Perhaps a Sprint Race could be fit in the schedule to satisfy the highly competitive guys ? Pay extra for 5 or 7 laps of all out, no one's in the way, racing ! Pure adrenaline. Exciting to watch. Invitation Only ? It's not about elitists. Just the best against the best....
"An analog man living in a digital world"
LOL, ok maybe I deserve that but I'm not trying to be a douche, I'm trying to talk straight and not sugar coat it. For an overwhelming majority of people that attend the Majors entry fees are not the biggest expense. Towing, Tires, help, hotels etc etc. This conversation isn't about people that spend a lot or a little. God knows I try to save money every place I can because it is so expensive.Originally Posted by Ian Lenhart
Anyhow, to the guys that say write a bigger check to race somewhere else is that they are missing my point by a mile. Most people that are at the Majors have a ton of experience and should be there, I'm talking to a few guys that are trying to skip over the learning and experience process in the regionals by coming out to the majors and putting themselves and others in harms way.....plain and simple.
BTW: Not digging these elitist comments....I'm far from that
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
That is a good point. There should definitely be a requirement to run XX number of regionals before being allowed to run Majors. I would support that 100%.
Unfortunatley, that won't cure the entire problem that caused you to start this thread. Some people are just bad drivers, even with a lot of experience. There is an experienced driver in my run group (not my class) running the east coast nationals/Majors that seems to have problems at every race. Not sure if he knows how to use his mirrors or look at flagging stations. Both habits create dangerous situations that require other drivers to have heightened awareness when near this guy on track.
Not sure how to address that issue in the context of SCCA Club Racing.
This discussion appears at least once every year and the results are the same. I may not be qualified to comment because (a) I do not run the Majors and (b) my class was the slowest class in the run group, but I will say this banter holds true even at the regional level where I have my fun. My method of choice for dealing with it? If I have the tools and resources and the rules allow for me to participate, I show up say as little to any one so I don't anger egos and listen even less, race as fast as I can smile and go home. Works well for me.
Not that suggestions on this forum make their way to the powers that be at SCCA but what the old Star Mazda pro series did for their events would make a lot of sense in club racing. Shorten the qualifying rule to 107% and let everyone start the race in their qualify position. IF you are one of the cars greater than 107% then a black flag will be shown to you before the leaders lap you. worked for them.........
Of course, the new 'KART KIDS' can blow ur ass off immediately, they now have protection, LOL, hopefully a car, hell they will take a VD96 and do-it-to-it ........... 4 regionals may be a happy medium, 2N + 4reg ........ a new heads-up for Stewards for warnings in the infrequent yet safety related issues
Seems to me there are a number of variables here. First we have a range of driver skills and experience. With respect to this my observation is the faster the class the greater the delta V within class. The second is the delta V between different classes in mixed race groups. And the third is the new majors format which is forcing drivers to attend races at unfamiliar tracks.
In reverse order, the unfamiliar track situation will take care of it's self the longer we stay with the Majors format. I cannot believe that what I saw at Thunderhill will be the norm in years to come.
Mixed race groups; the logical mathematic solution is to enforce the 120 % rule ..... From the median time in qualifying, if you are to slow you do not race, if you are to fast you do not race.
LMAO
But seriously the point here is that if the delta v is to great for the fast classes to handle, we just need to slow you down, or speed everyone else up. Not sure how to speed up the slower classes, but all you have to do to slow down the fast cars is establish a wheel dyno to weight ratio.
Ability and experience level are no guarantee that a driver is safe. Fast guys, rich guys and idiots may all be the same guy. You cannot fix stupid.
There is such a requirement. The number is 04.
Great idea, love it. The only question is how to address split starts? With a split start you get lapped much much sooner, regardless if you're in the front or back pack.
Split starts should be ILLEGAL
I hate split starts...WTH, Let see how this works..Take the fastest cars from "the slow class" and put them a couple of seconds behind "fast class".. Yea, that should work..The top drivers in "the slow class" have to negotiate slow chicanes while still packed up and seeing red mist...Oh no, let's not put cars of similar speed together and allow a natural line to form before encountering slow moving traffic. Makes WAYYYY TOOO MUCH SENSE.....
there is a way to address this, but me, just like most everyone else does not take advantage of it. These drivers and their actions need to be brought to the stewards attention. I have talked to several stewards about this and they all said the same thing, "if we dont see it or it is not reported by the corner workers we do not know about it."
We have to police ourselves.
john
to those who say the scca does not enforce a % rule because they want the entry $.......once the slow guy tried to qualify, his check was cashed....so it's not about letting them race just to get the bucks....he could still be sent home. the question is....will the chief steward do anything about the slow car? if the % rule comes from the supps or some other place and ends up not being enforced.....protest the chief steward
Well, the point is to get the 2 first laps in, with only in-class racing. The problem with mixing it up at the start is you are taking the green with out of class cars. Sure you catch traffic much faster, but at least those couple initial laps, which are important, are just in-class.
Works better on longer tracks and if there isn't someone at 119% in the lead pack.
In my experience, they would let him race anyway - because if he were sent home w/o racing, he would likely not come back for the next race, so no entry fee would be received. It's still about the $.
However, to defend the officials, they are between a rock and a hard place - smaller entries mean more combined groups, which make more people stay home, and so it goes. It's a vicious spiral and VERY hard to reverse.
Dave Weitzenhof
I've been very hesitant to get in on this, because, well... it's an internet forum and won't change anything with regaurd to SCCA. I do hope this makes a few people think about the other viewpoint next time they are in a situation such as described through this thread.
First, EVERYONE was the slow guy at one point or another. Michael Schumacher didn't win his very first time in a race.
Second, speed DOES NOT equate to safety. Safety equates to safety. I can think of 3 fairly quick drivers that I am very cautious when passing, and I can think of just as many guys that a I may lap during a race that I don't have to give a second thought to. So simply chopping off the back of the grid won't necessarily make things any safer.
Ok, point of the story here. Rather than spanking and trashing someone who might be a little off the pace, or moves over thinking they are helping you out, go up to them and HELP THE POOR GUY!!!!! Seriously. Offer advice, talk to them about it in a helping, non-accusatory way. If we all act like jerks, and take and elitist attitude we will soon be racing by our self. We cannot afford to turn anyone away, and why would we want to? Everyone wants to get better, faster, more skilled. That's why we compete, that's why we show up. We spend a lot of money doing this, and to kick someone out is the worst option we can choose. They will not come back. If they are not willing to listen, that is a different topic.
Be an ambassador for SCCA, help someone get faster and pass on what you have learned so they can join in racing you and not hang around at the back. When I got started, I didn't have anyone helping me learn the ropes and it totally sucked. I try to help anyone I can, and anyone who asks so they can have a shorter learning curve than I did.
So, we have two options. Turn people away and act like a bunch of prics, or be a nice guy, offer a helping hand and try to grow our race groups. The right choice seems pretty simple. Beside, selfishly it feels really good to help someone and see them have a huge smile on their face when they knocked a second or so off their time.
JR
Does that mean you're going to start protesting me?
Oh wait you would have to enter first
I thought we were talking about Major's not regional racing. There are places for people to learn & work on developing as a driver. They are regionals, not Majors...or I was under the assumption that was how it was supposed to be. If not then why have Majors at all?
Can someone help me out explaining that please?
Reid, I hear what you are saying but shouldn't those to slow to race spend time in regionals?
I have seen first hand drivers not up to speed causing accidents when startled while being passed. It can happen with any level of driver however usually the reactions of an experienced driver is generally safer by being more predictable.
Steve Bamford
Right on Steve, but the new majors model has cut down on some Regional races and in some regions there are 2 or 3 Regional events. And, the last regional event I was at there were 3 other FFs. 3. You can spend a year putting around in regionals and never have a real race. We all get faster racing with people faster than us, and if there is no one to race with how can we learn?
And yes, there may be better places to learn than a Major/national/whatever we call it now, but IF someone shows up that needs a little help, lets help. Might not be the best place, but let's not make a bad situation worse.
I've stayed out of this so far, but (as I've discussed in previous threads) the reason we've got a 115% of class record rule in the Majors Supps is to give the "not sure" driver a bogey to shoot for before s/he even loads the car in the trailer. If their target time is a 1:30.0 and the best they've ever run in seven weekends at Road Bismarck is a 1:35.7 they're much more likely to decide they need to work on their car and/or skills before attempting to run a Majors event. It also means they signed up knowing they may not get to race and makes the enforcement job by the Series Chief Steward a bit easier.
We've had this discussion before and 115% is pretty soft, but there's still quite a bit of complaining about it. I personally check the times at each event I attend and bring those "on the bubble" to the attention of the SCS. I also stress enforcing it on each conference call we have as well. Does it eliminate all the issues? Certainly not, but it's a start. And we actually have black-flagged a couple of drivers so far this year and who knows how many folks have stayed home because they weren't sure they could hit the mark?
Regarding split starts, FC, FE, and FM all run about the same lap times but each does it in a different way. As a driver of a fast car in a slower class (GTA) of a multi-class group, I am very wary of racing with GT1 cars/drivers that blister the straights and then park in the corners yet turn similar lap times as me. More than once I've made a low percentage move in Turn 1 to get some distance from them so they can't blow by me on the back straight. Split starts, done correctly, reduce that risk and make for a better race experience for all involved.
I've also discussed this with the Series Chiefs, and there are (at least) seven parties involved in doing a split start right:
1. Timing & Scoring - produce the grid sheets correctly
2. Grid workers - line the cars up correctly
3. Stewards - be willing to black flag drivers that jump the start
4. Pace car drivers - maintain proper spacing based on the cars in "their" groups
5. F&C workers - need to know when to drop the double yellows
6. Starters - don't try to trick the drivers with an early or late green
7. The drivers - need to maintain the speed of the pace car until the green, don't jump the start knowing the first group got it, then don't dick around with out-of-class cars when you're not racing anyone
Everybody needs to be on the same page, and any single party can screw the pooch for everyone else. And of course it all goes out the window when the FCY comes out but again, done right it can make a better race experience for everyone
As always I'm open to suggestions/comments/concerns...
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
Agreed on trying to help, offer advice, not crap on the slower driver but when or where is the cut off? Is it not fair to follow a % rule when it comes to qualifying? The numbers are very liberal when you look at them & were designed for this reason were they not?
As you say we all started some where & I totally accept that. To me Majors are not the starting place though.
Steve Bamford
I am not saying Majors are the place to get started. BUT, IF someone shows up that might not belong, let's all make the situation better, not worse.
As far as the % rule, again, speed does not necessarily equate to being unsafe in my opinion. Let's say you turn a 2:23 at Road America. Then, the slowest guy in FF turns a 2:50. Painfully slow. BUT, if he is online, predictable, and does not move over to help, what is the harm? That's FV speed and we pass them all the time. And like I said, I can think of one fairly quick driver than I hate to come up on, because I know they won't know I am there and will not think twice about racing me to the apex. Let's say that there are two people outside of the XX% rule. Now, Kimi shows up and smokes all of us. There are now 5 people outside the XX% rule. Does that automatically make them unsafe drivers? No. If it were me, I would like to see the XX% rule used when someone is slow, unsafe, and unwilling to listen. It's a last resort. If they stay online, I have no issue going around them. Pretend they are a FV.
So, yes, I fully agree the top of club racing is not the place to start. BUT, if someone shows up that is not up to the task, we can make it worse, or make it better. They are there, money spent, the situation presents itself. We are saying the same thing....not the best place to cut your teeth, but if it happens make the situation better, not worse as I know you have done for folks in the past and will continue to help folks out with what you have learned over the years.
Ok, let's play devils advocate here, let's say someone is outside of the 15% rule in quali & still allowed to race. During the race they get into an accident with whomever but the whomever qualified within the % rule. Can this rule not being enforced open up liability to anyone within SCCA or the SCCA itself?
I am asking as I am trying to understand the full impact of allowing someone to race who falls outside of the rules we have in place.
Steve Bamford
Ahhh ok. I get what you are saying.
But, I don't have an answer for that.
I do know, that it seems we can sue SCCA for whatever we want, so sure it could absolutely happen.
A rule is a rule. If you don't enforce one then why enforce any of them?
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Speaking as the potential "Slow Guy"
The flip side of Reid's most excellent point is that if you find yourself seriously off the pace and in the way, seek out one of the speedy guys and ASK for their help, then listen and try to apply it.
(Thank you Bruce, wherever you are.)
Kip
Lola: When four springs just aren't enough.
It's not a hard rule, it is at he Steward's discretion and put in the rule book so they have the option. It does not say "must".
Have you ever been let off with a warning for speeding on the street?
In a word, no. Another part of the 115% rule gives the CS discretion in allowing someone below the cutoff to race. Then there's the assumed risk issue of participating in a hazardous activity.
For reference:
GCR – 14
1. Controlling Competition
1.3.
Assumption of Risk
1.3.1.
Release and Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement
GCR – 34
4.2.
SUBMITTING TO THE GCR
Anyone who applies for an SCCA license expressly agrees, and will acknowledge the following in writing if requested:
A.
Familiarity with the GCR;
B.
Agreement without reservations to any consequences of not complying with the GCR;
C.
Renunciation of any right to recourse, except with the written consent of the SCCA, to any arbitrator or tribunal not provided for in the GCR.
GCR – 59
6.4.2
Establishing the Race Grid
E. Each driver/car combination must qualify within 120% of the qualifying time of the fastest qualifier in his class to be allowed to start his race. The Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward may waive this requirement and may allow non-qualifiers to grid behind qualifiers.
Last edited by Peter Olivola; 04.23.14 at 11:48 PM. Reason: Add GCR cites
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Here are the facts regarding split starts...I lost the lead both days at Road Atlanta because of the slow end of the FE pack..put into the curb one day and chopped the next...I have had similar experience with FAs at Road America...I have never had a race screwed up by other class cars who run similar lap times as myself...
Sorry Butch, but those are facts from the seat of my FM. At the end of the day, I will race whatever format you guys choose...Doesn't really matter to me. Racing is racing and it still beats the hell out of golf.
I am probably in the minority here but I don't have issues with multi classes or drivers running Majors with only four races under their belt. Having said that, it would be a good idea to institute a system for identifying newbie Race License holders..The motorcycles use a yellow number plate background to identify a new rider. Possibly, a system where drivers have to earn a minimum amount of points in a single season with no on track incidents before elevating their license. Any problem on the track and they have to attend one or two Regionals before allowed to compete in another Majors.
Thanks Reid. That's the big reason I am still at it and improving. Without the help and great advice I've received from fellow group drivers, I would have given up long ago. Its a little community and most everyone helps each other.
Regards,
Dan Wise
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
John Paul the fastest car ran 1:45 in qual. and the slowest ran1:52.At 110% the slow car had 3 sec. to spare.Now the problem is 110% of qual. is not the rule,but 115% of the track record of each class,this according to the majors admin.I think this rule sucks because under the right conditions you could wipe out most of the cars.
ken kaplowitz
GCR – 59
6.4.2
Establishing the Race Grid
E. Each driver/car combination must qualify within 120% of the qualifying time of the fastest qualifier in his class to be allowed to start his race. The Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward may waive this requirement and may allow non-qualifiers to grid behind qualifiers.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
The purveyors of good sense are chiming in..........Thanks Reid , Bam Bam, Darryl, and GT1.
Perhaps you haven't read the majors supps. It's 115% of the track record.
So enforce it, what's wrong with 115-120% ? If a track record is 1:00, 1:15 or 1:20 is real slow. If it is a long track and the record is 2:00, even more so. Come on, 30-40 seconds a lap? I think that is more than fair.
Qualifying......Google it.
If you aren't within the times of the rules, you don't qualify....what's so complicated about this?
Of course, I mean in Majors and Pro races. Regionals, not so much. Maybe folks are learning.
If I decide to pack up my stuff and go to a Pro race or Majors, and am 15-20 seconds a lap off the pace, well.......buh bye.....this isn't the Masters golf tournament. If Mario runs laps at Indy at 50 MPH less than Arie's record, with the same engine combo, he doesn't QUALIFY for the 33 car field.
I do, however agree with Reid, in that, even in our group of slow wankers out here (Thanks Mr. Randon) that there are slower guys that I have been racing with for years that I would rather go through a corner with at speed, and some fast guys that I don't trust. So for me, it isn't speed equals safety. I'd rather catch an accomplished FV driver, than a mid pack FF guy, in some cases, from a predictability standpoint.
These discussions are applicable to both Majors and "regionals". Particularly in the formula car classes where we are always going to have disparities in lap times and speeds.
The discussion has mostly been about situations during the races themselves. But what about during Qual or Practice? I have seen many a iffy race pass attempted during those sessions where discretion might have been the better path.
Training in how to be passed or how to pass safely? Where is that training manual available? Do we learn it in these forums?
Driver situational awareness and good flagging are critical.
Each track has unique properties and depending on where the pass occurs there may be different ways to do it safely. Maintaining the racing line seems to work in most cases. We all know that "standard" gets modified in real time depending on the situation. But does hanging outside in a turn to let the faster cars thru on the inside work as well? What should one do when the racing line means you move from left to right? Yes, T2 thru T5 at RA is a difficult place to pass safely.
WHO is going to write the "Driver Conduct During Passing" Book? What do the faster drivers want to see done? How would you teach the less experienced or slower driver what to do? What would you teach the faster driver? Since the standard is somewhat nebulous, what shall we make the standard and then teach it?
Craig Farr
2006 Stohr WF1 P2
FARROUT Racing
My thoughts
I agree that Mabey we should adopt a sys like the Bikes . I roadraced bikes and made it from Novice to Amature to Expert. in 1 year then I Knew just enough to be relitively safe. with the big boys 4 regional races doesn't make you ready for Majors, unless you won all 4 races with a 20 sec gap, to second.and there were at least 20 cars in your group.I know a guy that has won the regional championship but races alone or mabey 2 or 3 cars once in a while. He is not ready for Majors. I think a points sys counting how many cars in the group give you more points sys would be better. the 120% rule I believe came from Formula 1 thats what they use.
Does anyone even have a real example of someone qualifying outside 120 percent and racing in a major and causing a problem or is this all just theory? There is a lot of bitching about some past situations, but what there the actual facts in those cases?
Reid made an excellent point about speed not equating to safety, so just changing the qualifying percentage is not really a solution to the underlying issue.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I do. Road Atlanta Majors last month. I won't mention names but a driver with "10 years" experience decided to rent a P1 out the same camp I run with. P1's were running between 1:20-1:25 max. The person was running 1:40 best lap. He held the entire group up something terrible. Eventually someone crushed him trying to pass him causing both cars thousands in damage (luckily no injuries). The stewards were going to toss him but the team that rented the car to him lobbied to get give him another shot at getting up to speed. I personally sat with him for an entire day and worked hard with him on getting him up to speed. I was completely surprised on how much basic racing skills he lacked (especially with all the years he "raced"). We made pretty good progress, he was able to get down to a 1:34 on his next session just by talking and putting a corner by corner plan together. He made the cut off but I can tell you that he was still awfully slow in a pack of the very fastest group of the weekend. This story could easily have had a much different disastrous outcome.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Has anyone even looked at the times based on the percentage rule? I went back to race last year at Mosport that I remember a slow car causing issues in the race. Pole time was 1:28.517 & their time was 1:42.43, the next slowest time was 1:36.098. Now based on that I believe they are in the 115% - 116% or so of pole sitters time. almost 14 seconds a lap is a huge difference on a minute thirty lap.
Now you would think based on this they would be passed on lap 6 or 7 based on the lap times, they were first passed on lap 3 if I recall correctly going into turn 8. To be that slow that they are passed that quickly does cause issues. One driver was boxed in trying to avoid this driver & went from 2 to 8th in one corner.
Their race best lap was 1:43.589 & the fastest was 1:28.961. The next closest to the slow driver was 1:35.955. Based on this as Reid was saying before they need to race with someone to help get up to speed however in this case they are still not racing with anyone.
In my opinion they need to come out & do more test days to help them get up to speed & not race until they have developed more skills.
I voiced my concerns to the race director prior to the race based on having issues in qualifying.
They lost me as a driver after this event so thus there is at least one less car for entrance fees.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 04.24.14 at 1:36 PM.
Steve Bamford
Split Starts
Ahhh this thread is all over the place anyway (!).
The Split Start at VIR was a thing of beauty.
As mentioned previously, there are several key players to making this happen.
We got waved off on the first attempt, which I knew of immediately (at the top of Rollercoaster) through radio comm w/ my crew.
As Pole Sitter, I immediately held my hand up high and signaled a Go Around and cut back on speed.
The Pace Car pulled in as required. The Marshalls still displayed FCY at all stations.
I kept a gap to the pack ahead, and even closed it up towards the end of the lap so that every FB could get back in formation.
Then it was all just maintaining the required gap.
Like Darryl Wills, I too will race in whichever format that is presented.
I actually prefer the mixed nuts (!)grouping, or even better - Our own run group at Regional races with a Standing Start!
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