F1000 build from scratch?

[aspetuck]

Can this be done? If so, roughly how much would it cost? This may seem ridiculous, but I cannot find detailed regulations for F1000. Can anyone provide a link?

[Maciej]

Can this be done? If so, roughly how much would it cost? This may seem ridiculous, but I cannot find detailed regulations for F1000. Can anyone provide a link?

Anything can be done. The cost is predicated on if you're building it yourself and what your qualifications are. The cost will vary vastly depending on how much of the work you'll be doing.

[Steve Davis]

GCR 9.1.1.G
Starts on page 348 of the newly revamped April 2014 GCR .

Steve, FV80

[aspetuck]

Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for

[SWMyers]

Jon Stadaucher has built several DSRs from scratch and has an FB in the works.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55900

[Mike Holland]

Gary Hickman (ghickman on Apex) , JJ Ludeman, ChrisCrowe, and even the Phoenix have scratch built cars. The Phoenix is now in its 3 revision. There is a very long thread of JJ Ludeman from day one. Go back or findthreads started by Gary HHickmam to find his car. There are some others that started with a FC and converted the engine and gearbox. It will take any where from 3 to 5 years to do it.

[ghickman]

So far I believe I'm the only FB builder / driver that has actually 100% scratch built a car and was competitive with it.

Now keep in mind I'm not some dude working out of his garage. I have about a decades experience with Solidworks CAD modeling and my formula car parts building goes clear back to before my days with Swift in the early 80's.

Not to discourage anyone from this but unless you have a wide variety of skills, and a large pile of cash, an extra 2000 hrs plus of time to kill then DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS.

It would be a heck of a lot simpler to just purchase a VD FC and do a conversion. This may satisfy your need to tinker but most importantly is getting on track as soon as possible.

I'm a pilot and I've been around home built aircraft all of my adult life. I can't tell you how many home built planes either never get completed or they get sold off almost immediatley after completion. There is a good reason why.

[JerryH]

Tyler Thielman has his converted Van Dieman for sale at a true bargin price. That will be the lowest cost way to get into the class......cheaper and easier than converting one from scratch. He has it posted on apexspeed.
As the builder of JDR's, I can tell you for sure.....building one from scratch will definately cost a ton more......and can easily tke two years.

Jerry Hodges

[Brett Lane]

So far I believe I'm the only FB builder / driver that has actually 100% scratch built a car and was competitive with it.

Now keep in mind I'm not some dude working out of his garage. I have about a decades experience with Solidworks CAD modeling and my formula car parts building goes clear back to before my days with Swift in the early 80's.

Not to discourage anyone from this but unless you have a wide variety of skills, and a large pile of cash, an extra 2000 hrs plus of time to kill then DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS.

It would be a heck of a lot simpler to just purchase a VD FC and do a conversion. This may satisfy your need to tinker but most importantly is getting on track as soon as possible.

I'm a pilot and I've been around home built aircraft all of my adult life. I can't tell you how many home built planes either never get completed or they get sold off almost immediatley after completion. There is a good reason why.

Gary is correct as I converted a VD with the help of Jay Novak. Not the only one, and we are all happy car owners. In the beginning of my FB adventure in 2009, I talked to Brandon Dixon about building a Citation, and realized I was WAY over my head. Can't begin to think about building something from scratch.

Good luck with everything on the left coast this season!

[ghickman]

I forgot to mention this. The VD conversion in the right hands is still ultra competitive.

Ask Jason Slahor about this, held the pole both days at RA.

And I wonder how fast Coop might be if he was still in his VD conversion....just saying?

[Jnovak]

we still build the VD conversions that have been so fast. Call Dave Piontek.

New news. Dave and I are both retiring, so no more VD kits available from us. We may have a buyer for the fixtures and the drawing and I will make an announcement when that happens.

[S Lathrop]

Your question is interesting.

All the people who build FBs or any other car for that matter, were scratch builders at one time.

I am building an airplane. I am considered a scratch builder because I am building all the parts for my plane. But I am working from plans that someone else drew. I am not an aeronautical engineer. There are many examples of the plane I am building flying today.

I had a hand in assembling almost 100 cars before I built my first car from scratch. But I did not design that car. The first car that I might say that I built from scratch was the Zink Z14 FSV. But that car was a redesign of the Zink Z11 FSV. It was a monocoque chassis vs. a tube frame as Z11 chassis. I built all the chassis and suspension components of the Zink Z16, but Ed Zink drew the car. When I got to the 94 Citation, that was the first car that I build from scratch. I did the design work, built the chassis, the suspension and did the body bucks. All the cars since have started the same way with me doing the first example.

My question for you is do you have the back ground that Gary Hickman had or are you really starting from scratch? By that I mean , starting with little or no racing experience.

I really enjoy looking at new designs. I often find that people who are not burdened by years of experience come up with some interesting ideas, even when the overall car might not be a world beater.

My favorite example was an SAE car that I saw at 3 Rivers in Canada. Those students had solved one of the fundamental problems with mono-shock cars and did not realize they had done it.

Go for it and don't let anyone talk you out of it.

[ghickman]

Sorry for the thread hi-jack

Steve....tell us about the plane you are building?

If you are ever in San Diego give me a ring and I'll take you up for some acro in one of the most badass biplanes ever built.

And Steve is right....if being a car builder is what you want to do then do it.

[S Lathrop]

Sorry for the thread hi-jack

Steve....tell us about the plane you are building?

If you are ever in San Diego give me a ring and I'll take you up for some acro in one of the most badass biplanes ever built.

And Steve is right....if being a car builder is what you want to do then do it.

4 place Bearhawk with an O 540 Lycoming. A SUV for the air.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

If you are not stuck on Fb and want something that looks cool.....
http://andrecars.com/
The Reynard inverter...
Plans are free. Register, download, build.....

While you're at it make a second copy

[JJLudemann]

It's definitely possible. Or maybe I speak too soon as mine isn't running yet, but it's a roller now. I've had the additional difficulty of doing it in Thailand, where it's now illegal to import used motorcycle parts, and they don't put spaces between the words because 43 consonants, 26 vowels, 5 tones and 2 vowel lengths just don't make it difficult enough.

You have to remember the 80/20 rule: the first 80% of the work takes 80% of the time, and the last 20% of the work takes the other 80% of the time .

By the way, that Andre Cars project looks really cool. I didn't know that the Reynard Inverter had gone open source. Now I can check if a Hayabusa engine fits in my car, which is useful because I've found a guy with ten of them already in country.

-Jim

[Gary Slahor]

I forgot to mention this. The VD conversion in the right hands is still ultra competitive.

Ask Jason Slahor about this, held the pole both days at RA.

And I wonder how fast Coop might be if he was still in his VD conversion....just saying?

Just to put in a shameless plug:

The superfast Van Diemen Novak conversion is currently for sale at a very reasonable price.... and it has lots of brand new parts after the shunt in Sunday's race. You can't run at the front of the field for less !

Check out the FB For Sale section.

Gary

[BeerBudgetRacing]

By the way, that Andre Cars project looks really cool. I didn't know that the Reynard Inverter had gone open source. Now I can check if a Hayabusa engine fits in my car, which is useful because I've found a guy with ten of them already in country.

-Jim

Its an interesting concept...open source design.
Participate at many levels. Build parts and they get a piece, which is fair.
I could see this becoming popular like homebuilt aircraft....

[Earley Motorsports]

I agree fully with Steve. Just go for it, study designs which work and follow some of them. You don't know if you don't try. I am building a frame which I have been for a while. I am looking at maybe the F600 class but we will wait and see. I need to finish the 61 first. Then I will get back into it. It is fun if nothing else.
Good luck.
Graham.

[provamo]

inspirational.........................

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/watch-...@matthardigree

[palmac]

So far I believe I'm the only FB builder / driver that has actually 100% scratch built a car and was competitive with it.

Now keep in mind I'm not some dude working out of his garage. I have about a decades experience with Solidworks CAD modeling and my formula car parts building goes clear back to before my days with Swift in the early 80's.

Not to discourage anyone from this but unless you have a wide variety of skills, and a large pile of cash, an extra 2000 hrs plus of time to kill then DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS.

It would be a heck of a lot simpler to just purchase a VD FC and do a conversion. This may satisfy your need to tinker but most importantly is getting on track as soon as possible.

I'm a pilot and I've been around home built aircraft all of my adult life. I can't tell you how many home built planes either never get completed or they get sold off almost immediately after completion. There is a good reason why.

Also being a pilot and having built several home built aircraft myself and sold countless aircraft engines to those attempting to do the same, I can say with certainty that around 90% or more projects are NOT completed by the original owner. To build an aircraft or race car or any endeavor of this nature takes a lot more than just skill. Skill can be obtained, traits such as persistence and determination not so. and these are in my opinion the very traits that determine the outcome. Now if you happen to be talented and determined well stand back great things can happen.

To me, the notion of buying someone else's airplane, or race car just wont do. It will NEVER be how I want it, it will never be mine. so despite the hours, the exaggerated costs it must be made by myself.

Finally if one just looks at the completed project as the be all, then they are sadly missing the point as the process and journey along with all the mini triumphs one achieves during the build are every bit a part of the pleasure.

BTW Garry, your race car and rear set up in particular are a big motivator to me.

[Wright D]

To me, the notion of buying someone else's airplane, or race car just wont do. It will NEVER be how I want it, it will never be mine. so despite the hours, the exaggerated costs it must be made by myself.

Finally if one just looks at the completed project as the be all, then they are sadly missing the point as the process and journey along with all the mini triumphs one achieves during the build are every bit a part of the pleasure.

BTW Garry, your race car and rear set up in particular are a big motivator to me.

The first F1000 I designed was the Phoenix F1K.07 in 2006. Since then Phoenix has launched a F1K.09, F1K.11, and a F1K.13, with a F1K.18 in the works. The design process is super rewarding, the build process is super rewarding, and the racing, it is just icing on the cake for me.

The fastest we (Phoenix) have ever gone from concept to car out on track racing was 7 months. It may be able to be done faster if you are willing to sacrifice in a few areas that can save time up front, but may cost time or money later down the road. If you are not going to be a car manufacture, then fixtures, jigs, and molds can all be minimal or non existent. Us ex-FSAE kids get good at creative solutions to these types of problems because the rules require that each school build a brand new car every year.

The most time consuming part of launching a new F1000 car design is doing really good molds for the body work. Gary and Tony taught me tons in making good molds fast, and the trick is that there is NO trick. Good molds just take a LOT of long hard work. So if you were to build a one off, then why bother with molds for parts of the car that you may only ever need to make one of? For a front wing this would be crazy, as you'll need way more then one. However; an engine air box might only ever get built once, so carve a hunk of foam and cover it in glass and epoxy. After the epoxy cures dissolve out the foam with some acetone. Boom, instant air box.

Like wise, You may not need fancy jigs for the A-arms either, just a piece of ply wood with some bolt holes would work great for building a few dozen parts.

Buying wheel hubs, bearings, ect from a junk car and adapting them to fit our needs can save money, but may take more time then custom built units.

I encourage you to ask a lot of questions. F1000 is an amazing place to go auto racing because it is made up of a super helpful group of people who all love these cars.

What most people wont tell you, building racing cars is 10% intelligence and 90% grit.

[palmac]

The most time consuming part of launching a new F1000 car design is doing really good molds for the body work.

I encourage you to ask a lot of questions. F1000 is an amazing place to go auto racing because it is made up of a super helpful group of people who all love these cars.

What most people wont tell you, building racing cars is 10% intelligence and 90% grit.

It may be just me, but once I learned how to make decent FRP molds I never looked back, started with large RC models then morphed into kit airplane building. And now, with some luck, building a race car. I have never been too fond of the lost foam system as its messy not very professional, takes tons of filler and time, is generally heavier and is a one off. My thinking is why not just take a mold off of it rather than use it? The time is mostly tied up in making a decent plug. Not so much the actual mold shells. I can count how many molds Ive made for just one or two parts. Still worth making proper molds IMO.

Well time to put my money where my mouth is RE my "fun" FW11 build, its officially started, I was down the junk yard yesterday rolling around in the mud and walked away with a hand full of Honda Civic drive shafts, and hubs. Need some center lock wheels 8" fronts and 10" rears, ideally used! Thin pickings here in Oz.