SCCA Pro announces new class. formula Lites

[allof6]

PFMazda is a good class but the one problem with PFM is that Crawford, Arcerio and company don't control the almighty dollar on it. Yes Crawford has built replacement tubs for the PFM but that's about it. The good thing about the USA is its entrepreneurial spirit. Good or Bad that America and like any business it will either succeed or fail.

Unless it has huge subsidies from VW and Pirelli, and excellent tv package and a budget area around 200k its just going to dilute the situation even further.

Interesting thing though they announce the series and intend to run races yet in 2014 but show a conceptual picture and not an actual finished car. So maybe this will see the track in 2015 at the same time the new Indy Lites does.

This must mean that the employment numbers are correct and everyone is back to work with increased salaries and more disposable income. It might just work.

[Daryl DeArman]

As long as this new class doesn't take away from track time at a SCCA club event and isn't a money loser for SCCA what difference does it make?

The SCCA Club has not been a logical rung on the ladder to a pro career for quite some time.

The fact that many young hot-shots with a dream and a dollar step out of a kart and have no desire to race a SCCA formula class shouldn't hurt our feelings. We have determined what we want our cars' rules to be and it isn't what will attract the serious new kids.

[Dennis McCarthy]

We have determined what we want our cars' rules to be and it isn't what will attract the serious new kids.

You obviously haven't attended a F1600 race lately....

[Daryl DeArman]

You obviously haven't attended a F1600 race lately....

I am speaking to SCCA club.

What SCCA Pro does that doesn't take away our track time or lose money effects us negatively how?

[Dennis McCarthy]

It not very complicated, there is only so much racing money to go around. Diluting the existing pool instead of promoting the existing series helps no one, club, pro or otherwise....

[KevinFirlein]

It makes a difference because SCCA Pro already has partners that are in the junior open wheel buisniess and pay sanction fees and get basically nothing in return for it. Honda backs the F1600 series and the F2000 series averages 30+ cars but instead of promoting its already successful clients, Pro chooses to sanction a direct competitor. We already are going head to head for clients with the Mazda to Indy series as there are only 'X' number of drivers with funding available. The days of free flowing tobacco and other corporate partners is long gone. You have to fight for every penny. So SCCA Pro promptly dilutes it further by sanctioning a direct competitor to its existing partners.

If we do this right we can have 5 funded drivers in every available series all learning nothing.

[gcoffin]

SCCA club racing lost the monopoly they once enjoyed when their National Races and the RunOffs were the feeder series to professional racing a long time ago. It has been replaced by the melange of various failed pro series so one more will make no difference.

Now instead of having to beat a bunch of local club racers to move up the ladder, you just by pass them by running one of these feeder series. Simple, just eliminate the competition by pricing them out of the game. Makes perfect sense.

Problem is that the dream of the young racer starting out in say formula ford on a shoe string budget and moving up, or even being able to brag about once beating someone who did move up, vanishes. So these potential racers just never start racing.

National Races pretty much become regional races......entries go down blah blah blah.

[Swift17]

It makes a difference because SCCA Pro already has partners that are in the junior open wheel business and pay sanction fees and get basically nothing in return for it. Honda backs the F1600 series and the F2000 series averages 30+ cars but instead of promoting its already successful clients, Pro chooses to sanction a direct competitor. We already are going head to head for clients with the Mazda to Indy series as there are only 'X' number of drivers with funding available. The days of free flowing tobacco and other corporate partners is long gone. You have to fight for every penny. So SCCA Pro promptly dilutes it further by sanctioning a direct competitor to its existing partners.

If we do this right we can have 5 funded drivers in every available series all learning nothing.

(emphasis added)

[Jerry Kehoe]

Ever notice that lots of lunacy came when SCCA moved from Denver to KC? Maybe it's the BBQ sauce......just saying.....

[dalz]

I am speaking to SCCA club.

What SCCA Pro does that doesn't take away our track time or lose money effects us negatively how?

June Sprints, a couple of years ago. For reasons only known to God and SCCA corporate the glamourous Playboy MX-5 Pro Cup was added to the weekend's schedule. OW classes were shoehorned together to make room for them. About 14 cars took the green on Friday afternoon for race 1 with about 3 raccoons in turn 5 being the total crowd. It's decisions like these that make it real hard to scratch another check for a year's license and membership.

[Daryl DeArman]

It not very complicated, there is only so much racing money to go around.

Yes and building a Ritz-Carlton across the street from Four Seasons doesn't effect the Motel 6 at all.

It makes a difference because SCCA Pro already has partners that are in the junior open wheel buisniess and pay sanction fees and get basically nothing in return for it. Honda backs the F1600 series and the F2000 series averages 30+ cars but instead of promoting its already successful clients, Pro chooses to sanction a direct competitor. We already are going head to head for clients with the Mazda to Indy series as there are only 'X' number of drivers with funding available. The days of free flowing tobacco and other corporate partners is long gone. You have to fight for every penny. So SCCA Pro promptly dilutes it further by sanctioning a direct competitor to its existing partners.

If we do this right we can have 5 funded drivers in every available series all learning nothing.

^^^ This I understand and agree with. I don't know what the complaint is from SCCA Club racers other than just another excuse to complain that the next Aryton isn't racing a FV or FF here in the states.

It's decisions like these that make it real hard to scratch another check for a year's license and membership.

I haven't scratched that check to SCCA in 20 years...and I am generally not a fan of much the SCCA does. However, I don't see what the big deal is to the club racer.

[bill gillespie]

All of the negative posts point out valid thoughts and concerns, BUT what about the car ? Afaik, there aren't any North American manufacturers stepping up to the plate with a modern, safe, carbon tubbed, wheel tethered, extractible seat, formula car.

The stock VW GTI is a tad over 200 hp, and the 2015 Golf R rings the bell at 290 hp, so this engine should be very long lived.

I believe it will need to up the boost to the 250-280 hp range to be a true ladder, but that's just me. The price point will probably determine the initial success/ failure question, but they will need a Rand clone to succeed for long......let's wait and see a bit.

Flame away,
Bill

[dalz]

I don't know what the complaint is from SCCA Club racers other than just another excuse to complain that the next Aryton isn't racing a FV or FF here in the states.

My example was directly related to how Pro (snicker) made the premier club race more miserable for every OW driver. Three OW groups became two, thanks to the worthless MX-5 races.

I know no young hotshoe would be smart to spend time in club racing longer than it takes to scoop up an FA or maybe FC Runoffs title to have on the resume. Maybe many club racers are still fans of the sport at heart, and it still kills them to see it circling the drain, and principals that should know better seem to keep reaming the drainhole bigger and bigger.

If THIS has been rough...wait 'til this baby seal floats into the filthy shark-infested waters of the leading Indycar fan forum. I'm not doing it....

[bill gillespie]

Uh, $ 120 K

[Phil Creighton]

It makes a difference because SCCA Pro already has partners that are in the junior open wheel buisniess and pay sanction fees and get basically nothing in return for it. Honda backs the F1600 series and the F2000 series averages 30+ cars but instead of promoting its already successful clients, Pro chooses to sanction a direct competitor. We already are going head to head for clients with the Mazda to Indy series as there are only 'X' number of drivers with funding available. The days of free flowing tobacco and other corporate partners is long gone. You have to fight for every penny. So SCCA Pro promptly dilutes it further by sanctioning a direct competitor to its existing partners.
.

Kevin
I think you have to understand that SCCA Pro Racing's business model as of about 2-3 years ago is to be a service operation. Every series Pro sanctions is now run by someone else and is able to pick from a menu of services available to them from marketing, tech, workers, licensing and a damn good insurance policy. VW has had us sanction events and series before and have been a valuable partner over the years for both Club and Pro - it was natural for them to bring this new series to SCCA Pro.

As far as F1600/F2000 it has everything to do with being a partner with any series that requires our services. With my Formula Car guy hat on I agree its going to be tough to find a space for this new series with the lack of funded drivers at this level - VW thinks it can, probably at the expense of Star Mazda I would think. With my SCCA Pro Board hat on, this is business and no reflection on any other series we sanction. The 'Rand' series chose to do all of their own promotion in house so its not fair to say that the SCCA should be doing it because we provide the sanction and insurance. We'd love to do more for them but that's a business decision on their part too.

From what I saw at the MSX/Convention the car will be very nice with all the whizzy stuff - 6 speed, paddles, data,FIA spec tub for $120,000 complete. BTW The car on display was a Lola based mockup. Where it will fit in at Pro events will depend on VW's budget - like the TDI cup. Will it affect the Rand series - I doubt it. I think that the customer base is more likely to come from the Mazda Road to Indy potential drivers as this will be squarely in their budget range.

And to Mr Kehoe - actually the lunacy happened before the move to Kansas. Classes have come and gone with the ebbs and flow of time and progress and corporate involvement - what happened to Can Am, F5000 or Super Vee is no longer relevant other than it had the SCCA name on it back then. Look at the changes in Sports Car racing with IMSA, USRRC, ALMS, GrandAm and back to IMSA with all the resulting car changes. Over the past few years we have turned the Pro side into a reasonably profitable asset since we realized that we are not that good at promoting series but we are pretty good at running them. As the Pro president announced at the Convention they were the only part of SCCA to make a profit on operations last year and put over $150,000.00 back into the SCCA coffers after loan repayments. Unfortunately, as in the case of the MX5 cup at the sprints, paths cross - (a Chicago region decision based on budget, the track time was paid for)

Like I said above, I'm not sure whether there is space for this series to flourish without cannibalizing something but don't keep laying everything at the SCCA's door, it would have happened with or without us. I know they are an easy target from behind a keyboard but we keep trying to make it better.
Phil Creighton
ex Area 12 Director
SCCA Pro Board Member.

[PRS56]

While I tend to agree that tieing in with this series is another SCCA boondoggle that does nothing but add a sanctioning fee to the clubs coffers, I might be more inclined to be positive if I thought there was going to be an actual TV package in place.
There was a time when Speed Vision/Channel existed and you could actually see an Atlantic race other open wheel series on a semi-regular basis.
I have no idea what kind of business model at this level of capitalization can afford to exist without something to offer to advertisers and perspective sponsors.
I know that TV opportunities are virtually non-existant at this point but creative minds can come up with something.
Here's something tongue in cheek! How about SCCA sells the series to MTV for airing live and you populate the serious racers with a few "heartthrobs" like Justin Bieber. He has the money and has shown a proclivity for going fast. Just look at his recent Florida adventure.

[Fred Michael]

All of the negative posts point out valid thoughts and concerns, BUT what about the car ? Afaik, there aren't any North American manufacturers stepping up to the plate with a modern, safe, carbon tubbed, wheel tethered, extractible seat, formula car.

The stock VW GTI is a tad over 200 hp, and the 2015 Golf R rings the bell at 290 hp, so this engine should be very long lived.

I believe it will need to up the boost to the 250-280 hp range to be a true ladder, but that's just me. The price point will probably determine the initial success/ failure question, but they will need a Rand clone to succeed for long......let's wait and see a bit.

Flame away,
Bill

Pro Mazda has all of that except the extraction seat and it will fit if you want one.

[stonebridge20]

Here's something tongue in cheek! How about SCCA sells the series to MTV for airing live and you populate the serious racers with a few "heartthrobs" like Justin Bieber. He has the money and has shown a proclivity for going fast. Just look at his recent Florida adventure.

But do you want to be on track with someone that's stoned all the time?

[Steve Demeter]

There is a reason Canada sent him South......

Seriously,

Ggiven the business model that Phil explained, it makes perfect snese to me that SCCA Pro sanction this series.

It will mean more $ to the club as a whole.

And who will it pirate from existing SCCA Pro sanctioned series? Given the up front cost alone IMHO no one.

[Jnovak]

I haven't scratched that check to SCCA in 20 years...and I am generally not a fan of much the SCCA does. However, I don't see what the big deal is to the club racer.

Daryl, it simply dilutes the pool of drivers for club racing. open wheel gets little or no attention in club racing as is. if our numbers keep getting smaller then there will not be any open wheel club racing. (perhaps this is the goal) If this is what you want then commend the club for creating another $150,000+ spec race car. The only people making any money off of these types of deals are the promoters and the teams that get the pay drivers. What do you think it will cost to run this car for a pro season?

Right now the lower end of the costs to run USF2000 is over $300,000. This is essentially for a Van Diemen F2000 car with a Mazda motor. What a deal.

if the SCCA is serious about increasing membership in the open wheel ranks then what we need is a low cost open wheel class that is fast enough to get the young guys who cannot spend $300K for a season.

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl, it simply dilutes the pool of drivers for club racing.

Strictly speaking, yes. But I'd be willing to bet no more than 2 active SCCA Club open wheel racers end up there next season. So how much does it really dilute the pool?

if the SCCA is serious about increasing membership in the open wheel ranks then what we need is a low cost open wheel class that is fast enough to get the young guys who cannot spend $300K for a season.

Agree 100%...and kart---->F600------>to FB is a logical and affordable progression to that young guy/gal looking for lots of bang for the buck that doesn't have $300K. I think the F600 car could be a little faster to fill the niche between the 2 but, baby steps.

[Steve Bamford]

You already have a less expensive feeder series, F1600 Championship Series has graduated lots of up & coming drivers who head off to the next level. Eidson, Newey, Grist, Gooden, Telitz, to name a few have come from the Rand 1600 Series & made the jump to USF & some onto Pro Mazda on their march up the ladder.

F1600 is an affordable place to run compared to the next levels as you jump hundreds of thousands moving up from here. Also track time available during these events is much greater from what I have seen compared to the higher profile events where you end up cleaning the track for the big boys. Dollar per lap is much, much better with the F1600 group.

Not everyone wants to start here so there are other options but at this time this is the best affordable offering that has any connection to the SCCA that I can see.

The USF series is much more expensive but is a higher profile series with a big prize at the end of the year for the winner. With the series tied so closely to Indy Car it seems to be the logical next step.

[Steve Bamford]

Strictly speaking, yes. But I'd be willing to bet no more than 2 active SCCA Club open wheel racers end up there next season. So how much does it really dilute the pool?



Agree 100%...and kart---->F600------>to FB is a logical and affordable progression to that young guy/gal looking for lots of bang for the buck that doesn't have $300K. I think the F600 car could be a little faster to fill the niche between the 2 but, baby steps.

Sorry guys, racing in Club events with mixed car racing against mainly 50 year old plus guys isn't going to appeal to a kid coming out of karting. They need to be racing against other teenagers who's Daddy's are paying the way.

[mousecatcher]

If they wanted safety and carbon fiber tub cars.
What is wrong with Pro Mazda series.
It has been around for 10 years and are fairly cost competitive and quick cars for
pro level formula cars.

Being 10 years old, the tubs don't meet modern safety standards. Very cost competitive though, ignoring the fact that the powertrain is obsolete. Just add paddle shifters and you have a winner, IMHO. Of course that's looking it from a driver's POV. Entirely different from the manufacturer/sponsor/series POV.

[Daryl DeArman]

Sorry guys, racing in Club events with mixed car racing against mainly 50 year old plus guys isn't going to appeal to a kid coming out of karting. They need to be racing against other teenagers who's Daddy's are paying the way.

Well 100's of little Johnny's need to understand that they aren't going to be the next Ayrton and even if Daddy had enough money to fund a year of FGTI or whatever, what happens after that? Rather than take up sailing, golf or some other pursuit we need them to not hang that helmet up...and if they are going to be racing on their own dime at 23 years old...what appealing SCCA Club options do they have with a disposable income of 10-20K/year?

[Jnovak]

Well 100's of little Johnny's need to understand that they aren't going to be the next Ayrton and even if Daddy had enough money to fund a year of FGTI or whatever, what happens after that? Rather than take up sailing, golf or some other pursuit we need them to not hang that helmet up...and if they are going to be racing on their own dime at 23 years old...what appealing SCCA Club options do they have with a disposable income of 10-20K/year?

what is needed is a VERY fast and REALLY low cost class. Stay tuned.

[butch deer]

Grab your wallet and have at it. Just don't try to make the cars club racing eligible 3 years from now when they no longer have the latest wizzz bangs.

[Daryl DeArman]

what is needed is a VERY fast and REALLY low cost class. Stay tuned.

Consider myself tuned. No restrictors or competition adjustments please...

[Steve Bamford]

Well 100's of little Johnny's need to understand that they aren't going to be the next Ayrton and even if Daddy had enough money to fund a year of FGTI or whatever, what happens after that? Rather than take up sailing, golf or some other pursuit we need them to not hang that helmet up...and if they are going to be racing on their own dime at 23 years old...what appealing SCCA Club options do they have with a disposable income of 10-20K/year?

Unfortunately I don't see many kids make the transition from arrive & drive programs funded by their parents to racing in the SCCA Club when their parents stop paying. The odd Twenty somethings you see in the Club are usually from a racing family that their parents own a car & it becomes a father son weekend. These are different kids usually then the ones we are talking about moving up the ladder in the other series you are discussing.

Not very many twenty somethings have the disposable income to run SCCA Club events & if they did run at higher levels they would likely become frustrated with the offerings of mixed class racing & lack of competition compared to what they had in the past. That is not taking a shot at Club racing at all, it is simply the reality of differences between the series competition level. Sure there is a few fast drivers to race against but not 10-15 or more extremely fast drivers that they are used to running against. Take a look at any of the qualifying times of any of the USF2000 events & see how close they all are compared to any Major/National qualifying times.

[Wren]

I agree with pretty much everyone else here that I can't see how there is room in US open wheel for this series. I expect that it won't last far beyond a few years. But, I don't agree with the criticism for SCCA Pro. They are a for profit entity. My experience with the SCCA Pro people involved with the F1000 championship series people was that they were very, very good at what they did. I just hope they get their money up front this time.

On the cars, my understanding was that any composite monocoque for club racing needed to be crash tested. Will these tubs be crash tested as well?

[John LaRue]

Yes, Crawford announced that they will be FIA certified and crash tested.

[Daryl DeArman]

Not very many twenty somethings have the disposable income to run SCCA Club events & if they did run at higher levels they would likely become frustrated with the offerings of mixed class racing & lack of competition compared to what they had in the past. That is not taking a shot at Club racing at all, it is simply the reality of differences between the series competition level. Sure there is a few fast drivers to race against but not 10-15 or more extremely fast drivers that they are used to running against.

Agree 100% and exactly my personal experience. I have grown bored rather quickly with every class I've raced in after karts due to the lack of competition at a spending level I could justify.

[allof6]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Formu...98281660322794

[Kazis31]

Add.
Carbon tub car with higher price and lower horsepower than pro mazda.
Looks very similar to formula 4.
Built to FIA F3 specs............
What was wrong with bringing actual formula F3 to US?
Better aero,more horse power and cars already exist.
What is wrong with Formula renault 2.0 with also better aero and more horsepower?

With most of formula feeder classes in state scrambling for car count ,this seems
like another class to dilute numbers of existing classes and confuse well funded young drivers.
And to support US series what is wrong with USF2000?
Why not bring more drivers to F2000or FE or Pro Mazda?

Good deal for HRD .. good job kicking Volkswagen to curb.

P.S.
I know this may stair up the brothers , but i had to say something.

[R. Pare]

"What was wrong with bringing actual formula F3 to US?"

This is another one-cash-register-racing program, so why wouldn't they try to maximise their income?

The Club should stop sanctioning programs that are not originally part of the Club.

[Peter Olivola]

If SCCA Pro hadn't sanctioned it, someone else would have. No different than the east coast F1600/F2000/Fatl program.

If someone wants to invest in a racing program and pay Pro for a sanction it's kind of free money to Pro. Pro provides a set of guidelines that the series must meet to get the benefit of being sanctioned by an ACCUS member club, insurance, etc., but beyond that, unless the series is paying for extra services there's no overhead to Pro. Series administration is handled by the series (again, unless the contract includes Pro taking that on, but most series at this level will want to minimize outside expense.)

The Club should stop sanctioning programs that are not originally part of the Club.

[Dennis Valet]

Well I can understand why Honda wants junior formula cars. Probably irks them a little bit that the formula car feeder series to the IRL is called the "Mazda" road to indy..

[dalz]

What was wrong with bringing actual formula F3 to US?

It was done, or proposed, a good decade ago, and it flopped like a ton of excrement, like this will.

IRL

Once again, the "IRL" moniker is a good half-decade into its forever dirt nap. Its name is the Verizon Indycar series, or "Indycar", just like the good ol' days now.

[Maciej]

I'd love to buy one...

...I just don't have $121k to spare...

[GAR]

Add.
Carbon tub car with higher price and lower horsepower than pro mazda.
Looks very similar to formula 4.
Built to FIA F3 specs............
What was wrong with bringing actual formula F3 to US?
Better aero,more horse power and cars already exist.
What is wrong with Formula renault 2.0 with also better aero and more horsepower?
.

This car has same horsepower as pro mazda and blows that car out of the water when it comes to torque, sadly the rotary makes basically 0 torque. Plus this car weighs

Formula Renault 2.0 has much less downforce and much less power with it only having about 130-150HP.

For actual F3 cars to be brought in it would be about the same price range to bring foreign and not American cars. I do not know how the engine would or would not fit in a F3 car as well. F3 cars also only have about 195HP. But F3 cars are the same in the aero department since both have tunnels on them. So F3 cars have less horsepower and same aero.

The car will be at VIR this Friday for Grassroot Motorsports Magazine Ultimate Track Car Challenge so it will be much easier for people to compare the times to known cars such as Pro Mazda, Atlantic, etc. But also keep in mind it will be the first real day the car is on track. The kershaw test was literally just a shake down/system check test.

I do not have an affiliation with the series at the moment, but have looked into it pretty deeply and spoke with series owners a good bit which is how I know the information that I do.

Fun Fact about the series: With the way they arranging everything in terms of tire rules, tire cost, entry fee cost etc operating cost to run are going to be +/- a few dollars to run in F2000 Championship Series or F1600 Championship Series