Apparently parts are readily available...

[blackhole]

Here is my rant for the day...

At the fall F1200 meeting everyone was saying that parts are readily available. Now that the car is done we are starting to rebuild some of our engines for the new season. It turns out that we need some new barrels so... we started calling different "engine builders" to purchase some new pistons and barrels. Nobody has any they want to sell.


Hmmmm I think this is a VERY BIG PROBLEM. BUT PARTS ARE READILY AVAILABLE!!!

This is unacceptable!!

I think it's funny when people talk about how to get new people and keep people in the class. When we have a problem like this. Something needs to be done! Why are we all turning a blind eye to this?

It is really frustrating trying to build a top notch engine with parts I wouldn't even put on my street car. I love this class but I hate the ignorance that is being displayed when dealing with some crucial issues.

Alright gentlman let me have it....

[problemchild]

Whether you are building racing cars, racing engines, custom machinery, or small volume custom anything, your future in that business is very limited if you are trying to buy parts in # of days before your project completion. Successful companies are purchasing parts years and many months ahead. Building smart inventory and developing supplier relationships is probably the biggest factor in being a successful engine builder in the 21st century.

[Steve Bamford]

I did read the minutes from the fall meeting & Kevin is right, it did clearly say there was not an issue getting parts. What I can only assume is these parts are available if you deal with one of the different engine builders who have been around for many years based on this.

I would imagine this makes it very difficult for new builders to have much success based on this. Not sure that is fair or unfair.

When my competitors call me up & want something from me that I know I will use for my own customers some where I am reluctant to sell usually. I guess being an engine builder selling parts I will make money on with one of my customers is the same deal.

I feel your pain Kevin as obviously these are not parts you can get off the shelf. Why not post parts you want here on Apexspeed & see what you can come up with the racing community?

[blackhole]

Whether you are building racing cars, racing engines, custom machinery, or small volume custom anything, your future in that business is very limited if you are trying to buy parts in # of days before your project completion. Successful companies are purchasing parts years and many months ahead. Building smart inventory and developing supplier relationships is probably the biggest factor in being a successful engine builder in the 21st century.

Greg, I completly agree with you. When we called leading engine builders today some told us that they only have 2 sets left for themselves. And they don't know how to get anymore. That makes it impossible for us to be able to build our or stock up or anyone elses inventory. We have been in contact with these people for about a year and half now and it's the same old story no one has any and have no idea of when they can get them. We have been looking for a while now with no luck! We just used up our last new set.

[hojof1]

i see you are searching for the element called unobtainium.

you're not gonna get them from any vendors in the US, no chance.
buying used engines complete or long blocks is your only shot.

if it were me i'd look in south america and learn to speak spanish/portuguese, you might have some luck then.

[problemchild]

i see you are searching for the element called unobtainium.

.

Many of the "hard to get" parts get bought in lots or limited production runs, sometimes in conjunction with other VW related items. That is why nobody will have beams for example, then every VW store in NA has tons of them at 50% reduced. Over the past decade, there have been group buys of piston rings, P&C, and other specific engine parts, made and organized by the vendors in the community, which is certainly an "old boy" mentality. As when anytime that the old boys run the show, there tends to be stability, few changes, and extreme difficulty to outsiders, newbies, short-term vendors, etc to crack the market. On the hand, how can you expect 40 year survivors, as vendors in the community, to welcome hostile new contenders to the market with "reasonable" pricing, when they invested $3K 5 years ago to purchase their own life-time supply of P&C. Its a very complicated process probably requiring finesse by those trying to establish themselves.

PS ..... Remember that the "old boys" of today were once in Kevin's position. I've heard the stories from both perspectives and it goes on in virtually every class. In 30 years, maybe Kevin will be the leader of the "old boys". As we saw in Canadian FF last year, the "old boys" can be beat in the short-term but it takes one helluva commitment.

[BLS]

I think this is just simple - Only FV is using 1200cc P&C and maybe a very few restorers. No demand, but plenty of demand for 1600 and larger.

[blackhole]

Many of the "hard to get" parts get bought in lots or limited production runs, sometimes in conjunction with other VW related items. That is why nobody will have beams for example, then every VW store in NA has tons of them at 50% reduced. Over the past decade, there have been group buys of piston rings, P&C, and other specific engine parts, made and organized by the vendors in the community, which is certainly an "old boy" mentality. As when anytime that the old boys run the show, there tends to be stability, few changes, and extreme difficulty to outsiders, newbies, short-term vendors, etc to crack the market. On the hand, how can you expect 40 year survivors, as vendors in the community, to welcome hostile new contenders to the market with "reasonable" pricing, when they invested $3K 5 years ago to purchase their own life-time supply of P&C. Its a very complicated process probably requiring finesse by those trying to establish themselves.

Again I agree with you. I only have one question what do we do (not just me but the FV community) do from here? If these parts are not available how does anyone rebuild an engine?

This post was not entirly directed at us I am speaking for every other person that wants to get an engine rebuilt and can't get any parts. If these suppiers only have a few left for themselves. Soon they will be racing by themselves. Something needs to be done so this class doesn't die.

I remember what the group was saying at the Fall F1200 meeting. "we don't want to change anything in fear of loosing car counts" Again i have to agree... but we have to look at it from the other way too. Eventually we can't rebuild engines any more and than people can't race either. So are we going to wait until we have have fewer car counts and than change and "rebuild the class" or change now while we have the car counts and people are still motivated to race?? Thats the big question! I don't know which is better either....

[problemchild]

Again I agree with you. I only have one question what do we do (not just me but the FV community) do from here? If these parts are not available how does anyone rebuild an engine?

This post was not entirly directed at us I am speaking for every other person that wants to get an engine rebuilt and can't get any parts. If these suppiers only have a few left for themselves. Soon they will be racing by themselves. Something needs to be done so this class doesn't die.

I remember what the group was saying at the Fall F1200 meeting. "we don't want to change anything in fear of loosing car counts" Again i have to agree... but we have to look at it from the other way too. Eventually we can't rebuild engines any more and than people can't race either. So are we going to wait until we have have fewer car counts and than change and "rebuild the class" or change now while we have the car counts and people are still motivated to race?? Thats the big question! I don't know which is better either....

I don't know how many people in the FV community have been told by their engine builder that there will be supply issues. We have 4 engines with good P&C and a serviceable spare P&C set on the shelf ..... unless I threw them out by now, so I have never asked the question of mine. With the engine rebuilding business being down, and the gluttony of used engines on the market,(our 4 are for sale) it seems hard to believe there could be a shortage of any parts right now. Is it a problem at the competitor level or the smaller engine builder level? Very few competitors buy P&C.

[Matt King]

Sounds like it's time for someone to drag their old piston knurler out of storage.

[Bruce]

Try http://aapistons.com/shop.html?p=2

[Rolling Stone]

Try http://aapistons.com/shop.html?p=2

I cannot believe the price of the VW Round headlight wire guards on the site...are they gold plated!!!!

[blackhole]

Try http://aapistons.com/shop.html?p=2

They are Chinese. We are currently in the testing phase with them right now. We all ready blew up a set on the dyno so we don't if they are reliable yet. The sleeves are much softer than kolbenschmidt.

[hojof1]

what you haven't found berrylium lined cylinders yet!!

most drivers probably dont notice there's a supply issue until they run into serious problems with their current unit, and then it's fairly easy to go find complete race ready motors in the marketplace if needed as greg eluded to and the prices are very reasonable if you ask me.

most weekend racers only care about the fact that as long as their engine comes back once a year freshened up and is ready to bolt in and has no issues they're good to go. those who carry a spare engine are even less concerned.

i dont know the answer but how many "new lumps" have been created by the main engine builders in the past few years???probably a very very select few, most likely frankensein's where they've mix and matched from their in house supply.

Plus with a shrinking total number of cars in service in the US there's even less demand than there was in previous years so there's probably enough engines in circulation, which is why it's probably not percieved as an issue really even for the current builders.

[blackhole]

what you haven't found berrylium lined cylinders yet!!

most drivers probably dont notice there's a supply issue until they run into serious problems with their current unit, and then it's fairly easy to go find complete race ready motors in the marketplace if needed as greg eluded to and the prices are very reasonable if you ask me.

most weekend racers only care about the fact that as long as their engine comes back once a year freshened up and is ready to bolt in and has no issues they're good to go. those who carry a spare engine are even less concerned.

i dont know the answer but how many "new lumps" have been created by the main engine builders in the past few years???probably a very very select few, most likely frankensein's where they've mix and matched from their in house supply.

Plus with a shrinking total number of cars in service in the US there's even less demand than there was in previous years so there's probably enough engines in circulation, which is why it's probably not percieved as an issue really even for the current builders.

I kept the berrylium stuff for me!

If my engine just needs new P&C I don't want to have to go out and buy a whole new engine. Thats a little extreme! I want to be able to buy new ones machine them and install them. I also wouldn't want to buy a new used engine just to hope that those P&C are good. I think this approach is a little short sighted. I mean F1600 from what I understand had the same issues and they eventually changed to a completly new engine. I don't know what is difficult about our problem? F1600 is doing really well after the transition so I don't understand why F1200 can't?

[grapefarmeral]

Kevin,

Just read the posts from the South... There's plenty of parts, beams, backing plates, drums, etc etc.... probably a mountain of pistons and cylinders somewhere and all for really cheap...

[Steve Davis]

They are Chinese. We are currently in the testing phase with them right now. We all ready blew up a set on the dyno so we don't if they are reliable yet. The sleeves are much softer than kolbenschmidt.

Mike Palermo has reported just the opposite about the cylinders and has had good success with them. You might want to give him a call.

Steve, FV80

[blackhole]

Kevin,

Just read the posts from the South... There's plenty of parts, beams, backing plates, drums, etc etc.... probably a mountain of pistons and cylinders somewhere and all for really cheap...

I would like to be able to buy parts in Canada. The exchange rate shipping, border expenses etc.. It adds up to the point where it is not economical for a Canadian resident. Anytime we order parts from the us we end up spending sometimes 30% more than the original cost of the part. This is supposed to be cheap entry level racing. And it would be if the parts would be sourced locally in Canada. We have done our fair share of dumpster diving (swap meets, forums, barns etc..) with not much luck.

[blackhole]

Mike Palermo has reported just the opposite about the cylinders and has had good success with them. You might want to give him a call.

Steve, FV80

We have been talking to him for a while even he has had his fair share of issues with them. There are few things you need to do to them to get them reliable. That's why we are in the testing stages I wouldn't go as far as trusting them in a race situation yet.

[butch deer]

I was in the FV parts business from 1969 untill 2005 when I retired. I worked with SRacing after that till Jim retired. In 1995 or so the supply of good quality new parts started to dry up.
I bought a blast cabinet, parts washer , and became a reconditioner of used parts sourced from junk yards all over the world. Since then many of my good sources have either gone out of business or run out of parts. For many manufactures the demand was too low to spend money on new tooling so whenever there old tooling wore out they quit making parts. Those that are willing to make new parts in low volume have either sacrificed quality(a street restored car than never exceeds 4000 rpm and is driven less than 200 miles a year to a few car shows doesnt need great parts) or had to put in substantial price increases to supply quality stuff at low volumes. I'm glad I am no longer in the junk business.
Those that say there is no parts problem have been kidding themselves for 15 years or more. If someone makes some good P&C sets nex some other part will be in short supply.
Good luck with the parts hunt.

Butch

[blackhole]

I was in the FV parts business from 1969 untill 2005 when I retired. I worked with SRacing after that till Jim retired. In 1995 or so the supply of good quality new parts started to dry up.
I bought a blast cabinet, parts washer , and became a reconditioner of used parts sourced from junk yards all over the world. Since then many of my good sources have either gone out of business or run out of parts. For many manufactures the demand was too low to spend money on new tooling so whenever there old tooling wore out they quit making parts. Those that are willing to make new parts in low volume have either sacrificed quality(a street restored car than never exceeds 4000 rpm and is driven less than 200 miles a year to a few car shows doesnt need great parts) or had to put in substantial price increases to supply quality stuff at low volumes. I'm glad I am no longer in the junk business.
Those that say there is no parts problem have been kidding themselves for 15 years or more. If someone makes some good P&C sets nex some other part will be in short supply.
Good luck with the parts hunt.

Butch

[grapefarmeral]

Kevin, My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek

[Rolling Stone]

Its like having a pain in your body,you ignore it and ignore it,eventually you HAVE to go to the Doctor.The Doctor checks you out and says "Sorry you need a transplant" if you had come earlier it would have been solved!!So the surgeon removes your 1200 heart and puts in a 1600 strong one.(Pretty deep eh?)

[Rolling Stone]

I had just eaten some Brownies when I posted above,they tasted a bit funny,will have a word with Bev about her cooking I guess.

[problemchild]

Its like having a pain in your body,you ignore it and ignore it,eventually you HAVE to go to the Doctor.The Doctor checks you out and says "Sorry you need a transplant" if you had come earlier it would have been solved!!So the surgeon removes your 1200 heart and puts in a 1600 strong one.(Pretty deep eh?)

When you ignore your doctor for 30 yrs then you go into palliative care.

Your anology breaks down in this case though, because you are going to force 98 people to get new hearts because 2 are having trouble replacing theirs, one of which wants to buy in Canada without paying importing costs.

[blackhole]

In karting when any part was not readily available to everyone it was than deemed illegal to run. Than everyone is than forced to get rid of the illegal part and run the part that is available. Ie: Chinese p&c. It worked really well. I know when you live in America it's easy to say import taxes and exchange rates are not that big of a deal. I invite anyone that lives in the US to come to canada and ship all their parts over and pay 30-40% sometimes even double depending on different factors. And yes I'm bitter about always having to pay more. Who wouldn't be? This thread is becoming pointless as always. Let's just wait and see what happens when all the old guys retire and they keep all their rusted parts and reminisce on how they killed an entry level class just because they were stubborn.

[Daryl DeArman]

Let's just wait and see what happens when all the old guys retire and they keep all their rusted parts and reminisce on how they killed an entry level class just because they were stubborn.

So, when they won't change, we should. Otherwise, aren't we being just as stubborn? Change to FST and all the issues with FV are solved and those that stay FV will have the same parts supply for fewer people. They win, we win.

[blackhole]

1

[BLS]

"Let's just wait and see what happens when all the old guys retire and they keep all their rusted parts and reminisce on how they killed an entry level class just because they were stubborn."

I don't know about the Canadian series, but it appears those "old guys" are what keeps FV alive in the states. You either get old or die young, take your choice...

[blackhole]

"Let's just wait and see what happens when all the old guys retire and they keep all their rusted parts and reminisce on how they killed an entry level class just because they were stubborn."

I don't know about the Canadian series, but it appears those "old guys" are what keeps FV alive in the states. You either get old or die young, take your choice...

What I'm getting at is what do we do when your gone??

Anyways this thread way out of hand this is my last comment.

[Rolling Stone]

Back ome! we called this "Banging your head against a brick Wall" or "Flogging a dead horse" If I was 20 years younger I would change all this,I would tell the CASC that they....Ummmmmm Damn!! forgot what I was going to say.I am one of the older generation and we still can have input into this discussion on FTS and Formala Vaa I can tell you!!!!nothing rong with owr memorys you young wippersnappers!!!.

[Rolling Stone]

When you ignore your doctor for 30 yrs then you go into palliative care.

Your anology breaks down in this case though, because you are going to force 98 people to get new hearts because 2 are having trouble replacing theirs, one of which wants to buy in Canada without paying importing costs.

What does palliative mean

[BLS]

Hey Kevin,

Sorry, I didn't mean that to be anything other than "tongue in cheek". Parts are a PROBLEM that needs to be solved. I'm all for changing as needed.

Barry

[grapefarmeral]

Frank,

Palliative would be easier to understand for a Welshman if it had more consonants..


Here's the description:

Gofal lliniarol (o'r palliare Lladin, i clogyn) yn ardal gofal iechyd sy'n canolbwyntio ar lleddfu ac atal dioddefaint cleifion.

[Rolling Stone]

Frank,

Palliative would be easier to understand for a Welshman if it had more consonants..


Here's the description:

Gofal lliniarol (o'r palliare Lladin, i clogyn) yn ardal gofal iechyd sy'n canolbwyntio ar lleddfu ac atal dioddefaint cleifion.

All very Fine Boyo!!but whats a consonant?by the way..thats a great Welsh accent you have.

[Steve Bamford]

Ok guys instead of complaining about parts what is your solution to the problem?

I hear lots of whinning but I don't see any solutions presented.

FF made the move to allow the Honda Fit which took 3 plus years to make a transition & it was not all that smooth. That power plant could be restricted to similar power curves & same HP as a Kent. FC made the move from Pinto to Zetec prior to that & the waters were rough there too.

With that said both classes are higher dollar cars to operate then FV & most FV drivers tend to be on a tighter budget. I don't know of another engine for FV you could replace & get near the same parity. If there is please advise. Also I don't see many people in the F1200 group looking to convert their cars. You will likely lose more then you will gain if you push to convert.

You could always simply convert to FST & run where there are other FST's are running if you choose.

You can also deal with many of the FV engine builders who are out there currently that have parts.

Or buy one of the many engines available that are for sale for less then cost of building new ones. I know between Greg & myself we have a few of the strongest engines in the country for sale & yet no one seems to want to buy them. Kevin you yourself even told me no one was able to pass me as long as I had a draft.

Is there some suggestions on what you would like done? I am interested to hear.

[G.B.]

Well said, Steve.

[blackhole]

Every year at the fall meeting I always bring up solutions. I always get shut down. FST is not available in Canada to run. I don't want to buy more engines. I already have 4 I just want to be able to rebuild those. The engine builders don't have parts either for the masses that was the reason why I made this thread in the first place.

What Steve said about how FF converted makes perfect sense. I just need more than a 1 man band to put it in motion.

I completly agree with you Steve you have probaly the strongest engine in Canada. I don't know why somebody doesn't buy it. If I had the money I would!!

[Matt King]

The only practical short-term solution is to find a usable substitute for the KS P&Cs. You should probably focus on trying to make the Chinese stuff work.

[Steve Bamford]

Every year at the fall meeting I always bring up solutions. I always get shut down. FST is not available in Canada to run. I don't want to buy more engines. I already have 4 I just want to be able to rebuild those. The engine builders don't have parts either for the masses that was the reason why I made this thread in the first place.

What Steve said about how FF converted makes perfect sense. I just need more than a 1 man band to put it in motion.

I completly agree with you Steve you have probaly the strongest engine in Canada. I don't know why somebody doesn't buy it. If I had the money I would!!

What suggestion/solution do you feel would be a good option?

I, unlike yourself, are not interested in being a engine builder at all so I don't share the same concerns. I understand your wants & desires however that doesn't reflect to many other competitors thus it not being as big an issue.

There are other classes you could become an engine builder in if you wanted but I totally get that you wish to do this in FV because you run FV. You have to see the reality that there are zero new cars being built for FV due to the cost. There still are new FC, FF cars being built so you have to keep that in mind that the class you are running works with such low budgets that no one can build new cars or parts & make money from what I can see. Plus the availability of used equipment takes up a lot of the slack.

What ideas have you presented to help make change that were shot down relating to the engines?