Major experience needed for Majors.

[tahoez]

was at t hill 2 weeks ago and qalifing was the worst i have been in, like spec miata on steroids! but i was told by a sfr borad menber 7 years ago after a car that was drivinng at half speed in spec miata caused both of the cars behind me to be totaled at the corkscew , and they were in top 5 that this is club racing and we wont enforce 110 % rule! and the girl didnt even know she caused the wreck. i agree new licencing rules are to easy.

[marshall9]

If DaveW and JP had their way, the entry fees would easily double and the number of entries would dwindle very quickly.

Eventually, the sport would die.

The solution is the same now as it has always been, if you are really that much faster than the median driver, move up a class. Maybe the real problem is that the guys that should move up refuse to because they like to collect trophies. Formula Ford was always meant to be a the first rung on the ladder of real open wheel racing. Maybe it is time for JP and DaveW to move up to the next rung, then they won't be griping about the slow drivers in FF

Brian,
You are a good friend of mine and my teammate.
Please allow me to state some facts for you here.
Dave W is a multiple runoffs FF/FC winner and has been doing this since I was in diapers. He recently left SCCA National participation for the F2000 pro series. I am confident that this was after a LOT of deliberation, as he has been an SCCA member since Moby Dick was a minnow. The last thing he wants to see is the demise of the SCCA.

John Paul is not a FF racer either, but a front runner in F1000. I have not had the pleasure of meeting either man, but know who they are, and believe that they are only trying to make things better, not destroy them.

They have both moved up the rung , and are trying to convey productive ideas in this thread.

That being said, JP, I'll come up and speak to you at a race, and so will Brian. We are both sensible men, but men none the less, please let's not call each other out to the playground after school. I WILL show up.....

[ccoffin]

I think Majors should be for the truly competitive. Unfortunately, SCCA (and the general cost of racing) has driven the nail in the coffin of competitive Regional racing. In the Southeast, if you want to run with more than 2 or 3 cars in pretty much ANY open-wheeled class you need to show up at a Major. And if you don't have the talent, $$, or experience to race at a Major then track days start looking more attractive, which is where I think the SCCA is losing a LOT of competitors.

Here in the northwest, almost all of the competitive drivers have moved on to ICSCC, or started there to begin with. It is a regional championship, it is competitive, and nobody drives off course during the out lap of qualifying. Everyone understands it is club racing and very, very few have delusions that they will be moving on to any higher level of racing based solely on their skill. There are people spending next to nothing on track with people who have seemingly unlimited budgets, and everyone in between. And never at any point is it more important to get a win than it is to keep your car in one piece, so bonsai moves onto slower cars don't happen.

Things that work for ICSCC that help solve the problem this thread is addressing.
1. Series is regional, but it is not limited to one track. You get to travel some, but not all over the god damn country to an unfamiliar track just to meet a participation requirement.

2. They have a novice program that takes at least half the season if not more to complete before you are on track with any body other than a novice (before anyone says anything, I am aware this is not true with the open wheeled group, but bare with me because in an ideal world it would be true there also). then you are placed under probation for the better part of two more weekends and must be cleared by senior drivers to move out of this probationary period. Some people have not moved out of this probationary period for years as a result of not being safe. Additionally, if you are still in this probationary period, you can go back and run with the novices for free during their session in order to get better, and you are encouraged to do so, because novice races are observed by senior drivers who will give you feedback on what to do better. Senior drivers are constantly helping out everyone who needs it.

3. They hold a drivers school the day before a race weekend at almost every weekend. This gets fresh blood out to the track, and the instructors are the people who will be sharing the track with the fresh meat later so they have a vested interest in teaching them and evaluating them well. For every dollar ICSCC loses through either the drivers training or novice program, they gain back in huge amounts down the road, both in terms of future volunteer hours these people will put in, the entry fees they will pay (which are a whole hell of a lot less than SCCA), and in the amount they save by not having idiots who don't know how to pass or get passed on the track next to them.

4. The members of the clubs, those who race or volunteer or both, are the ones who run the club. Their concern is to make the best racing experience for them and their competitors. They create a better product for themselves and their fellow competitors then some group of people living half a continent away.

And that's what it all comes down to, creating the best product for as many racers as you can.

"Qualifying" for the runoffs is a joke. the process does not benefit the membership, and it does not place the best product on the starting grid at the race itself. Why not just invite anyone who has completed 8 races in each of the last two years in any form of club racing regardless of sanctioning body. Maybe make people apply to the runoffs. Think about how great the FC field could be if every year all of the F2000 series guys got to qualify too, along with any club racer meeting the participation requirements. I bet you could get 80 cars, not 10. What if you made club ford a runoffs class and had them meet these same participation requirements to qualify. What if you didn't have a billion different classes all show up to the same track during the same week all wanting a single class race, why not split it into two separate groupings over two weekends and get each group some decent track time.

Alright, late night disjointed thread rant about a disjointed thread over.

See you all at the pacific major because I cant quit you scca (even though we were so close until the runoffs made its way west), then stick around for the awesome ICSCC race the week after in Spokane.

[brownslane]

Here in the northwest, almost all of the competitive drivers have moved on to ICSCC, or started there to begin with. It is a regional championship, it is competitive, and nobody drives off course during the out lap of qualifying. Everyone understands it is club racing and very, very few have delusions that they will be moving on to any higher level of racing based solely on their skill. There are people spending next to nothing on track with people who have seemingly unlimited budgets, and everyone in between. And never at any point is it more important to get a win than it is to keep your car in one piece, so bonsai moves onto slower cars don't happen.

Things that work for ICSCC that help solve the problem this thread is addressing.
1. Series is regional, but it is not limited to one track. You get to travel some, but not all over the god damn country to an unfamiliar track just to meet a participation requirement.

2. They have a novice program that takes at least half the season if not more to complete before you are on track with any body other than a novice (before anyone says anything, I am aware this is not true with the open wheeled group, but bare with me because in an ideal world it would be true there also). then you are placed under probation for the better part of two more weekends and must be cleared by senior drivers to move out of this probationary period. Some people have not moved out of this probationary period for years as a result of not being safe. Additionally, if you are still in this probationary period, you can go back and run with the novices for free during their session in order to get better, and you are encouraged to do so, because novice races are observed by senior drivers who will give you feedback on what to do better. Senior drivers are constantly helping out everyone who needs it.

3. They hold a drivers school the day before a race weekend at almost every weekend. This gets fresh blood out to the track, and the instructors are the people who will be sharing the track with the fresh meat later so they have a vested interest in teaching them and evaluating them well. For every dollar ICSCC loses through either the drivers training or novice program, they gain back in huge amounts down the road, both in terms of future volunteer hours these people will put in, the entry fees they will pay (which are a whole hell of a lot less than SCCA), and in the amount they save by not having idiots who don't know how to pass or get passed on the track next to them.

4. The members of the clubs, those who race or volunteer or both, are the ones who run the club. Their concern is to make the best racing experience for them and their competitors. They create a better product for themselves and their fellow competitors then some group of people living half a continent away.

And that's what it all comes down to, creating the best product for as many racers as you can.

"Qualifying" for the runoffs is a joke. the process does not benefit the membership, and it does not place the best product on the starting grid at the race itself. Why not just invite anyone who has completed 8 races in each of the last two years in any form of club racing regardless of sanctioning body. Maybe make people apply to the runoffs. Think about how great the FC field could be if every year all of the F2000 series guys got to qualify too, along with any club racer meeting the participation requirements. I bet you could get 80 cars, not 10. What if you made club ford a runoffs class and had them meet these same participation requirements to qualify. What if you didn't have a billion different classes all show up to the same track during the same week all wanting a single class race, why not split it into two separate groupings over two weekends and get each group some decent track time.

Alright, late night disjointed thread rant about a disjointed thread over.

See you all at the pacific major because I cant quit you scca (even though we were so close until the runoffs made its way west), then stick around for the awesome ICSCC race the week after in Spokane.

All great ideas here.

I am a total loss as to how anyone cannot listen to guys like Dave W...he has FORGOTTEN more race craft than most all of us will have learned in our lifetimes

John Paul summed the situation up correctly. BTW, as F-1000 (FB) is arguably the FASTEST class in SCCA (at least equal to FA), how can somebody MOVE UP to another class? I don't get that comment at all.

Finally, SCCA needs to take a bigger picture of what is happening IMO. How many guys have LEFT running SCCA for the express purpose of getting away from the risks of mixed (high speed differential) run groups? I will NEVER EVER run in an open wheeled car (like the FB's I built or FA) with FV.....ever.....the speed differentials are too great; you cannot see these fast cars coming in a FV....and then an Atlantic will brake 60, 80, 120 feet DEEPER than a Vee.....so the "line" that these cars take to the apex intersect somewhere in the braking zone for Atlantics....and the result is "challenging" to say the least.

I think we ALL need to understand that, regardless of reason, running cars in groups where the speed differential is this great is CONSCIOUSLY risking every competitors' equipment and lives. This is really scary stuff.

I also think SCCA could write in a rule that any class that enters more than, say (and you pick the number) 20 cars at an event, that they are GUARANTEED their own race; there would be an incentive for FV, or FB, or FA to get their entries up....and SCCA wins because the entry list grows instead of shrinks....

The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same things and expect a different result; I feel that these dangerous (specifically open wheel classes) run groups are driving away competitors. To continue doing it will only continue to drive away competitors.

Brian C and Tiago, I think you would adjust your perspective if you were partly paralyzed, lying in a hospital bed like I was.

[Chris Livengood]

The irony of it all...

[Wren]

As people have already pointed out, DaveW has one of the most successful SCCA racing careers of anyone in the history of the SCCA. I believe that he competed in almost 30 straight SCCA runoffs and won at least 7 of them. You also missed the part where he has found a solution to the problem by leaving club racing. JP is running P1 right now, the fastest class in SCCA.

In all of the talk about "too many classes" and "qualifying percentages" the most important thing to focus on is whether or not the racers are having a good experience. The hard part is that what qualifies as a good experience will vary from person to person. The east coast majors have done as much as they possibly can to improve the experience with the three open wheel/sports racer groups. No one can expect anything more from club racing. Improving the experience from here is going to take dealing with individual racers, whether it is managing expectations or managing problem racers.

[Bob Wright]

Set aside driver skill level and training for a minute, because that will always be an issue almost anywhere- go look at some of the bonehead moves during the 24 hrs of Daytona.

I think this thread is circling around one of the perenial core issues in SCCA Club racing today.

A lot of reference to "the good old days" in the 70's and 80's reminds us of single run groups for FF, FV, FSV etc. What's different? In 1980 IIRC, we had FV, FF, FSV, FC and FB for open wheel classes (I think FA existed, but generally wasn't subscribed). The FSV, FC and FB often ran together and generally played nice. FV and FF were usually single run groups with large fields.

Today we have FV, FF, FM, FC, FA, FE, FB, F500. There-in lies the problem. On a broader scale, in 1980, there were about 15 classes in Club racing, today we have about 28. Track scheduling can usually handle 6 run groups per day for a Majors Weekend...do the math. It can be fixed but there would be torches and pitchforks at the doors of Topeka to accomplish it.

In support of JohnPauls comment and observation; At one of the PBIR Majors race in January there were 32 cars in four classes- FV, F500, FF, FC. (sounds ok, right?). Three FC's (including me) did not qualify for the Saturday race and started from the back of the field. All three were in top ten positions in 2 laps. Does anybody think that was "safe"? It was awful, and only because everybody paid close attention there wasn't a first lap ball up. I don't think the FV's had much fun that weekend.

[GT1Vette]

Today we have FV, FF, FM, FC, FA, FE, FB, F500. There-in lies the problem. On a broader scale, in 1980, there were about 15 classes in Club racing, today we have about 28. Track scheduling can usually handle 6 run groups per day for a Majors Weekend...do the math. It can be fixed but there would be torches and pitchforks at the doors of Topeka to accomplish it.

Bob - I agree with most of what you say, but there were 22 classes when I first attended the Runoffs in 1971:

. A thru H Prod (8)
. A thru D Sedan (4)
. A thru D Sports Racer (4)
. FA, FB, FC, FF, FV, FSV (6) - and FA was the F5000 cars, not Atlantics!

I'm pretty sure there have never been fewer than 22 and we have 27 today. The CRB/BoD has a goal of reducing the Runoffs classes but I'm sure everyone here remembers the resultant gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair (i.e. - torches and pitchforks) when the CRB proposed combining FM & FE a couple of years ago.

In 2014 we're running eight run groups at most of the three-day Majors (nine at the Sprints) and we've reduced practice/qualifying time to fit that in while still giving two races. As you say, "do the math".

[Agitator]

I don't think the FV's had much fun that weekend.

Donnie Isley had fun! He won both days...in an Agitator (shameless plug)

On another note: I applaud (loudly) the changes in run groups for the Southeast Majors, where the wings/non-wings have been separated. It seems to have made a huge difference from both a safety standpoint and driving experience. Kudos.

[Bob Wright]

You have a better memory than I...I lost track of some of the production classes, even though I raced in that arena in the 70's (BS, DP specifically). I also forgot the advent of the SS classes in the mid 70's (I ran SSB for a few years) so some of my argument is a little less potent.

8 run groups makes everyone suffer a bit for track time, but I think that is an acceptable compromise given the circumstances.

[Purple Frog]

After viewing last Sunday's FB race I'm guessing Alex Mayer agrees with John Paul.

[GAC]

In regards to Bam Bam's comment, a person 14 seconds off a 1:28 probably should not have been passed at his drivers school. When I did my school way back when, there was an older guy with an older Ford that was way off pace, and he did not pass the school. He was relatively safe as far as running his line and watching his mirrors, but they kept telling him he had to be quicker, or they would not pass him.

[tlandon]

Buy a Kart. It's more fun and way cheaper. More track time, less travel. Plus the SCCA is mostly rich daddy wankers who make up for a small johnson by buying expensive race cars and get in the way of the other wankers who have a bigger, faster in a straight line car than theirs.

[Amon]

Tlandon,

Karts aren't always way cheaper. I know of a local karter who's father spent $20K+
in one season as they traveled from Ohio to the East Coast and back racing!

Mark

[Steve Bamford]

I don't think Tim Landon could really comment about the SCCA events first hand as I could be wrong but I don't believe he has ever run in an SCCA event, I just hear old karting stories & about SCCA wankers that all have way too much money. Seems someone is just a little green with envy.

[Bob Wright]

I suspect you might have to add a zero to your $20K for a top national level karting effort

[BURKY]

I don't think Tim Landon could really comment about the SCCA events first hand as I could be wrong but I don't believe he has ever run in an SCCA event, I just hear old karting stories & about SCCA wankers that all have way too much money. Seems someone is just a little green with envy.

Steve, I totally agree. Never heard of him.

[Amon]

Bob,

I actually think it was double the amount I mentioned, but since my memory isn't what it use to be, I thought I'd give a more concervative amount. Either way, it's a large #
that is probably way higher than the average SCCA driver spends in a given season.

Mark

[HayesCages]

Tlandon,

Karts aren't always way cheaper. I know of a local karter who's father spent $20K+
in one season as they traveled from Ohio to the East Coast and back racing!

Mark

Rich daddy in our area spent upwards of $250k for his son, for one season...in karting.
On a national level it is not cheap.

[brownslane]

Shhhhh. Don't tell, but we are all rich.


And the rest of you are wankers!

Guys, have a GREAT weekend. Some of you lucky wankers are actually driving race cars this weekend while the rest of us are working on them.

Tom

[HayesCages]

Rich in character, poor of pocketbook.

[tlandon]

Rich daddy in our area spent upwards of $250k for his son, for one season...in karting.
On a national level it is not cheap.

That's what killed karting. Its turned into the SCCA. Pipe of the week, clutch of the month, new tires everytime the kart hit the track. Like I said. When I quit karting, rich daddy babies pulling up in Semi Trailers with two freakin gokarts in them.

We used to have 900 to 1000 karts at the Nationals. We hauled our karts in my grandfathers homemade wooden trailer. We would easily have 50 to 75 karts every saturday night back in the heyday.

I have been to many SCCA races. Never as a driver because I couldnt afford it. I also crewed full time on an Indy Car Team for one full season. Another rich daddy baby wanker drove that car. What a *****. His mother actually still cut his steak for him at dinner.

Jealous. You bet. Racing at all levels has mimicked the way the country is today. Wide gap between the haves and have nots. And it's growing quickly.

I am not coming back to this site. I cant take all you wankers pissing because you dont get your way or its too hard to pass somebody. Buy a faster in a straight line car, then hold up the 10 seconds a lap slower car in all the corners. Good Luck and as always, Have Nice Day!

[BURKY]

That's what killed karting. Its turned into the SCCA. Pipe of the week, clutch of the month, new tires everytime the kart hit the track. Like I said. When I quit karting, rich daddy babies pulling up in Semi Trailers with two freakin gokarts in them.

We used to have 900 to 1000 karts at the Nationals. We hauled our karts in my grandfathers homemade wooden trailer. We would easily have 50 to 75 karts every saturday night back in the heyday.

I have been to many SCCA races. Never as a driver because I couldnt afford it. I also crewed full time on an Indy Car Team for one full season. Another rich daddy baby wanker drove that car. What a *****. His mother actually still cut his steak for him at dinner.

Jealous. You bet. Racing at all levels has mimicked the way the country is today. Wide gap between the haves and have nots. And it's growing quickly.

I am not coming back to this site. I cant take all you wankers pissing because you dont get your way or its too hard to pass somebody. Buy a faster in a straight line car, then hold up the 10 seconds a lap slower car in all the corners. Good Luck and as always, Have Nice Day!

Where did you race kart's?

[JohnPaul]

Where did you race kart's?

Mikey, you don't recognize him? this is him at PBIR back straight

[BURKY]

Mikey, you don't recognize him? this is him at PBIR back straight

It all makes sense now!

[JohnPaul]

It all makes sense now!

While we're at it do you recognize this guy?

[BURKY]

While we're at it do you recognize this guy?

Yeah, that's my dad's expression, when I tell him his times are as fast as a FF.

[R. Pare]

I am not coming back to this site.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Steve Bamford]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I was going to say "don't keep any promises you can't keep", but I didn't want to be rude so I didn't.

[rickb99]

..... the SCCA is mostly rich daddy wankers who make up for a small johnson by buying expensive race cars and get in the way of the other wankers who have a bigger, faster in a straight line car than theirs.

THAT is the way the SCCA has been since the day it was born!! Back in the 1950's when the club was getting going the BIG racers were oil men out of Texas (like Jim Hall and Hap Sharp) and Oklahoma or the Briggs Cuningham's who could afford to build sports racers or buy Birdcage Maserati's, Ferrari's and D type Jaguars. Then there was a lawyer or doctor here and there that came back from WWII with the itch. THEY are the ones who went to the run offs every year and made it a "SHOW". The guys in Austin Healey's, Triumph's and MG's were just there to flesh out the show. NOTHING has changed in 60 years in that regard.

[racerdad2]

I wish we could get by with $20k for our kart season. I, for one, belong to the slow, poor & impractical group I've said this before... I've never understood the animosity towards the rich guys. The rich guys have all the good toys ! Not to mention, they build most all the tracks we love It's really quite simple. Rich is good. Poor... not so much. And slow guys should not be racing at the Majors..... If only the car counts could support that....

[Franklin Futrelle]

Get a spec racer ford

[racerdad2]

You SRF guys are having all the fun ! & the new car is impressive !

[glenn cooper]

This thread is still alive?

Can we get a Mod up here and stick a fork in it, please?

[mousecatcher]

Orange plate back ground for rookies and gold plates for the experts works in karts. An "X" on the back or yellow streamer works in many racing circles.

Bottom line; know who you are racing against to the best of your ability. If it's somebody you don't know assume they drive looking through a big cloud of red mist until you learn otherwise.

The worst drivers I know are completely clueless about how bad they are. And everyone else knows they stink. Why not have them be forced to wear a streamer or whatever? Either by 3 protests or by witness of stewards. And you have to wear it for 3 race weekends. If they repeatedly get the badge of dishonor they should start to get the message (or preferred, clean up their act).

[mousecatcher]

I cant quit you scca

lol, I'm sure many of us feel the same

[Purple Frog]

Post #146 is a picture of Jim Morgan when he saw the invoices for Morgan Racing's 2007 season.

[alangbaker]

You SRF guys are having all the fun ! & the new car is impressive !

Don't listen to Franklin... ...he's driving an FF at the moment.

[gcoffin]

"SCCA got us good, don't it?"

lmao

[jim morgan]

So Frog,

Why exactly am I being dragged into thread about rich wankers with small johnsons?