Major experience needed for Majors.

[Modo]

a guy 2 seconds off the pace can cause just as much trouble as slow guy, the fastest guy could be limping around with car problems outside 110-115 for points at the end of a race with sportsman like conduct............ if you don't take care of your neighbor, you won't have one, ......... where's SOLO I, do they have that anymore??? ..... still a European sport here in North America, most are roundy-rounds, savor the few we have!!!! ........ had Easter dinner and a FDA scientist was there, mentioned Watkins Glen and he had not heard of it, he had heard of a famous Iowa round track!!!!!! Was from Cedar Rapids and a agriculture scientist I believe

[Matt King]

Has anyone even looked at the times based on the percentage rule? I went back to race last year at Mosport that I remember a slow car causing issues in the race. Pole time was 1:28.517 & their time was 1:42.43, the next slowest time was 1:36.098. Now based on that I believe they are in the 112-113% of pole sitters time. almost 14 seconds a lap is a huge difference on a minute thirty lap.

Yes it is, but it meets the 120 percent rule easily, and even 115. Are you advocating for 110 percent or lower? Even F1 is only 107. Do you really think that is going to happen in club racing?

[Modo]

Final .......... perhaps the pro Mazda rule but instead of black flagging, a drive thru so can finish race as well, would have to decide how many of course for pit-in but could work (remembering corner workers are volunteers and don't know stress level currently during group currently to find pit-in folks accurately)

[Steve Bamford]

Yes it is, but it meets the 120 percent rule easily, and even 115. Are you advocating for 110 percent or lower? Even F1 is only 107. Do you really think that is going to happen in club racing?

Nope don't think it is going to happen at all...just trying to bring to the attention of people arguing the 115% rule how inclusive it actually is & how someone that slow can adversely affect an event. There should be no way someone below that should race however that is simply my opinion. Ask JR2 about his incident with a car at about the same percentage I am pointing out & was an issue that led to a helicopter flight for him at the first ever Major event.

I am suggesting people get to the track to do test days & get up to speed instead of showing up just for race weekends & expecting to only improve then. They are not really racing anyways driving around alone being this slow & better off spending their dollars on test days & getting laps in. The greatest help for them is seat time & test days are the best for this & likely the safest.

[JohnPaul]

The problem with using percentages is that the longer the track the bigger the gap in times. It should be 10 seconds max any track. That will probably be 15-20 second difference with the fastest class in group

[Peter Olivola]

I like to quote the GCR without editing. I'm well aware of the 115% in the supps. The notation about the CS waiving the requirement was the point I was trying to illustrate.

Perhaps you haven't read the majors supps. It's 115% of the track record.

[farrout]

where's SOLO I, do they have that anymore???

The name, SOLO I, disappeared when SCCA moved SOLO I from SOLO to Club Racing and established the Time Trials Program (PDX, Club Trials, Track Trials, Hill Climbs).

SOLO I morphed into Track Trials (TT Level 3) and Hill Climbs (TT Level 4).

Like it had with SOLO I for 30 years, SEDIV still has an active Track Trials and Hill Climb program. A number of PDX have joined the fray as well. We have a number of Road Racers who use the Track Trials at TGPR, Roebling, Barber, Road Atlanta, CMP as test and tune or practice.

[Matt King]

The problem with using percentages is that the longer the track the bigger the gap in times. It should be 10 seconds max any track. That will probably be 15-20 second difference with the fastest class in group

Have you written your letter to the CRB yet?

[Tiago Santos]

I agree, this thread is all over the place. I still have trouble believing anyone can have difficulties passing a car that is 10 seconds off the pace, let alone 20. If drivers are causing trouble by driving erratically, help them or boot them. Being slow isn't necessarily a safety concern, racing is. I'd put money that you've crashed by yourself, or while racing someone your own speed, more often than you were crashed INTO by a slow driver.

Drivers can be going slow for many reasons. For some, it's the only chance they get to drive and get out on track, trying to figure things out. For others, they have a POS car and are trying to get it going. Someone might need the finish to keep their license but they have old tires, a tired motor and a frozen shock, who cares. None of it means they will be in the way - in the same way that a driver 3 seconds off the pace isn't necessarily safe.

It's still the responsability of the overtaking driver to make a clean pass. If you're truly 20 seconds faster, you can pretty much pick where to pass down to the centimetre.

[reidhazelton]

The problem with using percentages is that the longer the track the bigger the gap in times. It should be 10 seconds max any track. That will probably be 15-20 second difference with the fastest class in group

With 10 seconds, you would have sent 5 guys home in the FF field, 20 people home in the EP field, 11 people in FV, and 13 in SRF, and 9 in CSR/DSR, for example, at the 2013 Runoffs. Sure you want to loose 30% of those who attend?

[Tiago Santos]

The problem with using percentages is that the longer the track the bigger the gap in times. It should be 10 seconds max any track. That will probably be 15-20 second difference with the fastest class in group

This makes no sense. You're saying being 10 seconds off the pace at Road America is the same as being 10 seconds off the pace at Lime Rock?

[Darryl Wills]

I am not reading into his posts as him saying that all slow drivers are a danger..Even though, he does sort of say that. I think the point he is trying to make is that lap time is the only way to determine if a driver has the experience and ability to compete at the top of amateur racing. Without having each driver submit a racing resume and be accepted to compete by a panel then lap times are the only non subjective way to cull them out.

I see his point but do not necessarily agree with it. I would rather have guidelines established for newly licensed drivers to follow. Newbies must be identified in some fashion and would have to prove that they can handle themselves properly in Majors by running incident free until they gather a certain number of points. Further school attendance and regional racing would be mandatory upon ANY incident... full course cautions, car to car contact, not obeying flags, etc...

[JohnPaul]

With 10 seconds, you would have sent 5 guys home in the FF field, 20 people home in the EP field, 11 people in FV, and 13 in SRF, and 9 in CSR/DSR, for example, at the 2013 Runoffs. Sure you want to loose 30% of those who attend?

Ok, so your point? so you race with 10 competitive cars instead of 15 where you have to dodge much slower cars.

[mousecatcher]

So enforce it, what's wrong with 115-120% ? If a track record is 1:00, 1:15 or 1:20 is real slow. If it is a long track and the record is 2:00, even more so. Come on, 30-40 seconds a lap? I think that is more than fair.

I've supported (just here on the Internets) 107% for awhile. I was thrilled to see 115% vs 120%, not that it matters, it's still horribly slow.

the 120% rule I believe came from Formula 1 thats what they use.

F1 uses 107% and it's new from 3-4 years ago when the "new teams" came on board. Only 1 car was ever dq'd for being outside of 107%.

[mousecatcher]

The problem with using percentages is that the longer the track the bigger the gap in times. It should be 10 seconds max any track. That will probably be 15-20 second difference with the fastest class in group

It's about closing speed and differential corner speed. 10s around the nurburgring is NOTHING, for example. It has to be a percentage, not a max absolute value, as it reflects the speed difference through each corner.

[reidhazelton]

Ok, so your point? so you race with 10 competitive cars instead of 15 where you have to dodge much slower cars.

Point being, what do you think the entry fee will be (not to mention the long term viability of the club) if we cut 30% of entries from the Majors program?

SCCA isn't the only store in town anymore, and people will (and already DO) go elsewhere to get their fix.

[Modo]

I'd make note of Reid's point, many around the DC area ran Nationals just because the paddock at the Marrs races (Summit) is impossible and Nationals were doable, many many entries at Summit, ...................usually the April Regional is jam packed with newbies fresh out of school and ready for F1/Indy and the rest tired of bench racing, ........... not so a couple weeks ago, not packed at all ........... fast guys watch it and slow guys watch it as GCR sez IMO

[Daryl DeArman]

So enforce it, what's wrong with 115-120% ? If a track record is 1:00, 1:15 or 1:20 is real slow. If it is a long track and the record is 2:00, even more so. Come on, 30-40 seconds a lap? I think that is more than fair.

My OCD or whatever is rearing its ugly head...1:00 lap + 15 seconds is 25% not 15%

60 seconds per minute not 100

Whatever 15% is hugely turd slow, but doesn't make them unsafe as many others have said.
The novice, intermediate, expert route would just further fragment an already excessively fragmented run group.

Orange plate back ground for rookies and gold plates for the experts works in karts. An "X" on the back or yellow streamer works in many racing circles.

Bottom line; know who you are racing against to the best of your ability. If it's somebody you don't know assume they drive looking through a big cloud of red mist until you learn otherwise.

[Steve Bamford]

With 10 seconds, you would have sent 5 guys home in the FF field, 20 people home in the EP field, 11 people in FV, and 13 in SRF, and 9 in CSR/DSR, for example, at the 2013 Runoffs. Sure you want to loose 30% of those who attend?

Is this a new change since the rules to qualify for the runoffs has changed or has there always been people this far off the pace? I am trying to compare it to when you had to compete to actually make the runoffs.

[Modo]

Always, it is club racing with different motives and allowances, should we bench you because you are not within 120% of the lead guy in your group (not class), a CSR, Atlantic or DSR? you would be a moving chicane we are talking about albeit a sportsman I would hope ........ you can't play til u get one of those or they group differently (do in some cases)(or get one of those in other cases, LOL) ........... out of here not Majors participant, sorry

[alangbaker]

Yes it is, but it meets the 120 percent rule easily, and even 115. Are you advocating for 110 percent or lower? Even F1 is only 107. Do you really think that is going to happen in club racing?

1:42 is 115.9% of 1:28.

[clint]

The name, SOLO I, disappeared when SCCA moved SOLO I from SOLO to Club Racing and established the Time Trials Program (PDX, Club Trials, Track Trials, Hill Climbs).

SOLO I morphed into Track Trials (TT Level 3) and Hill Climbs (TT Level 4).

Like it had with SOLO I for 30 years, SEDIV still has an active Track Trials and Hill Climb program. A number of PDX have joined the fray as well. We have a number of Road Racers who use the Track Trials at TGPR, Roebling, Barber, Road Atlanta, CMP as test and tune or practice.

I do a time trial (earlier known as solo 1) everytime I get a chance. Ive never been outside the S.E. division so I cant speak for anyone but the S.E. group. In saying that, the time trials in the S.E. are run as efficienlty as Ive ever seen any events run any where Ive ever ran. The time trials are perfect for things like we discussing because no passing is allowed except the straights. So, if youre a slower car and dont recognize theres a car behind by giving a point by you get the passing flag. (point by is mandontory in time trials) If you recieve a passing flag because you failed to realize someone is beind you its not a penalty, it just causes you a bunch of grief when your buddies start picking on you about recieving one for failing to realize someone is in your mirrors and have been for about a lap (thats the point in time at which a corner worker will throw the passing flag). Its a expectation in the world of time trials to pay attention to your mirrors or suffer the nagging of your buddies for the remainder of the weekend. Its a good enviroment to be in and I enjoy racing in. If you havent had a chance to try a time trials in the S.E., you missing out. A ton of track time, great officials, bigger expectations for safety than any road race event ive ever been to.

[Modo]

DO time trials count as a regional, I like the 'ROAD', suppose it would in my case if I didn't get one or two regionals in and needed a beggar, I mean waiver

[Brett Lane]

Just reading this thread, and I thought of the inexperienced guys. There are the slow guys, but there are the over aggressive ones too.

Kind of reminds me of really fat people at Golden Corral, or alcoholics with their name on a barstool. If they realized the end result of their behavior, they wouldn't do it.... Or would they? hmm.

My weird thoughts on it....

[Brett Lane]

John "Shooter McGavin" Paul- If you start walking around the paddock using your hands like six guns, you're really gonna freak me out.

Just sayin'...

[mmi16]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is Blue Flagging and the relative lack of it.

With the closing speeds in some of the mixed class grouping - the slower cars, even searching their mirrors on a constant basis have no idea that they are going to be blown by by 15 - 30 MPH faster car.

Good flagging helps everyone - overtaker and overtaken!

[JohnPaul]

Yeah baby

[BURKY]

John "Shooter McGavin" Paul- If you start walking around the paddock using your hands like six guns, you're really gonna freak me out.

Just sayin'...

Don't forget the sombrero!

[JohnPaul]

Ok Mikey now you're jumping on the bandwagon also?? Jeez

[Brett Lane]

The sombrero is a mariachi shady hat and is in the trailer....

[DaveW]

I agree, this thread is all over the place. I still have trouble believing anyone can have difficulties passing a car that is 10 seconds off the pace, let alone 20....

IMO, that is not the main issue. The main issue is that if you are actually in a close race for 1st with someone, you have to sometimes decide whether to go for the gap, or give up your chance at the win. And the slower the overtaken car, the more difficult it is to safely predict what the slow guy will do in or near a corner. So really slow cars ruin the racing. And if you are not there for the racing, you may just as well run individual time trials or track days.

[ken kaplowitz]

John Paul how did you crash at VIR and take out Garret?
ken kaplowitz

[Agitator]

Is this a new change since the rules to qualify for the runoffs has changed or has there always been people this far off the pace? I am trying to compare it to when you had to compete to actually make the runoffs.

BINGO!!

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but THIS is exactly the problem. Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything that can be done because car counts have been steadily dropping for years. As has been noted, entry fees will skyrocket even more if we alienate those with $$, no matter their experience.

In the 70's and 80's, when FV, FF, FSV, etc had huge fields, it was bloody hard to just qualify for the Runoffs. Entire Runoffs fields were covered by a couple seconds under this formula. I don't know if he's reading this, but I remember John Gaither (former FV and FF driver) driving 1000 miles out of the region at the end of the season just to try and score the 2 points he needed to be the 4th or 5th driver (can't remember how many qualifiers then) in the Southeast, where there were routinely 30-40 car fields. In more recent years, before instituting the Majors races, you could qualify by pretty much just showing up at 3 races, didn't matter if you actually finished them or not, much less score points.

I think Majors should be for the truly competitive. Unfortunately, SCCA (and the general cost of racing) has driven the nail in the coffin of competitive Regional racing. In the Southeast, if you want to run with more than 2 or 3 cars in pretty much ANY open-wheeled class you need to show up at a Major. And if you don't have the talent, $$, or experience to race at a Major then track days start looking more attractive, which is where I think the SCCA is losing a LOT of competitors.

[Brian C in Az]

IMO, that is not the main issue. The main issue is that if you are actually in a close race for 1st with someone, you have to sometimes decide whether to go for the gap, or give up your chance at the win. And the slower the overtaken car, the more difficult it is to safely predict what the slow guy will do in or near a corner. So really slow cars ruin the racing....

Ok, so your point? so you race with 10 competitive cars instead of 15 where you have to dodge much slower cars.

Point being, what do you think the entry fee will be (not to mention the long term viability of the club) if we cut 30% of entries from the Majors program?

SCCA isn't the only store in town anymore, and people will (and already DO) go elsewhere to get their fix.

If DaveW and JP had their way, the entry fees would easily double and the number of entries would dwindle very quickly.

Eventually, the sport would die.

The solution is the same now as it has always been, if you are really that much faster than the median driver, move up a class. Maybe the real problem is that the guys that should move up refuse to because they like to collect trophies. Formula Ford was always meant to be a the first rung on the ladder of real open wheel racing. Maybe it is time for JP and DaveW to move up to the next rung, then they won't be griping about the slow drivers in FF

[brownslane]

I agree, this thread is all over the place. I still have trouble believing anyone can have difficulties passing a car that is 10 seconds off the pace, let alone 20. If drivers are causing trouble by driving erratically, help them or boot them. Being slow isn't necessarily a safety concern, racing is. I'd put money that you've crashed by yourself, or while racing someone your own speed, more often than you were crashed INTO by a slow driver.

Drivers can be going slow for many reasons. For some, it's the only chance they get to drive and get out on track, trying to figure things out. For others, they have a POS car and are trying to get it going. Someone might need the finish to keep their license but they have old tires, a tired motor and a frozen shock, who cares. None of it means they will be in the way - in the same way that a driver 3 seconds off the pace isn't necessarily safe.

It's still the responsability of the overtaking driver to make a clean pass. If you're truly 20 seconds faster, you can pretty much pick where to pass down to the centimetre.

Tiago I STRONGLY disagree! I got launched over the wall at the bottom of T2 at Mosport, breaking my back at L4/L5, broke 5 teeth, fractured my collarbone and a number of ribs.....by a guy driving a car 11 seconds off the 1:26's we were running. It happens!

If they are over their heads trying to drive laps that should be easily achieved by a COMPETENT driver in a decent car, then they don't know the proper line, and DRIVE INTO YOU, then there is little you can do.

I was fully committed through T2 at a double national during qualifying. I was flat in 5th gear through the second apex, which is blind from turn-in. If you have ever driven Mosport you would understand that, in order to take the proper line through 2, you need to turn in flat on the throttle...and turn in blindly ....and once committed at 120 mph, you cannot lift or alter your line. This dude was stroking along, totally over his head, off line; he then crossed from one side of the track to the other, directly into my car....launching it and me OVER the wall....I spent 4 years in a stainless steel corset and walked with two canes. Then I had to endure serious surgery and now have a permanent numbness and slight paralysis on my right leg.....

Don't tell me that it was up to me to avoid someone totally incapable of driving safely on track...at a double national....and who drove into me....it happens!

Any time cars are closing on each other at speeds that a competent driver cannot discern a car is catching him is unsafe; if the driver is going that slow because he is unable to drive the car at the speed it is capable of is much worse; he is risking people's lives. THAT is what I hear is going on right now. John Paul is absolutely correct to express his concern; some folks are just not capable of driving safely if they are not capable of driving at speed.

[ghickman]

Remember the "good old days" when you actually had to qualify for the Runoffs. For those of us that have been around the SCCA long enough to remember when FF had it's own run group, FV did, and so on those days are long gone.

For those of us that run in the "Wings and Things" run group now it's simply a matter of dealing with what is tossed at you.

At least in FB we have a series running within our run group and we have Mike B and Nicholas Belling watching out for us by working with the SCCA for split starts. This helps break things up for at least some of the race.

Lets face it this really comes down to low car counts and entry fees. The SCCA must find ways to make money and excluding some slower folks would most likely cost them money.

[DaveW]

If DaveW and JP had their way, the entry fees would easily double and the number of entries would dwindle very quickly....

I never stated that I wanted everyone slow to go away. I just stated what happens from a competitive "racer's" perspective.

I wish it could be different, with everyone including the slow guys being able to safely race together in the same group, but that, IMO, is not the way it is. It IS dangerous.

[JohnPaul]

John Paul how did you crash at VIR and take out Garret?
ken kaplowitz

Technically Garrett took me out (not his fault)

If DaveW and JP had their way, the entry fees would easily double and the number of entries would dwindle very quickly.

Eventually, the sport would die.

The solution is the same now as it has always been, if you are really that much faster than the median driver, move up a class. Maybe the real problem is that the guys that should move up refuse to because they like to collect trophies. Formula Ford was always meant to be a the first rung on the ladder of real open wheel racing. Maybe it is time for JP and DaveW to move up to the next rung, then they won't be griping about the slow drivers in FF

Obviously you live in fantasy land and have no clue what you are talking about. 1) I don't want higher fees, that has nothing to do with slow drivers. Most of the slow drivers have more $$$ than you or I. 2) don't put words in my mouth. If you have something to say to me come out to a race and say it to my face (although I doubt you would). 3) read brownslane's post above and learn something
Btw: I'm not in FF

[JohnPaul]

.?

[Daryl DeArman]

The solution is the same now as it has always been, if you are really that much faster than the median driver, move up a class. Maybe the real problem is that the guys that should move up refuse to because they like to collect trophies.

the other side of the coin: Why shouldn't they move down a class? I am already in the fastest class I can justify financially. If I were forced to race in a faster class I would have to race less often and/or less competitively.

Thread drift here: Please give me a class that is more challenging than FV but not as expensive to run up front at Majors as FF. Oh yeah, while you're at it make sure I have at least a dozen people within 1 second of the pole time....I know, I know....time to go back to karting, this time in the Masters classes.