Minimum cost of Formula Ford or Formula Vee car?

[grapefarmeral]

Go to Sracing for sale ads ...Jim Raineys P-2 is for sale with lots of spares for $8000... not a bad starter car...

[njg005]

Aspetuck
Great question in which everyone will have a varying opinion. I bought FV with a trailer for $5000. Although it needed some sorting over the first winter (around $1000 worth of upgrades) I was able to get on track with an "noncompetitive car." I still have the car and have turned that noncompetitive FV into a relatively competitive car without breaking the bank. Although my car may never be competitive at the Majors level, it suits me just fine for our tracks in the Northeast and you may find, with the right research, your noncompetitive FV will fair better than expected. Although I haven't been directly involved with FF, many noncompetitive FF will remain noncompetitive no matter how they are engineered. FF allows many more advances in technology, which only adds expense. That being said, I know the northeast has plenty of good vintage FF racing.

Side note: As a group yesterday (NEFV), we took a pole as to how many sets of tires a competitor uses in a season. 2/3-3/4 of those poled only buy one set. The other 25% buy 2 sets. Tires are expensive, but with some proper management, you won't need multiple sets during the year to accomplish what I think you are trying to achieve.

Take a look at the website contact page if you have any other questions about FV. You are in a great geographical area to start with a ton of helpful people. http://www.nefv.org/North_East_Formu.../Contacts.html

Nick

[jpetillo]

I'm glad no one quoted me some of the prices I've seen here for FV, or else it would have scared me away!

Yes, if we're taking about the car only, Nick's "noncompetitive" car took first place in New England Region this year (sorry Nick). That being said, I won New England Region the year before with what this thread suggests would be a noncompetitive car. I still run the same shocks and engine. It's just been adjusted, maintained, and repaired along the way.

The best way to gauge what car to buy when you choose a class is to drag one of us with you to see the car. Mark Filip mentioned the NEFV.com site. They have contacts there for your region that would be more than helpful. Most of the cars for sale are known entities, so it should be easy to find what with a history, as Greg Suggested. Don't buy one by yourself!

New England Region SCCA and the North East Formulae Vee guys (nefv.org) plan to be at Race-A-Rama (www.fmautoshow.com) on March 1 & 2 in Springfield, MA. You would get to meet and see who races FV in the area and see an FV or two.

John

[Ralph Z.]

Yes, I know the question was about minimum "price" to buy a low end car. However, I agree with problemchild. In looking out for the best interest of the original poster, one must absolutely consider the total cost of the car assuming the owner actually wants to get seat time.

I bought a vintage FF last year at a low price. Here is what I have spent to make it reliable...

$4000 engine rebuild
$2200 new Penske singles
$375 machine rear uprights and new bearings
$350 safety harness
$1100 new set of tires
$150 test and tune session
$450 transponder
$75 silicone radiator hoses
$250 bead seat
$60 oil change and filter
and countless hours fixing a bump steer problem, installing new shocks, rear end dis-assembly, etc.

Geez, this scares me when I look at it. But, the car will be in excellent condition when finished.

Any new racer needs to go in with eyes wide open. That being said, there are some great deals out there for Club Fords in the $10k - $12k range that will need very little to hit the track. I bought a 94 Van Diemen several years ago in this price range and it was basically track ready. We had a lot of fun with that car.

[provamo]

Thinking about getting into one or the other. What would be least I could reasonably expect to pay for a running, noncompetitive formula ford or Formula vee?

$7.5k and $4.0k respectively

[butch deer]

50 plus years of experience with these classes tells me that a ff will generally cost 2 to 4 times as much as a fv for comparable performance. You can match National Champ vs National Champ or 5th place regional guy vs 5th place regional guy and the results will be the same. (yes there will always be some exception but a ford will cost more than a vee 99% of the time)
Race what you can afford to run reliably and you will be much happier.

[problemchild]

50 plus years of experience with these classes tells me that a ff will generally cost 2 to 4 times as much as a fv for comparable performance. You can match National Champ vs National Champ or 5th place regional guy vs 5th place regional guy and the results will be the same. (yes there will always be some exception but a ford will cost more than a vee 99% of the time)
Race what you can afford to run reliably and you will be much happier.

That's completely not true today at the regional level where so many of the operational expenses are common and are so much more of the overall cost than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Front beam assemblies on FVs now have extensive fabrication and machining while the costs of rod ends and A-arms on CF and tweener FFs have barely changed. Taking off a front corner on a CF is probably cheaper.

[Roux]

For those who don't know, Problemchild AKA Greg Rice has extensive recent experience with both FV and FF so I put a lot of value in his assessment.

I am partial to CF, FF myself since that is where I started while having a huge admiration for the driving ability of the FV community in general

Original Poster aspetuck, I am in CT on the west side of the state and will gladly show you my cars and share my experience.

[joefuhring]

1st are you planning on racing SCCA or Vintage?

Since I have raced both I can tell you that FV Vintage is about as cheap as you can go racing. The cars are rather simple and they can be had for a lot less money than I Formula Ford. In fact I have two vintage FV's for sale with Fresh everything for less than $5K for each.

Vintage formula Ford will cost you at least twice as much and the parts are at least twice as much.

[BLS]

Front beam assemblies on FVs now have extensive fabrication and machining...

Greg, just in case I missed something, what are those?

Thanks,
Barry

[problemchild]

Greg, just in case I missed something, what are those?

Thanks,
Barry

There are all kinds of custom bushings, needle bearings, machined spacers, ride height adjusters, custom spindles, etc. I don't need to go into specifics but there is a whole lot of work that goes into a modern FV beam assembly. I won't argue with you if you tell me a regional level CF costs 20-25% more to operate than a similar level FV, but 2x or 4X is just not accurate. Travel, hotel, entry fees, driver equip, HNR are all the same. Brake pads are now similar, as are the price of brake drums and rotors. CF racers can only buy gears from Carl Haas so that is one difference. The improvement in kent engine parts mean that CF engine life is considerably extended, although rebuilds cost more.

Both FV and CF would be good choices for a newbie from CT. IMO, FV is now comparable in cost to CF, when at one time, there was a huge difference.

[B Farnham]

There are all kinds of custom bushings, needle bearings, machined spacers, ride height adjusters, custom spindles, etc. I don't need to go into specifics but there is a whole lot of work that goes into a modern FV beam assembly.

We are talking about a beginner regional driver here not someone trying to win the runoffs. You don't need any of those beam mods to get on the track....

[Amon]

Greg,

How is a regional Fv comparable with a CF when the FV can be purchased for around $5k
less than a similar competitive CF, which allows extra money for drivers suit, open wheel
trailer, tools, helmet and other racing equipment. A $5k Vee probably won't win any races
but at least he's out on the track and beginners usually don't win immediately anyhow. As
his driving skills improve so will his car if he so chooses! There's a car on Apex right now for
around $5500.00 that's race ready with a good shock package etc., so they do exist.

Mark

88' Citation 002'
02' Citation 002'

[BLS]

Greg, I'm not entering the FV Vs CF discussion as I am not qualified. I just want to make sure I've not missed anything on the FV front beam. Sorry if it sounded like I was questioning your expertise. I'm not.

Thanks,
Barry

[Daryl DeArman]

A bit of clarification regarding my stance on this issue.

While I do agree there are "non-competitive, running FV's and FF's" out there that can be had on the cheap...I was trying to dissuade the OP from going that route.

I'd try to persuade the OP to buy something with a good quality, low-time engine. Something that presents well and has been well cared for. In the mid to long term he will be better off (both psychologically and financially). I believe to get all that, you are looking $6-9K range for a FV.

As to folks believing competitive cars can be had for that price...it depends on how you define competitive. My Vintage D13 was both bought and sold in that range. It has championships before, during and after my ownership. I'd consider that car competitive in the vintage circles that allow D13s. At an SCCA event? Nope....not even close.

[njg005]

Aspetuck
I am not sure where you live in CT, but Northeast Formula Vee (in conjunction with NER/SCCA) will man a booth this weekend (March 1 and 2) at the Frank Maratta Auto and Race-A-Rama Show in Springfield, MA-http://www.fmautoshow.com. If you are able to attend, stop by the booth and introduce yourself. We would love to meet you!

[B Farnham]

As to folks believing competitive cars can be had for that price...it depends on how you define competitive. My Vintage D13 was both bought and sold in that range. It has championships before, during and after my ownership. I'd consider that car competitive in the vintage circles that allow D13s. At an SCCA event? Nope....not even close.

There's a red d13 that runs in the northeast that has won some races, and Greg Davis has run up front in his d13 at Nelson Ledges. At the regional level just about any car can win with a good motor and a good driver....

[Daryl DeArman]

At the regional level just about any car can win with a good motor and a good driver....

Agreed. I was thinking Majors/Run-Offs level when I was talking about competitive at an SCCA event eventhough that's not what I said....and I am usually so literal.

[rave motorsports]

What I tell my prospective FST drivers is the following and if your realistic it won't be far off.
I can put them in a competitive FST for $10,000. I can back it up if anyone would like to purchase the Caracal I am converting now $10,000 when it's done come pick it up with zero time motor. That's a small part of your first season. Then you have the following:
$3,000 in personal protection & license with physical, drivers school
$3,000 in making our 12 race 6 track schedule
From then on just figure a minimum of $5,000 a race year up dating equipment attending our regional series and tires (only one set a year in FST).
That's been my experience and as affordable as I've seen.

[jpetillo]

That's good information about the total cost of getting started. Those prices are reasonable, and a good guideline.

The buy in price for a regionally competitive FV is a few thousand lower, at least here in the NE, but perhaps not elsewhere. We had a show of hands a few weeks ago in the NE about how many sets of tires we use in a year, and everyone agreed that one set does the job. This year's 2013 regional FV series winner was one of the one-set-per-year guys. The 2012 winner did the same.

I saw njg005's post about the car show. Yes, anyone who is in the Springfield, MA area this weekend (Sat & Sun), the NEFV guys (http://www.nefv.org) will have a FV and a booth with the SCCA at the Race-A-Rama show... http://www.fmautoshow.com.

[marshall9]

FF definitely costs more, initially, and going on. Where are you going to be racing? I ask , because large fields give a greater value per dollar.

I can afford to buy an FC for less than a properly prepared FF out here in AZ. FC fields are normally 1-3. I choose FF because I am in fields of 4 to 5 times as large as that on average.

If a 5K difference is keeping you out, stay out. Any of our cars can be wadded up in any corner, anytime during the weekend.

I don't know what the difference between a "National/Majors" and a "Regional" Vee is, but have a little idea about it in FF. It depends on what series you are running. Our back markers, bought a car for 10K, and are on a run it until breaks, then maintain it, replace it mentality. Our front runners are on a linear, not exponential budget from there.

On our tracks, our mid-pack guys' time is within 2-3 seconds of the race winner per lap. I would say that Vees are 5-7 seconds slower than us per lap. More so, on a longer track. That being said, if you can drive a Vee fast, you can drive anything fast.
YMMV

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't know what the difference between a "National/Majors" and a "Regional" Vee is, but have a little idea about it in FF.

Similar to most any other class I'm sure. It's not about the title of the race so much as it is about who shows up/strength of competition. I imagine the upcoming regional at Laguna won't be your typical regional and will require a RunOffs podium worthy effort to win.

[protoform]

I sold My Protoform P-3 for 11k last summer I tossed in an open trailer and enough spares for 3 years .It also came with raines in good shape a brand new set of sticker tires and 3 usable sets all mounted short box. long box extra cases extra backing plates extra body parts new 5 year belts a new fuel cell I can go on. Oh yea this was Jim Kearney's car usually in the top 10 at the runnoffs and I know he had a few top 5's I had 2 engines one went with the car. The other I found out ended up in Roger Siebinelar car as a qualifying engine. at last years runnoffs. So no junk. It also took me over 6 months to sell the car. There are good cars out there. if you have a little cash you can get a good car The guy that posted the question is from Conn. Here in the NE we have a lot of FV's and a great bunch of guys running them. They will all lend you anything you need to get started. Go to NEFV.Org Mark Flip runs the site Pete Cheney My business # is 508 947-2510 if you want to talk a little more in depth what you plan to do.