Why aren't low dollar FV's selling quickly?

[lucky13]

OK....so where are all the people who say they'd love to get into formula car racing or FV in particular but it is just too expensive? Sure this car has been sitting and will need a thorough going over and lots of bits and pieces updated/replaced/cleaned-up, but there is a lot of stuff here for $2500 obo. Do it a little at a time as you can afford and you will have a nice car in the end and you can race. You will get plenty of advice/help from other racers, believe me!

If you need to sell one of your motorcycles or other toys, tow with a cheap open trailer, use a piece of junk minivan that is falling apart to tow, sleep in a tent at the track, or whatever. "Racers race". Plain and simple.

Sorry for the rant.

[Amon]

Matt,

This thing has Max written all over it!

Mark

[lucky13]

location, location, location

Same thing. While I agree that San Francisco is a long way, this car is in the middle of the country. I drove 600 miles through a blizzard to get my Vee. The last racebike I sold was to a guy in Florida (I'm in Pittsburgh). Don't people read Peter Egan and the van drives he's been on to pick up different machines and the stories that go along with these adventures?

Like everybody else, I wonder what has changed that nobody wants to race any more. I think this is part of it. It isn't easy. It isn't convenient. The only reason to do it is because you want to more than anything else. That's what make racers who they are.

Sorry if I'm distracting from your sale but in a weird way, maybe it will help you!

[lucky13]

Matt,

This thing has Max written all over it!

Mark

It does....and I would help him if he would just get his **** together and get/keep a job.

[Bill Bonow]

Posts was transferred to the FV general section from the FV classifieds

[Amon]

Matt,

I've driven from Ohio to Macon, Georgia to P/u a Caracal D and to Northern Florida to P/u
my first Citation many years ago, so like you said I wanted it more than anything else
and miles be damned! I just drove this past fall with my son 10 hours round trip to P/u
my latest Citation so time hasn't slowed me yet!Hopefully someone will p/u this FV!

Mark

[Agitator]

There are a lot of good deals right now, but the initial investment isn't why I think most folks aren't buying. It's the operating costs. I've got a car sitting in the garage right now that hasn't been driven in 5 years. From a safety perspective alone, I'd need to spend a grand - helmet is out of date, belts have expired, and need a HANS (wasn't required when I drove last).

Assume a newbie buys this car for $2500. He may get some deals, but he's pretty much gonna spend that amount again just to turn the wheel on a track - drivers suit, shoes, gloves, helmet, HANS, SCCA membership. SCCA license, Drivers School entry, not to mention a trailer, assuming they don't have one. Now you've spent 5 grand before you've even started the engine.

I'm actually surprised that someone wouldn't buy a car like the one that started this thread just for the parts inventory alone! You could throw the chassis away and still make out pretty well with just a decent motor, tranny, wheels, and other stuff.

[BLS]

James, we need another Agitator on the track - get that thing going...

I finally made it to a drivers school a few weeks ago, the rain / sleet / snow school at Summit point. I am now an experienced snow and sleet driver. Not a single dry lap.

[Agitator]

Barry,
I had every intention on getting back on track, but I've just got to look at the return (fun) on investment. I actually had a long talk with the wife about it over Easter, and I think I'm going off road motorcycle racing instead. Sure, you can spend tens of thousands of dollars racing bikes, but for the same $$ investment I get a heck of a lot more time on the track, I can actually train and ride my race bike without having to arrange a test day. Entry fees are nominal. My bike fits in my truck, so I can tow my camper. The total of my riding gear cost the same as a new HANS alone. Tires are cheap..etc, etc, etc.

I'm stoked to see you've gotten back on the track! I read your report about the weather woes. That sounded tedious, at best! Let me know if you need a crew member at Barber, Road Atlanta, or Savannah. If I'm available, I'm there.

JB

[Bill Bonow]

Matt,

I don't think this is a FV issue so much as it is a SCCA Road Racing issue for "low buck" racing classes. As I see it, our racing take a mixture of two major items: Free time and expendable money. All racing needs this. The more affluent classes use more money than time, but typically our (FV) end of the spectrum is some money and lots of time. Face it, if we all had more expendable income, FV would likely not be on the top of the "what do I want to race" list.

How I think that applies here is the "cheap buy in" cars will typically require lots of time and money. Couple that with all the other expenditures required to get on the track and the list of potential buyers starts to really shrink. In some situations, these cars get bought only to realize (after purchase) that racing might not be in their reality. Thus creating the "garage queen" syndrome.

I think many of the "low cost" classes are seeing the same thing, FV just sees more of it as they are on the lower end of the cost spectrum.

Just my opinions

[BLS]

James, it will be FV's loss and motorcycles gain in that case, but we're all hoping you change your mind

For any of those low buck racers, don't forget that in the internet age it is much easier to find good used equipment. I'm about as cheap as they come - Used like new hans $300, driver suit 3-2A5 $80, gloves on sale $20, nomex socks about $15, leather moccasins (I cannot fit my feet in the car with regular driving shoes), and I splurged on a new balaclava to repel the sleet on the neck for $60. I bought a new helmet at $350, but you can find new helmets for less. Apex and ebay are your friends. Used FV parts are put up for sale here on Apex and at formulavee.org pretty frequently, often at very low prices.

Buying new equipment to bring an old car to life can be expensive. When first contemplating this, I thought I would put my old Zink on track first. Adding up the cost of a custom fuel cell, fire system, etc, plus an engine and I quickly realized a used car was a good deal if I just bought it for parts. Having a newer design is just a bonus. I have previous experience and a small supply of FV/VW parts so it was easier for me as it would be for James. There are cars available that are race ready with some checking over. They are probably a better deal than buying an older car that needs all the safety items and much replacement.

[John Merriman]

Bill, I think your assessment is very accurate. I find a parallel in my own family. When I started out I bought a roller and spent the next four months and $5000 - evenings and weekends - doing a frame-up, getting an engine, etc. Two buddies helped out a lot too. (you all know the drill) My stepson would really love to race and would be happy to follow the same process - but he simply does not have the resources nor the time. That is a fact of life for most people these days. Add two more factors which have been exhaustively covered on this site: there are all sorts of other leisure time pursuits that people now prefer and, secondly, young people are no longer very interested in cars and....."fixin things". (a lot of them don't even have a driver license!)

One other element is also in play: everything in amateur racing has "gone upscale". Even at the Regional level it seems that everyone "needs" a big enclosed trailer, spiffy tow vehicle, their own set of scales, a ton of electronic gear - you name it. To me it looks a hell of a lot like professional racing!! The "shoestring" approach to it is not seen any longer. (when I raced, about 25% of the grid were cars run on very minimal budgets) The end result? The number of people willing to dive in and "just do it" - as the well worn slogan goes - is very small indeed. Driving 500 miles to pick up a car? That's history! Sad to say.....yet I would do it in a heartbeat. Hell, just loading my Lola onto the trailer on Friday afternoons....that was a thrill in itself........

[Amon]

Barry,

What kind of old Zink do you have? I have two Z-18/B's that are both in parts currently, but
I'd like to get one up and running for regional use at some point. I figure there aren't too
many running and it would be good to get one going for others to see and experience
what was on the track back in the 70's and 80's.

Mark

[Jim Kleinklaus]

The SCCA is graying and time spent on computers has cut into everything. I am in advertising and my motorcycle customers tell me they just aren't getting young guys anymore. I deal with the NRA and they are losing membership as young guys are not hunting anymore as much as before. It is everywhere and particularly affect things that are costly. Manufacturers have to load up new geys with electronics s they are what is selling to young customers. The love affair with the car is slipping away for a generation.
Jim Kleinklaus

Matt,

I don't think this is a FV issue so much as it is a SCCA Road Racing issue for "low buck" racing classes. As I see it, our racing take a mixture of two major items: Free time and expendable money. All racing needs this. The more affluent classes use more money than time, but typically our (FV) end of the spectrum is some money and lots of time. Face it, if we all had more expendable income, FV would likely not be on the top of the "what do I want to race" list.

How I think that applies here is the "cheap buy in" cars will typically require lots of time and money. Couple that with all the other expenditures required to get on the track and the list of potential buyers starts to really shrink. In some situations, these cars get bought only to realize (after purchase) that racing might not be in their reality. Thus creating the "garage queen" syndrome.

I think many of the "low cost" classes are seeing the same thing, FV just sees more of it as they are on the lower end of the cost spectrum.

Just my opinions

[BLS]

Mark,

I have the older Zink, same one I drove for several years in the mid/late 70's. I have never figured out what the actual Zink model number is, maybe Z4. I have seen them referred to as C4 but I think the C is for Citation and these models were not built by Lathrop as far as I know. The Z12 replaced it and the Z18 was the revised Z12, I think.

I had two of these cars, the first bought as a Zink kit in '73, totaled it at Charlotte around 75. Bought the next car as a used kit for the frame and glass. I managed to get it to the runoffs in '78 with a lot of luck. I think the last time on the track for that car was '80.

Pics of the car are here: http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...php?f=2&t=4346

I'm hanging on to it now for possible vintage racing, but may let it go after I decide it's too much to have two cars

[lucky13]

I agree with what you wrote Bill, and what others have added as well. I guess this is just part of getting older....times have changed and people have changed. Although I get that, it sure was fun when there were lots of goofballs around on race weekends doing goofball things and leaving behind hysterical stories.

[budawe]

Really great posts and I'd like to offer another thought. SCCA has a track trials program that is basically solo 1. The rules have been rewritten and track costs are greatly reduced compared to road racing. Take a look under road racing link on SCCA.com and review the rules for TT, there may be a place for your garage queen..

I gave up track days on my bike when the orthopedic costs exceeded my insurance policy. Still ride on the road, just more carefully.

[rave motorsports]

The SCCA is graying and time spent on computers has cut into everything. I am in advertising and my motorcycle customers tell me they just aren't getting young guys anymore. I deal with the NRA and they are losing membership as young guys are not hunting anymore as much as before. It is everywhere and particularly affect things that are costly. Manufacturers have to load up new geys with electronics s they are what is selling to young customers. The love affair with the car is slipping away for a generation.
Jim Kleinklaus

Jim is right about memberships greying that's exactly why we are going to the youth karting programs in Midwest FST. We show the cars at car shows. We can't sit back and hope kids find us and get involved we have to actively recruit non-racers. Face it most young guys aren't familiar with road racing in general. It's rarely broadcast on TV, media coverage doesn't exist, if we aren't showing and preaching they will walk right past us. The younger generation is bombarded by everything and as road racers we have let the sport down by being complacent.
Lets all look beyond our circle.

[Brian]

What's the sense in buying a $2500 or $5000 or $10000 race car when getting belts, a new fuel cell and tires on it is going to cost $2500, and the cost of going to your first race is going to be $2500 (helmet, suit, gloves, shoes and a race entry, plus a hotel, meals and say a reasonable 200 mile tow). The cost of the car is irrelevant. I have two perfectly good race cars in my shop and I ain't going to run them, I can't afford it with a free car...

The advantage of F1200 or FV is two-fold as I see it. One is the cost of entry is about as low as you can get it, even if the car isn't the major cost, and two is the racing is as much about the driver as a class can get, looking from the outside. I see more people who race FV with grins on at the races I go to than any other class.

Brian

[Jphoenix]

I see more people who race FV with grins on at the races I go to than any other class.

I finished my first novice race this last weekend with ICSCC in Portland in my FV, and I still have a huge grin!

Yeah, racing is not cheap, but FV is probably the least expensive class to enter, and for a new guy, it's terrifyingly fast and fun, I can't imagine starting out in open wheel in any class faster or more complex than FV, there's just too much other stuff going on that I need to learn.

The class is experiencing a growth spurt in the PNW. This year, with five vees on the track at Portland, so we have mild hopes for a fun season up here.

Jim

[BLS]

Why aren't low dollar FV's selling quickly?

Looks like the car that started this thread has sold, 3-4 days. Seems reasonable to say that low dollar V's sell pretty quickly...

[G.Rossman]

Just ran across this forum...and find it a good source. Before I was finding a couple of FV on Ebay but a lot ofthose are a little salty and the various models get confusing not know what may be modded or original etc.

[Snakedriver]

I originally wanted to go vintage Formula Ford racing, and started looking around for an "off brand"...A non-Lotus, Brabham, ect. After a few false starts I ended up with a Formula 3 Cooper that hadn't been raced since the early 80s. It was actually period correct.

Now as I approach my first race in Pittsburgh, Im a bit depressed over the modifications...The really expensive modifications I had to do to the car. Its very disappointing to loose a lot of the charm that makes vintage racing vintage racing.

I get the safety thing,$$$$ I get accidents happen$$$$...

Sometimes I feel like I am ruining a really cool car.

Rant complete.

Leo