal until the CRB brings the issue to them so writing directly to the BOD while OK, may not yield much response.