Do not change to disc's

[protoform]

THE ONLY WAY TO LET THE CLUB RACING BOARD KNOW THAT THE VEE COMMUNITY DIDN'T WANT DISC BRAKES IS "not to change them". Most of you don't want to spend 3 to 5k on a new set up with disc's. It is simple but hard too. If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race, but don't talk to them, shun them, don't help them. I know this is not the Formula vee way, but it needs to be done. To save the class. I hate to write a letter like this. I thought about it for a few days. I really think this is the beginning of the end for FV. people will change to different racing org. other than SCCA I think they went the correct way in Canada No monster manifolds spec tires Keep the class affordable to people who will never have a GT1 Corvette with a 40 foot motorcoach and a 40 foot trailer with a machine shop inside and 2 paid crew members. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. comes to mind. iF YOU RACE A fv MAKE A COMMENT If you race an fst or any other class we don't want you to make comments about a class you do not race in I have always liked the phrase "we don't need no stinkin fenders" well " we don't need no stinkin disc's"

[B Farnham]

The implementation of disc breaks will likely not have any breaking advantage as the tires are the limiting factor. The only advantage is that camber will be easier to set and you won't get nearly as much camber change in the corners but the 25lbs and added unsprung weight from the wheels should negate any advantage.

As one of the younger guys I can say I'm excited for this and having talked to another younger vee driver he is excited as well. If we're talking about the future of the class then making the cars more attractive and using parts more readily available should help car counts, not hurt them. Change isn't going to please everyone but sometimes its necessary. Its not like the scca will ban link pin beams, you'll still be able to run what you have.

[Matt Clark]

I think this is actually a good thing, honestly. It will take a bit for it to become the desirable setup, but I think most guys do not drive their cars hard enough to really matter. I could be wrong, but mostly guys at the top will be the ones to notice. I'm sticking with drums, but only because I just bought an entire cars worth of a new drum package.

[Dave Woodmancy]

If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race, but don't talk to them, shun them, don't help them. I know this is not the Formula vee way, but it needs to be done. To save the class.

Huh??? That will save FV? It was so simple all this time...

Oh wait, I'm not allowed to participate in this thread. Then again, I do have FV parts in my garage, does that count..

[Daryl DeArman]

If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race, but don't talk to them, shun them, don't help them."

Why don't you just hold your breath until you turn blue? It would likely be about as mature and just as effective in getting your way.

[Bill Bonow]

Hey Peter.

This seemed to fit nicely:

[chrisw52]

THE ONLY WAY TO LET THE CLUB RACING BOARD KNOW THAT THE VEE COMMUNITY DIDN'T WANT DISC BRAKES IS "not to change them". Most of you don't want to spend 3 to 5k on a new set up with disc's. It is simple but hard too. If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race, but don't talk to them, shun them, don't help them. I know this is not the Formula vee way, but it needs to be done. To save the class. I hate to write a letter like this. I thought about it for a few days. I really think this is the beginning of the end for FV. people will change to different racing org. other than SCCA I think they went the correct way in Canada No monster manifolds spec tires Keep the class affordable to people who will never have a GT1 Corvette with a 40 foot motorcoach and a 40 foot trailer with a machine shop inside and 2 paid crew members. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. comes to mind. iF YOU RACE A fv MAKE A COMMENT If you race an fst or any other class we don't want you to make comments about a class you do not race in I have always liked the phrase "we don't need no stinkin fenders" well " we don't need no stinkin disc's"

No I don't have a FV, but seriously I think you attitude stinks.

Your argument is similar to this position "don't talk to anyone who shows up at the next F1600 event running a honda engine. everything must stay Ford kent powered to be a proper F1600."

Times change, you either need to roll with the changes or sell you car and get something different. After all, if you don't like the "new" rules for FV, there are plenty of other classes to choose from.

While the initial conversion cost for a honda are really high (more than the value of my FF), the running costs have proven to be much lower than running a kent.

[Jphoenix]

It's easy for me - I just spent $750 on new drums all around (ICP rear drums) and Porterfield shoes (prices went up on those) so I'm good for at least a couple of years and I'm a novice as well. So, while these threads are interesting to read, they have no real effect on what I will do. Maybe, when I need to buy new drums a couple years in the future, I'll consider going to the discs, but more likely I'll buy a CSR as they look to be great fun!

Jim

[jhenn4716]

THE ONLY WAY TO LET THE CLUB RACING BOARD KNOW THAT THE VEE COMMUNITY DIDN'T WANT DISC BRAKES IS "not to change them".

People voted and the CRB decided with that vote as input. It wasn't Chicago style voting process with the dead lining up. Each vote was from a member of the SCCA.

If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race, but don't talk to them, shun them, don't help them.

As everyone else has said, this is just plain stupid!

I know this is not the Formula vee way

If you don't want to be part of the "formula vee way" as you call it, I suggest you stay home. The rest of us will enjoy racing at the track, sharing a common bond and having a blast.

[Stan Clayton]

Huh??? That will save FV? It was so simple all this time...

Oh yeah, it'll totally save FV!

[Steve Davis]

Stan,
Where do you get those numbers ?? Do you happen to have OVERALL SCCA entries for the same time period?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,
Where do you get those numbers ?? Do you happen to have OVERALL SCCA entries for the same time period?

Steve, I got those numbers from SCCA's official data, which they publish every year. Over the years I have lost some data, and always concentrated on the formula and sports racer classes, but I have overall numbers for national entries since 1983. Regional entries are not always published annually, but when they are they generally track closely with national entries at about a 2:1 to 3:1 ratio. Here are the national data.

[Stan Clayton]

BTW, in case it wasn't clear in post #10, I was not mocking FV. I was joining Dave's sarcastic response to the idea that shunning one's fellow FVers who make different choices to one's own is a legitimate tactic for reviving the class to its former glory.

FV remains fairly healthy, but faces some structural challenges: parts availability, competition from other lower cost formula and sedan classes and a perception of being outdated. I won't lecture FV on how to address those issues, but I will pass along an observation I gleaned from my near decade on the FSRAC and CRB: infraclass warfare is generally the kiss of death.

[craigs]

iF YOU RACE A fv MAKE A COMMENT If you race an fst or any other class we don't want you to make comments about a class you do not race in I have always liked the phrase "we don't need no stinkin fenders" well " we don't need no stinkin disc's"

Pete - sounds like you bought a car and plan to race this year? If so, cant wait to see you back out there. Craig

[Amon]

BTW, in case it wasn't clear in post #10, I was not mocking FV. I was joining Dave's sarcastic response to the idea that shunning one's fellow FVers who make different choices to one's own is a legitimate tactic for reviving the class to its former glory.

FV remains fairly healthy, but faces some structural challenges: parts availability, competition from other lower cost formula and sedan classes and a perception of being outdated. I won't lecture FV on how to address those issues, but I will pass along an observation I gleaned from my near decade on the FSRAC and CRB: infraclass warfare is generally the kiss of death.

Stan,

Hard to disagree with your statement. I wish there was a way to get all of the FV's
that are sitting in garages back on the track. I believe it has more to do with the
state of our country's economy than lack of parts, cost of parts , entry fee's etc..
Someone recently said that we race Vee's and FST's because if we had more money
we'd be racing FC's and FA's , so when a downturn in the economy arrives, it hits our
percentage of expendable racing income in a greater proportion than other classes.
The fact that we're discussing this issue shows that the class still has a strong pulse
and the drivers and others have a desire to see this class thrive once again.

Mark

[jpetillo]

...
I won't lecture FV on how to address those issues, but I will pass along an observation I gleaned from my near decade on the FSRAC and CRB: infraclass warfare is generally the kiss of death.

Thanks for the wake up call. This has been my concern for the past several years. At the track there seems to be no better class for people working together and enjoying each others' company. On the forums, it seems quite the opposite. It's not only the derogatory and nonconstructive comments, but the seemingly sane comments that grossly twist the thruth and rile the players. It not only screams "newcomers beware", but helps to push out people who might be on the fence due to financial, or some other reason. I think this sort of thing may have a more ill effect on the class than any other single item. We should try as a group to do better. John

[protoform]

Any one that has met me will tell you I will help anyone. I guess I am just frustrated at this point. My comments about shunning people with disc brakes would never happen. I am sorry I said that in the heat of my frustration. As far as how many cars we have in the class. back 20 years ago and now Have changed. but I believe if you look at most of the classes you will see the same amount of drop off. except for ssm ita that have grown because of the price of those cars, there are other classes too. I rember going to thompson back in the late 60's and watching a guy drive his Ferrari GTO to the track and tape up the headlights and racing it. now those cars are millions of dollars. Please forgive me for my comments I really love the class and want to see it continue. there are 4 new drivers going to the drivers school at NHMS on the 23-25 I wish them well and hope it continues.

[Tiago Santos]

If some one shows up at the track with disc's on there car they can race

Thanks, that's nice of you!

This is amazing.

[Matt King]

Hard to disagree with your statement. I wish there was a way to get all of the FV's
that are sitting in garages back on the track. I believe it has more to do with the
state of our country's economy than lack of parts, cost of parts , entry fee's etc..

I disagree. As someone who raced in FV and other classes for 10 years with SCCA and NASA and has a Vee that's been parked now for almost 4 years, the economy has nothing to do with it. I can afford to race my race if I want, but even if my salary doubled overnight, it would probably still stay parked. What is out of whack is the overall value proposition of amateur racing, and at least for me, making more money would not put it back in line or change my opinion. There are simply other things I get more enjoyment out of spending my available time and money on. On the other hand, the SCCA has made more than a few decisions that have made it easy for me to walk away and stay away, so I really don't think it's about money at all.

[jhenn4716]

On the other hand, the SCCA has made more than a few decisions that have made it easy for me to walk away and stay away, so I really don't think it's about money at all.

Matt, out of curiosity what has the SCCA done that made it easier for you to walk away? What would it take for you to come back to the track?

[Amon]

" There are simply other things I get more enjoyment out of spending my available time and money on. "

Matt:

I'm sure you're not alone in your thinking, but I've spoken to several drivers recently who would love to come back out and race, but their finances are currently preventing it from happening. I
get my enjoyment from working on my car and spending time at the track competing against the many friends I've made since I joined the SCCA. I can't think of too many other things I'd rather being doing at the moment. There's no right or wrong decision, just different decisions!


Mark

[Matt King]

Matt, out of curiosity what has the SCCA done that made it easier for you to walk away? What would it take for you to come back to the track?

For one thing all the changes to the Regionals/Nationals/Majors and Runoffs format has been confusing and hard to follow, plus increases in license fees and just a general sense that they are out of touch. I know there are many people at the regions and in Topeka who recognize the issues and are trying to get the ship back on track, but I think the SCCA as an organization has a lot of institutional inertia that makes change very difficult.

As far as coming back, the value equation is out of balance for me, and I don't expect the club to be able to change that. The fact of the matter is that many of the fixed costs of amateur racing are not going to get any cheaper, and many of the changes that would improve the experience actually would make it more expensive (like single class run groups, more track time, etc.) So I think the ship has sailed for me. I have converted my competitive energy to bicycle racing and even though that is much more of a time commitment with training, the overall value is a better fit. Plus I even get to race on some of the same tracks, like Milw. Mile and Road America!

[Daryl DeArman]

the economy has nothing to do with it. I can afford to race my race if I want, but even if my salary doubled overnight, it would probably still stay parked. What is out of whack is the overall value proposition of amateur racing, and at least for me, making more money would not put it back in line or change my opinion. There are simply other things I get more enjoyment out of spending my available time and money on.

I couldn't agree more.

After 18 consecutive years of racing 'full' seasons. 6 double weekends was the fewest I ever did in a single season, 24 weekends was the highest. I hung up the helmet, "temporarily", to spend my money and time on more important things. I missed it greatly in beginning, not at all in the middle, and am getting the itch again. I was in a good financial situation when I stopped (2007) and am in an even better one now, but I still have a hard time justifying spending the money given the reward.

[gbmetcalf]

Ok I own a 91 Mysterian I have been slowly getting ready to race. I plan on racing it as is (drum brakes) I also have a Wasp bodied one off FV/FST that I was going to drop a link pin and drums on to do some testing on the chassis but now I think after reading the opening post on this thread I'll be putting a ball joint beam on it with disks. Just because I want to see if it makes a difference. I've dealt with this kind of thinking before and it is NEVER NEVER a positive result. FV drivers are a helpful group as a whole, but to publicly announce that you are going to be a less than cordial to someone that wants to try something different is just juvenile. I am as open minded as the next 55 year old and if I want to try an option that is allowed, I should be able to do so WITHOUT someone trying to make me feel like an outsider. That is one way to lessen our numbers, NOT increase them.

G.

[Daryl DeArman]

In case you missed it:

My comments about shunning people with disc brakes would never happen. I am sorry I said that in the heat of my frustration.

[gbmetcalf]

Yep I did miss that.
Thank Daryl!
But I still am going to do the disks on my second car just the same.
I want as many options to get on the track as I can. I have been waiting to get back on the track waaaaaay too long.

G.

In case you missed it:

[Jnovak]

Been racing for 47 years and still love it. The costs to race have totally skyrocketed and I think that that is the biggest reason why people are staying away. The biggest costs have to do with the racing itself, entries, transport, tires, rooms, etc. frankly I do not know how to change the business model that is the SCCA but would love to see something happen.

There are many classes that can be cost effective from a car perspective, Vee being one of them, where you can build and own a car for a very reasonable sum.
Vee is actually one of the very few classes that COULD be low cost but there are some issues that would have to change to get me back to Vee and disc brakes is NOT one of them.

Brian and I will keep trying to race as that is what we do, but I see the SCCA becoming a sport for the very wealthy in the future and that is a sad state of affairs.

[Mark Filip]

Been racing for 47 years and still love it. The costs to race have totally skyrocketed and I think that that is the biggest reason why people are staying away. The biggest costs have to do with the racing itself, entries, transport, tires, rooms, etc. frankly I do not know how to change the business model that is the SCCA but would love to see something happen.

There are many classes that can be cost effective from a car perspective, Vee being one of them, where you can build and own a car for a very reasonable sum.
Vee is actually one of the very few classes that COULD be low cost but there are some issues that would have to change to get me back to Vee and disc brakes is NOT one of them.

Brian and I will keep trying to race as that is what we do, but I see the SCCA becoming a sport for the very wealthy in the future and that is a sad state of affairs.

[Daryl DeArman]

The costs to race have totally skyrocketed and I think that that is the biggest reason why people are staying away.

Likely so.

I found a way to race when my racing budget was 25% of my income, and I had a mortgage, wife and baby at the time. It was worth it to me.

The last season I raced my entire 6 "doubles" season racing expenditures came to less than 7% of my income...and it was hardly worth it.

It would seem that when we find that it's worth it, we find a way to make it happen. When it's not, we won't.

I'm not sure much can be changed on the income side or the expense side for most, so we must concentrate on increasing the value in the experience. For me that is all about the size of the fields and the closeness of the competition. No way to improve that without eliminating about 20 classes...and that won't happen in my lifetime.

[BLS]

Jay, is it really more than it was? After a 30+ year "break" from FV I am not finding the costs to be higher than before once adjusted for inflation.

Using 1975 as a base year I find that a $3500 FV engine should now cost nearly 16K.

A $150 entry fee for a single race weekend should now cost $675.

$0.57 a gallon gasoline should now run $2.56, so gas is a bit higher but not a killer in comparison.

In FV at least, I just don't see the costs being that out of line with historical numbers.

YMMV.

Barry

[sracing]

Barry,

Just did the exercise from when we started SCCA road racing (~1987) and came to the same conclusions. Actually we are doing quite well as far as the cost of racing goes. I THINK the issue is now that some people believe (true or not) the only way they can have fun is with $2000+ shocks, tires every weekend, 22FT enclosed trailers and RV's. If so, then yes, your racing budget goes way up..

Adjusted for inflation and using the open wheel trailer and family car, etc. The true cost of racing has gone way DOWN..

[Hardingfv32]

I think you guys are failing to acknowledge that wage growth has been flat for 3 decades!

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Not for those of us who started working 30 years ago

Real data though:

Mar 1984 CPI was 103.1, Mar 2014 it was 237.072 (130% increase)

1984 Median US Household income in 1984 was $22,415, today $51,017 (128% increase)

So, things are not significantly more expensive relative to income today than they were 30 years ago.

To support Jay's thoughts on it, average income up 128% since 1984---what about the cost of tires? Entry fees? Engine rebuilds? A new Citation kit?

[BLS]

Jim,

I agree. From my perspective at least, in FV, every item I can remember clearly what the costs were is down after inflation adjustment with the exception of gasoline. This includes tires.

There were quite a few guys that had motor homes and purchased a set (sometimes 2) of tires every weekend even in the days of the dinosaurs. Maybe more do so now, but I would suggest it is because it is less expensive now then it was then.

I could purchase a used motor home as the prices are quite reasonable these days. I just don't want another motorized vehicle to work on. So I plan to stick with using my '93 model 300K Suburban and my old open trailer. I might build an enclosed trailer that fits my needs if I can find the time.

Racing is expensive, and more so if you are dependent upon others for basic preparation, etc. But, is it more expensive than in the past? I don't think so.

Barry

[Matt King]

If racing is not more expensive relative to income, then to what do you all attribute the decline, because the lower participation numbers are irrefutable. I don't think track time per weekend has increased or even kept pace, so that might be one factor. Competition from other organizations and track days is probably another. SCCA hasn't been the only game in town for a long time, so if you don't like the product they are selling, there are lots of other choices.

[Stan Clayton]

If racing is not more expensive relative to income, then to what do you all attribute the decline, because the lower participation numbers are irrefutable. I don't think track time per weekend has increased or even kept pace, so that might be one factor. Competition from other organizations and track days is probably another. SCCA hasn't been the only game in town for a long time, so if you don't like the product they are selling, there are lots of other choices.

No need to make this more complicated than it already is. Look at the charts up above in posts #10 and #12. What isn't shown in them is that throughout much of the 60's FV accounted for about 25% of all National entries. Then came FF in 1969, which supplanted FV as SCCA's most popular class by the early 70's. For the rest of the 70's and into the early 80's those two classes accounted for up to a third of all National entries.

Then came Spec Renault (now Spec Racer Ford), which put an effective cap on costs and which bit deeply into both FF and FV entries, but especially FF, which was in the midst of rapidly evolving technological maturation and escalating cost of being competitive. Quick on the heels of SR came the IT classes, which offered MUCH cheaper racing than the Prod cars of the day, and with nearly the same speed. All of which bled entries from FV.

So it's not really a case of FV losing its appeal. SCCA racing has grown along with the population, but most of the growth has occurred in the Regional ranks, and in other classes. Back in the 60's if one wanted really affordable racing FV was about the only choice. Prod cars and what became DSR were MUCH more expensive. Ten years later...twenty years...thirty years later there were more choices, so competitors tended to migrate to what was most interesting to them.

But FV can maintain its viability by staying true to its mission: relatively affordable formula car racing with a minimum of technological evolution. That's not to say "NO EVOLUTION" in my opinion, but what change does come down the pipe should be measured and that which enhances the basic attributes of the class. To me that argues in favor of ball joint beams, disc brakes and even 1600cc engines. YMMV...

[Jnovak]

Stan knows. Pay attention.

[rave motorsports]

Ohhhhh Noooooo Stan mentioned 1600 engines !!!!

[Mark Filip]

FV and FST are 2 inexpensive classes. FST already has the brakes, ball joint beam and the 1600. Re name the classes FV1200 and FV1600 and leave them. If parts are a problem for certain people they already have a choice to move to FV1600 (FST). Allow FV1600 to run as a national class, majors class or what ever it's called now or what it will be called next month. If x amount of entries can be met for the runoffs then the class
should be allowed to participate.

[flat tappet]

FV and FST are 2 inexpensive classes. FST already has the brakes, ball joint beam and the 1600. Re name the classes FV1200 and FV1600 and leave them. If parts are a problem for certain people they already have a choice to move to FV1600 (FST). Allow FV1600 to run as a national class, majors class or what ever it's called now or what it will be called next month. If x amount of entries can be met for the runoffs then the class
should be allowed to participate.

Once again...a voice of reason!! Any problems now, getting new drums,Mark.Also, engine casings,etc if you hole one on a FV.

Jesus,must be a few still left in Mexico....