Major experience needed for Majors.

[JohnPaul]

Major experience needed for the Majors...

I ain't no fast bad ass and I know the majors isn't the "Pro's" and a lot of people are not going to be happy with what I'm about to say but I think it is important to bring up the topic for conversation.

So…… is it me or is the 120% (not enforced) qualifying rule a big joke or what?? so a qualified experienced racer that runs 2:04 time at a “Big deal Majors” race is subjected being on the same track as a guy that only has to run a 2:28……wow that’s really fun and safe…. That’s a 24 second per lap difference. I can tell you that a 10 second difference is seriously dangerous enough let alone anything more. Are the people making these rules totally out of touch?? Are the drivers that show up to race that are not within 7-10 seconds (I’d say 5 is realist) of the qualifying time living in the same planet? How about the other faster classes within the race group that are 15-20 seconds faster??? Everyone here knows how fast you close in on someone that is much slower, it’s scary (and life threatening) So, Why they are not directed to the regional races that are safer and a better place to learn and get up to speed is beyond me. I was on the track with multiple self proclaimed “rookies” and just plain slower drivers this majors weekend and it was not cool. Driving up on someone that is way off the pace is really scary, you don’t see it coming until it is too late. I saw one of these drivers literally drive off the track to avoid our race pack (at least he used his head). We all spend a lot of money and time preparing for these big races and it just isn’t right that we risk our safety and property out on the track with people that just aren’t qualified to be there. I grew up in motorcycle racing where you had to prove your abilities and to be promoted through up the ranks. At the end of every year they came out with a list of all the novice and amateurs that showed their skills on the tracked and were promoted to expert.

And I don’t want to hear people say it is our responsibility to watch for slower traffic, that’s BS. If they are not within 7-8 seconds, it’s almost impossible especially on blind or fast turns.

I’m not saying there isn’t a place for people that are starting out or are building their chops but the national events are not the place to do it. They really need to use common sense and understand and do the homework to see if they can hang with that level of competition. If not, practice and come next year.
I’m convinced that SCCA cares nothing about competitive racing or safety and is only out for the $$$.

Am I wrong that I think the Majors which SCCA touted as the premier highest level of club racing, needs to be strict on qualifying and make it a realistic time of within 7 seconds within the class?? It’s not like we’d be telling them to quit racing, just start out in the regionals and practice and get up to speed…..

so what you think? don't be shy...(please refrain from cursing me...)

[mikey]

I'd imagine it comes down to money. Are those who run within 110% willing to pay double, triple or quadruple, maybe more, to exclude slower cars from majors?

Racing, at all levels, is open to just about anyone who can afford it and find the track.

[Purple Frog]

You make a good point.

Never the less, it is a difficult situation.
It is difficult for Regions/Divisions putting on races where entry numbers are so important to be able to economically break even on the cost of an event.
Its tough to send anyone home.

Back in the "good ol' days" we had regionals and nationals because it was thought there needed to be a place for some to learn the craft before they moved up. But even that system was never perfect. One could finish four regionals and move up to be a moving chicane at a national.

In reality 120% is sort of lame. It means in a 20 lap race the leaders may lap a backmarker three times and then find him/her just in the wrong place when they battle down to wire for the checker.

With a 7 second allowance, at a track like Road Atlanta, the backmarker would only be lapped once in a 20 lap race.

Just for grins I looked up the results for the F2kCS race at Road Atlanta eight days ago.
If you drop out Bob Wright who started from the back to limp around for 2 laps and retire way before the leaders could catch him so as to keep his streak alive for starting every F2kCS race, then the spread for a 27 car field was from 1:24.6 to 1:30.8 or 6.2 seconds.

Sort of within your 7 second target...

I don't have an answer unless you want to pay $1,000 entry fees.
OBTW, 110% at the RdAtl F2kCS race would have been about 8.5 seconds. Not a bad standard in my opinion.

[Peter Olivola]

Observations from a broken down old, ex-FF racer and one time Chief Steward of the June Sprints, the "prototype" Majors event:

1. Competitors in the same class more than 105% slower than you can be passed safely almost anywhere.
2. The hardest people to pass are those slower than you by a small margin.
3. Different tracks present different challenges/opportunities and favor different skill sets.
4. In mixed class racing there is a bigger spread within a class than between classes.
5. And to paraphrase an old retail car business adage, there is almost never anything wrong with your race that more entries in your class wouldn't solve.

If you're having trouble with 1, don't look at them. You'll find your problem in the bathroom mirror.
If you think you're having trouble with 1 but it's really 2, same.
If you're puzzled about a particular competitor at a particular track, as in 3, same.
If you're frustrated by 4 you won't find a solution in 5 either.

[rob66x]

Just to let you know, some of us do stay away when we arent up to speed. I was going to go to the thunderhill major last weekend but I had only managed about 7 laps in my new f600 ( blew 2 motors in 2 outings), and when I looked at the schedule and saw there was no practice I figured that I didnt want to be in the way.or maybe it was my ego. If I have no chance of winning why play.

[Modo]

Good one Peter, definitely 2 above spot on ............. I guess some want the track to themselves in 'AMATUER' racing ........ if I spent as much money as some folks I have seen, I would have a F3 race in Europe under my belt, may not be the premier F3 race but definitely spread my wings ..... definitely clown around in one of the pro sedan series with spectators and pazazz if I didn't like any pro formula series in the US and couldn't go prototype, knowing me, I'd go Horst Kroll and build my own prototype (have it built) although I think Horst had a Lola .....

counter to that, I do like the fact that Paul N (actor) used amateur racing as a private get-away hobby!!!

[DaveW]

IMO, the problem is usually not too bad UNTIL A COMPETITIVE PACK COMES UP TO LAP the very slow car, say for the third time in 9 laps. Then all heck is likely to break loose.

That happened at the July Nelson Ledges double National in 2010, when a DSR 20-seconds off the pace in the 8-class wings & things group (a good lap is in the 60-65 second range, FA included) jammed up the field in corner 12 (medium speed LH'er before the RH hairpin) , causing several cars to take wildly evasive action. As I was driving around the resulting scrum, a car backed out of it, taking off both of my RH suspensions.

That was the last club race I ran (except for the 2013 Runoffs), because the very-mixed class group racing was no longer fun and was just too dangerous, not to mention expensive (replacing broken suspension, etc.).

That was a major deciding factor in my decision to only run the F2KCS.

[glenn cooper]

Let's not twist or loose sight of JP's "findings" (!).
His concern, and that of others I might add, is not just the lap time difference, but various safety factors:
You're in the lead, humping down the back straight at VIR, w/ 2nd place 5 feet back sucking your draft.
As you approach the much slower car, he sees you and thinks he's doing a huge favor by moving over, right as 2nd place is pulling out of your draft...


JP is trying to promote SAFETY.

Like JP I came from a two wheeled racing background, lastly with m/c road racing.
Unlike car racing where Daddy Warbucks rolls in with bags full of cash and decides FA/P1/FB is the place to be because... well quite frankly because they can afford it, w/o any other factors being considered.

In m/c roadracing you start as a NOVICE, and have to perform well, and prove through results that you have what it takes to be promoted to Expert.
It's like the last sane place on earth, because we all know how it works in politics and the family business!

I remember a few years ago at the ARRC where the F1000 Championship was decided prior to gaining a Runoffs berth.
2008 - On the last lap I am all over Justin Pritchard in the Piper, running my Nova Dieman for the first year and "this close" to making it happen.
We approach an out of class, much slower car who moves over for Pritchard, then just slams the door right on me. I damned near make the gap back but fall short at the line by a few car lengths.

The next year the ARRC comes around and I mention that scenario, and even though this is a Regional race, perhaps it would be better to stay home if a prospective participant was not quite ready for prime time.

Well that went over like a Lead Zeppelin on here w/ cries of "That's un-American, who do you think you are, I guess your poop doesn't stink"... , and all the while I just wanted the event to be as safe as possible, and have the Novices get better before they attempt to head out to the Big Show.

This drum has been beat before, JP. In fact it is more like a dead horse.
I draw parallels to the belief by some that "Everyone is equal, and deserves a shot".

NOTHING could be further from the truth when it comes to racing where skill and experience outweigh ANYTHING, and road racing motorcycles proved that to me, where bags full of hundreds meant squat and you better get your ass out there on the bike w/ the yellow number plates and show us what you got, THEN we'll do what we can for you. Until that time WE (the sanctioning body) are in charge...

[Steve Bamford]

Slower cars, that far off the pace as JP has said, should not be allowed to run. It is very simple, those who don't wish to acknowledge this are kidding themselves that it is not a safety issue.

I don't see any participation awards given out to everyone on the grid like they do with Little Johnny in grade one. There is a place for total inclusion & on the race track at Major Events is not one of them.

Yes it will bring down the car counts, but we are talking about a small percentage...keeping these people on the track will likely bring down the car counts more as people like Dave W will continue to find other places to race or find other hobbies.

Although some say it is easy to pass a slower car then someone almost your pace, coming up on a slower car at the wrong point on the track can ruin a race. Take Road Atlanta as an example, coming up on a slower car by turn 3 all the way to 5 you are basically stuck without putting yourself at jeopardy. If another car gets past the slower car in turn one & you don't, you're done.

[Modo]

always wondered if somehow you could pit-flag the tail runners when a LEAD pack (heated duel) comes upon or is about to come upon them, the slow runners do a slow drive through the pits, no passing in the pits (LOL) and off again, back to their race...... better idea is stay on track but new flag meaning slow down no passing and stay out of the corner/s the hot duel is coming up to (can't be done most likely cause they may not see other than the new or blue flag and might have someone 5 feet from their tail although those two could treat it like a yellow for them for a corner) newer thought that could work, they blue yellow the slow group much before the flaggers may confuse the hot duel and slow and fast are about to enter corner ....... and ...... the slow guys hold their positions (no pass) and look for the hot duel, I said hot duel and only for them, faster cars spread out have to observe current rules for passing .......also slow cars give up corner to hot duel until cleared ........ may even make them feel more comfortable except losing seconds to someone that can still catch them and didn't get the same new blue/yellow treatment, I guess tuff, not key racers in that group and is amateur event.......... yikes better head into DC n Arlington now .....

love the old Indy story, the dentist who was adept enough to qualify, adept enough to fund effort with his practice and I assume business relationships, and adept enough to stay out of the way and end up lapped quite a few times ......... happens in all forms including China last weekend folks!!! .......

ur right Glenn and Dave, back to JP's safety point but Peter pointed to him, so give and take I suppose ....

use to do the above in practice/qualifying if I'm checking stuff and the 'first out' guys may be coming up on me ..... then clear track for me with a reasonable lap-hope

[Purple Frog]

Interesting finding in reading this thread so far... the guys discussing this as a problem, in a civil manner, are the guys paying serious money out of their wages toactually race this season in the majors.

[racerdad2]

As a new guy, it concerns me that I can be so easily qualified to race a Majors. As tempting as that is, I'm staying at the club level. Spoiling someone's race is one thing. Wrecking their car another. We don't like thinking about serious injuries. A 110 % rule seems prudent. Perhaps 107 % for the truly fast cars...

One misconception for new guys is that slower is safer. Perhaps when you're the only one out for practice. Braking early, late on the gas, moving 'out of the way', all cause big trouble when you're truly racing & not just out their having fun going kinda fast.

[Modo]

I like my solution, blue yellow now with yellow means no passing until they are past you and slow so you don't take the corner from them until no blue/yellow with yellow is shown, clear to resume your race .........officials and flaggers would have to look at pros and cons and at all issues ....... can't do it to a pack, too late, blue/yellow yellow to one car only and blue/yellow yellow to a group of slower cars ............... right now just the blue/yellow can be vague but is definitely a heads up and most really use it, I have almost stopped in the carousel at Summit after watching for a while and pointing them by towards the apex vigorously so the atlantics or whatever are not messed up in their race ............ other than that, I guess the points are ....... 3 concerns ..........concern with mixed groups, concern with slow runners within a group, and concern about passing responsibility vs possibly losing a position, ..... all worth while safety issues .....

[Matt King]

In m/c roadracing you start as a NOVICE, and have to perform well, and prove through results that you have what it takes to be promoted to Expert.
It's like the last sane place on earth, because we all know how it works in politics and the family business!

This is the most relevant point in the discussion. Why is the distinction between a regional and national license in SCCA based solely on participation, with a very low threshold (used to be only 4 regional races)? In most other forms of racing (even bicycle racing) you have to earn an upgrade to a higher level license or category by showing results in competition.

[cory mcleod]

How is the speed difference between pole and the slow guys getting bashed here within a single class any different than the speed difference between the fastest class and slowest class in a multi-class race?

Speed differentials is just part of amateur racing. As a racer in a slower, but not the slowest, class (F500), I've had races messed up by cars from faster classes and slower classes.

I agree that it would be safer if all cars were within 105% of the pole time, but that's not possible in the SCCA club racing model, even at the very expensive Majors.

Get over it or write a bigger check and go pro racing.

Cory

[clint]

I agree that something needs to be done about cars that are that much slower than the leading car of the group. How thats done is whats in question. I can say that ive been on the track with cars that are a ton slower than myself and have felt safer than when cars that are in my class are beside of me. Example 1: Steven Davis is a good bit slower a lap than myself in most cases due to the car difference. However, I feel safe making a pass on him anywhere at Road Atlanta including turns 2-5 because hes always aware of whats around him.Example 2: Ive watched a FE pull what could be considerd the stupid move of the decade when going around a lap car then ABRUPTLY switch over into the other cars line with him in the line. This resulted in a very nice car getting torn to shreds AFTER the overtaking FE was 90% past the car he was overtaking IN A STRAGIHT LINE AND BEFORE THE BRAKE MAKERS had even showed up in sight. With that said, I wouldnt pass some drivers in my own class as well as other classes even if they were going Stevens speed just because they dont pay attention to whats around them. Its not from a lack of anything other than experience in my opinion. Most of them are new and are concentrating on things like shifting, guages, their line,etc. It all comes down to a driver thats had experience and that also has come to the realization of their capabilities. If they dont have one or the other its a recipe for disaster no matter if theyre in your class or not. After all we are talking about speed differential here. Ive been on track with every open wheeled class in scca and had the fastest guys in the country on course with me thats in different classes. My time being 1:30.600 their time being a 1:18.600 . Why am I mentioning this? Because now im the guy thats not within 113% of the fastest guy on track. What do I do? I watch my mirrors, keep a approximate lap count so I can tell about when to start looking real hard in my mirrors for the leaders to lap me, AND......I dont make a move when I see them in my mirrors. You may ask yourself "why not move out of the way?" Reason: The overtaking driver has already picked which side they are going to pass me on before I ever see them in my mirrors and if I zig when i should have zagged its a wrap. I dont even bother pointing a finger 99% of the time because by the time I see them in my mirrors they are already going the way they want to go and if they have the choice they wont change their initial thought. So, how do you make track conditions safer? IMO, if everyone is that worried about it then vote on making it manditory for every driver to pass a "driver awareness and situational awareness test" . It might not be the ultimate solution , but it would be a healthy step in the right direction and it doesnt cost anyone anything while keeping the car count up. Remember ,some guys dont have mentors like a lot of others nor do they have past racing experience so what most consider "common knowledge" isnt so common in some drivers minds.

[alangbaker]

Good one Peter, definitely 2 above spot on ............. I guess some want the track to themselves in 'AMATUER' racing ........ if I spent as much money as some folks I have seen, I would have a F3 race in Europe under my belt, may not be the premier F3 race but definitely spread my wings ..... definitely clown around in one of the pro sedan series with spectators and pazazz if I didn't like any pro formula series in the US and couldn't go prototype, knowing me, I'd go Horst Kroll and build my own prototype (have it built) although I think Horst had a Lola .....

counter to that, I do like the fact that Paul N (actor) used amateur racing as a private get-away hobby!!!

"Horst Kroll"?

Sorry for the threadjack, but I haven't heard or seen the name "Horst Kroll" in years!

My family used to go to watch the racing at Mosport and Harewood, and I used to root for Horst (my brother's usually backed Eppie Wietzes... ...who usually finished better than Horst <sigh>).

From your signature, I can see you've raced Mosport. When was that?

[GAC]

The problem used to be dealt with some with the regional and national licenses. Now that there is one license, all drivers that finish their novice permit requirements can go race majors. Maybe we need to bring back the two tier licensing system.

[racerdad2]

Two licenses or two speed groups. Group 1 within 110% of fast qualifier. Group 2 all the rest. And an Executive Order mandating we can race 1/2 hour after Sunrise until 1/2 hour before Sunset (like duck hunting) with db rating of 102 @ 100 yds

[butch deer]

Unfortunately the actions of the SCCA are leading to the loss of the regional (divisional) races. The regional schedules in some places are so thin that Majors are a necessity if you do not wish to sit home or do a lot of traveling. This will insure a larger proportion of less competitive cars at major events.

[Steve Demeter]

I think Clint is spot on with the driver awareness test idea.

Sometimes I am the traffic and sometimes I am the guy trying to get through the traffic.

So I see it from both sides quite frequently.

I work very hard on being aware of faster cars approaching me and will give up the line (not move over, just maybe delay turn in or brake a tad early after a very obvious point by that I am sure the faster guy saw).

The last thing I want to do is to mess up someone else's race.

My main communication with my crew on the radio is where the fast cars behind me are and when they are approaching, usually at least a lap before they should catch me.

I watch very carefully and try to plan when to have them go by, preferably in the middle of a long straight.

On the other hand I have had really slow guys drive right into me when I have my front wheels even with theirs. Then they blame me when they were not even aware of what was going on.

The upshot is : This is club racing. We are racing for $5 dollar trophies. Pay attention and make sure that you return with all the wheels on and pointing the right direction.

There is nothing wrong with telling someone who you might have gotten in the way of that you are sorry after the race.

And nothing wrong with POLITELY asking the guy who turned into you as you were passing if he noticed you. But as Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse " Tell them to leave but BE NICE".

[racerdad2]

How about adapting some new car technology ? Similar to aircraft proximity warning systems. Blind spot indicator lights. Microwave radar to warn of fast approaching cars from the rear. In car - on dash flag warnings. Mandatory listen only radios transmitted from race control....

Keeping in mind that we tend to develop tunnel vision & a loss of hearing compression when under stress or when seriously concentrating....

Pilots ignoring the ground proximity warning, "Pull Up ! Pull Up !" when 'abnormal' situations arise.

Fighter pilots engaged in a dog fight that can't hear their wingman shouting thru the radio to roll right to shake of the guy gunning him from behind because they're fully engaged gunning the one they're chasing.

[Steve Bamford]

How about adapting some new car technology ? Similar to aircraft proximity warning systems. Blind spot indicator lights. Microwave radar to warn of fast approaching cars from the rear. In car - on dash flag warnings. Mandatory listen only radios transmitted from race control....

Keeping in mind that we tend to develop tunnel vision & a loss of hearing compression when under stress or when seriously concentrating....

Pilots ignoring the ground proximity warning, "Pull Up ! Pull Up !" when 'abnormal' situations arise.

Fighter pilots engaged in a dog fight that can't hear their wingman shouting thru the radio to roll right to shake of the guy gunning him from behind because they're fully engaged gunning the one they're chasing.

Huh? That won't work as it would be going off all the time as I run wheel to wheel with someone running the same speed as me for a lap or more. I get where you are trying to go but don't think you have thought it all out.

I have seen race directors or stewards here in Canada watch certain new drivers on test days & would not let them race on a weekend but encourage them to come back to the next test day to work on getting up to speed. That worked!!! Imagine that. The driver was back the following race weekend & improved enough to race. I wish more organizations addressed these safety issues in the same respect. We are talking about Majors which is supposed to be the best of the best.

I personally have decided this year to avoid them (Majors) to race in the Pro events because of improved competition & to avoid mixed class racing.

[racerdad2]

I see your point Bam Bam. It really does come down to skill level. And the comes with experience. And situational awareness comes with being relaxed in the car.

The Majors should be reserved for the accomplished drivers. And it would be ideal if run groups could be formed by similar lap times. I have no desire to be on track with FA's nor FV's. This coming weekend I'm going to play racer in a Spec Miata. Blasphemy !##! :-)

Seriously, you fast guys in the Majors deserve your own run groups. You come to race & race hard. I, for one, won't be in your way...

[Brian C in Az]

Like JP I came from a two wheeled racing background, lastly with m/c road racing.
Unlike car racing where Daddy Warbucks rolls in with bags full of cash and decides FA/P1/FB is the place to be because... well quite frankly because they can afford it, w/o any other factors being considered.

In m/c roadracing you start as a NOVICE, and have to perform well, and prove through results that you have what it takes to be promoted to Expert.
…..road racing motorcycles proved that to me, where bags full of hundreds meant squat and you better get your ass out there on the bike w/ the yellow number plates and show us what you got, THEN we'll do what we can for you. Until that time WE (the sanctioning body) are in charge...

The only problem with your m/c example is that in many areas, their racing fields are already rather thin. if you split the field 2/3's & 1/3, or 3/4 & 1/4, do you now have a 2 or 3 car group running novice? Are you going to commit to provide them the same track time as the Expert group? They paid the same entry fee.

We already (in Az) have a problem of too many fields and not enough daylight hours. We can't create another group just for the novice open wheel cars.

Part of racing is dealing with the traffic, and part of racing involves the luck of who gets caught behind the lapper and when.

As said above, write a bigger check and go race with the more exclusive groups if you want.

Remember, you were once the slow guy out there and you probably got in someone's way at some point and cost him a second or 2 which cost him a place and points.

[mousecatcher]

Unfortunately the actions of the SCCA are leading to the loss of the regional (divisional) races. The regional schedules in some places are so thin that Majors are a necessity if you do not wish to sit home or do a lot of traveling. This will insure a larger proportion of less competitive cars at major events.

Can you expand on this a bit? I didn't know that the national/majors schedule and points system ("the actions of the SCCA") influenced how a region chooses to schedule their own regional events. It's as easy as ever, if not easier, to get a regional license and go racing. The problem in the regions is lack of entrants, not anything the (national) SCCA is doing, to my understanding.

It's a simple consequence of a down economy, or corporate oligarchy depending on your policitical bent. Even with the economy "good" right now, it's only good for the very highest percentage of earners. The DJIA hit a record high this year and still people are looking for jobs that pay well enough to have disposable income. Even many folks that are doing ok are unsure of the future and spending very conservatively. It's getting a bit better but not well enough to see it in boat sales, SCCA entries, etc.

I'm not just pontificating, I'm seriously interested to know what you think the SCCA is doing that is hurting regional entries.

[mousecatcher]

The upshot is : This is club racing. We are racing for $5 dollar trophies. Pay attention and make sure that you return with all the wheels on and pointing the right direction.

There is nothing wrong with telling someone who you might have gotten in the way of that you are sorry after the race.

And nothing wrong with POLITELY asking the guy who turned into you as you were passing if he noticed you. But as Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse " Tell them to leave but BE NICE".

Hear hear! I would like to see more civility even under stressful situations that we have at the track. OTOH at the thunderhill majors just past, in group 2 there were 4 cars off on the qualifying OUT LAP. I'm sorry, that's unacceptable. (Suprisingly, and it's sad to say that it was actually surprising, the races were quite clean for the most part.)

Anyway, even in the pros there is a bit of nonsense going on. For one thing, remember Milka Duno? Took what, 3 years to decide to get rid of her?

[JohnPaul]

As said above, write a bigger check and go race with the more exclusive groups if you want.

Remember, you were once the slow guy out there and you probably got in someone's way at some point and cost him a second or 2 which cost him a place and points.

1) grow up, its not about writing a bigger check
2) I'm talking about safety
3) I've been racing for a long time, last time I was the slow guy was a long time ago and not racing in majors

Practice in regionals and get up to speed. It's all good.

[BillH]

I understand some on the frustration in a one class race group.

I had the frustration driving a FF in a race group with FV's.

I don't buy the "safety" thing so much, the last time I raced the 25 Hours of T-Hill in a Miata, a Crawford Daytona Prototype was on the pole.
That's a tad more that 120%

[DanW]

No sense for the old fat DFL guy in a CF to hold everyone up.
I purposely stayed away from the majors events and will mind the entries for regionals at Laguna for the same reason.

A mixed class race of FF, CF, F5, FC, and FV requires awareness from all of us, but it can be done. Its actually less stressful than an open test day with Atlantics, FB, and DSR coming out of nowhere.

As BillH advises, mixed class racing can have some extreme delta V closing speeds. Yet, the guys get it done.

Us slower guys don't hold all the brain cells for bonehead moves. I have seen individuals who run at the pointy end of their classes make repeated low percentage moves, each time ending with torn off corner DNFs for both.

Situation awareness from EVERYONE is required, not just the slower guys. Last time I checked, we all are out for fun, not to get a pro ride.

Regards,
Dan

[Brian C in Az]

JP's elitist attitude is exactly why the sport is dying.

As mentioned, mixed class races have much greater delta V.

Nascar races routinely have more than a 20% differential between the pole sitter and the back of the grid starters.

Formula One currently has a rather large differential between the Mercedes car (Hamilton) and many of the other teams.

They all seem mature enough to not whine about it JP.

[Rick Kirchner]

just look at group 9 for the SVRA Indy event......

[lance3556]

1) grow up, most of us can write a check for just about anything we want.
2) I'm talking about safety
3) I've been racing for a long time, last time I was the slow guy was when I was a little kid on a 60cc in motocross.

Listen if you can't hang don't come out. If you do just understand that it isn't appreciated. Practice in regionals and get up to speed. It's all good.

1) Wish I could write checks like that
2)You have good brakes, use them
3)"Slow Guy" can be defined as the first loser!

I can identify with this post as I was "The slow" guy at Thunderhill a couple weeks ago in my group. First time at the track, engine problems, compressed weekend with little quality lap time and a poor grouping for the Friday test day. Well below my expectations. Drop ego at the door, stay safe and let the others race if you think you are in the way. Too many people push the yellow flag too hard and are willing to make that one "PASS" for the plastic trophy. I personally had to take evasive action 4 different times due to cars getting out of shape racing for 10th plus place. Hard to see the 6 fast cars from each class carrying the whole club in entry fees. Perhaps the expectations of the average SCCA Racer is getting a little to high. In Portland, the ISCC regularly draws twice as many competitors as SCCA and a much more low key environment to participate in.

P.S.-Even a poor race weekend beats sitting on the couch most of the time. As Wayne Gretzky would say, you miss 100% of the shots you never take!

[JohnPaul]

JP's elitist attitude is exactly why the sport is dying.

As mentioned, mixed class races have much greater delta V.

Nascar races routinely have more than a 20% differential between the pole sitter and the back of the grid starters.

Formula One currently has a rather large differential between the Mercedes car (Hamilton) and many of the other teams.

They all seem mature enough to not whine about it JP.

I'm not elitist, just stop talking about writing a bigger check. Everyone at a majors race spends a ton if money and the cheapest part is the entry fee. My overall point about this thread is that you shouldn't be in a race that you can't compete in. Race in the lower ranks and get your chops up and come kick our ass. We'll be waiting with open arms

[marshall9]

I have been thinking of doing a few pro races next year instead of the same races with the same group at the same tracks, where Brian C and I race. I would be okay with a Q rule, if I can't get within a percentage of the group, I get sent home. I failed to qualify for the race, end of story, I go back and practice to get better. I am in the lead pack consistently in our series, and think I could qualify well enough to "Make" the grid. Maybe at the back of it, but make it. So John, should I not even try? I agree with the opinion that if I am too slow, then I fail to qualify for the race. That's why they call it qualifying. If I am too slow, exclude me. A series that needs all that have the money to pay a fee, isn't a "Pro" series, it's a dangerous situation for all on track. At our last event, we had a newbie, that had a red streamer tied to his roll bar, and his rain light on, but I still was caught by surprise a few times when catching him. It's kind of requires mirrors in front as well as behind to be heads up. He deserved to be out there, and got more toward the pace as the weekend progressed. Also, when we caught him, it was fun to use him as pawn, slowing the driver behind after I was around him, I'm sure that driver was frustrated, because the slow guy ruined his race....but that's the difference between racing and just being able to lay down a good lap. I think communication is key when a series allows newbies. TELL them to stay put, and make the fast guys get around them...they may not know that. A lot of the posts here, complain that some guy made a move when he saw closing cars approach. It's called driver's meetings. If you can't negotiate around a slower car, and have a little patience, then you have as much to learn as the rookie, IMO. Most of us, have been in a situation where we were glad to see back markers in front of us, as we had been trying to figure out how to beat a faster car, and saw that as an opportunity for the faster guy to make a mistake, and give us the opportunity to out race him, without necessarily turning faster times.....anything else is called Solo.

[Ian Lenhart]

I'm not elitist, just stop talking about writing a bigger check. Everyone at a majors race spends a ton if money and the cheapest part is the entry fee. My overall point about this thread is that you shouldn't be in a race that you can't compete in. Race in the lower ranks and get your chops up and come kick our ass. We'll be waiting with open arms

JohnPaul - Are you Shooter McGavin from Happy Gilmore?

McGavin: I eat pieces of **** like you for breakfast. Happy: You eat pieces of **** for breakfast? McGavin: No.

I know a few guys that would run a major with the entry fee as the highest weekend expense, running on used tires and sleeping in trailers and tents. Excellent drivers in cars they can afford. They enjoy competing for mid-pack honors. It's club racing, if you can't handle a little traffic to make your 30 second lead a bit more interesting, I suggest you stick to high speed autocross. Most races are exciting for a lap or two and fizzle down to sizable gaps by mid race.
I've seen F1 cars on track with older FC without issue in vintage races.

[alangbaker]

Huh? That won't work as it would be going off all the time as I run wheel to wheel with someone running the same speed as me for a lap or more. I get where you are trying to go but don't think you have thought it all out.

I have seen race directors or stewards here in Canada watch certain new drivers on test days & would not let them race on a weekend but encourage them to come back to the next test day to work on getting up to speed. That worked!!! Imagine that. The driver was back the following race weekend & improved enough to race. I wish more organizations addressed these safety issues in the same respect. We are talking about Majors which is supposed to be the best of the best.

As a rookie, only looking forward to his second season of racing (and my first season was abbreviated somewhat by car problems), I would hope that if the directors/stewards of my events (SCCBC/BCHMR) had come to me and said, "Don't race this weekend", I would have taken it in good part.

In fact, in my very first practice day, I was pulled in after having spun a few times for a little "chat", but once the officials understood that I was literally having my first session in a new car, they were happy enough to let me back out, and I don't think I betrayed their faith in me.

My proudest moment of my first season was when a fellow FF driver—who'd been racing since the mid '70s—told me after one race where we'd been wheel to wheel about 6" apart that he was completely comfortable running that close.

So the focus with new and slower drivers does need to be on how they handle being new and slower. If they understand that faster cars will come up to pass them, and that what they should do is run the racing line and make no sudden moves (with perhaps just holding wide of the apex when a small pack is coming through), then they can run with the faster cars.

It's when they're so overwhelmed by what's going on that they react in surprise and fear to faster cars coming up on them that I think you have to worry about.

[alangbaker]

No sense for the old fat DFL guy in a CF to hold everyone up.
I purposely stayed away from the majors events and will mind the entries for regionals at Laguna for the same reason.

A mixed class race of FF, CF, F5, FC, and FV requires awareness from all of us, but it can be done. Its actually less stressful than an open test day with Atlantics, FB, and DSR coming out of nowhere.

As BillH advises, mixed class racing can have some extreme delta V closing speeds. Yet, the guys get it done.

Us slower guys don't hold all the brain cells for bonehead moves. I have seen individuals who run at the pointy end of their classes make repeated low percentage moves, each time ending with torn off corner DNFs for both.

Situation awareness from EVERYONE is required, not just the slower guys. Last time I checked, we all are out for fun, not to get a pro ride.

Amen.

We've got a guy running an F1000 that is often out there with no other F1000 who still comes charging in late and it it weren't for the awareness of the guys he's chopping, he get T-boned. His last race of the year, he ran over an FV on a short straight, when just a moment's more patience would have let him pass on the longer straight that followed.

[Modo]

So, if John Paul is formerly from Atlanta, he does have experience ............ since when is a D-Sports a fast car, well Michael (me), since they ditched the Cosworth and 2-stroke piece-o-crap for the new and latest 4-stroke-4-valve-per-cyl deal .......... Rock-On!!!! is it still 750lbs.??? w/o gentleman in the cockpit

[Zcurves]

JP makes some good points, although his presentation may be abrasive to some if you don't know him. He's a good guy and has supported F1000 for a long time.

This is my fourth year in F1000, third year in USF1000/F1KCS/Majors, and eighth year in open wheel racing. I passed the % rule with a 1:54 at VIR this weekend. Accidents do happen and in many cases the responsibility is "shared." I try to give room when possible to guys that are obviously faster. Am I perfect? Hardly.

I share the same opinion as others that the only predictability is to hold the race line. If other guys are that much faster then they will pass you off the race line. One fellow competitor that I have a great deal of respect for has had incidents where other drivers made an unpredictable move and is now the owner of multiple aerobatic cars. It's not foolproof because some have very different race lines than others.

Am I at a point that I think I can beat the best? NO, but there is usually some good racing in the middle of the pack. The competition at Majors is much better than in Regionals (although I'm doing those too). As with any other competitive endeavor, the best way to get better is to go against the best. Attrition commonly associated with our class (as displayed at Road Atlanta recently) offers opportunity to occasionally compete for the podium. Meanwhile, I'm supporting the class with an entry and the money that comes with it. When there are only 9 entries in the class, it won't last long if you cut the three or four slowest cars.

I'd be pretty upset if I had spent thousands of dollars to make it to a club race and be told that I couldn't race. Now maybe if previous event lap times were used to determine eligability, then I wouldn't have to go through the expense to get to the track.