Perhaps this has been discussed before but what are peoples thoughts on P2 engine regs in FC? Just a hypothetical discussion to open up FC/Zetec cars to other 2ltr 4cly motors.
FC Future Development.
Perhaps this has been discussed before but what are peoples thoughts on P2 engine regs in FC? Just a hypothetical discussion to open up FC/Zetec cars to other 2ltr 4cly motors.
FC Engines
My feelings,
No other engine options, you can never adjust one from the other to race exactly equal, someone looses out.
IIRC, this was discussed a year or 2 ago regarding bringing the Mazda engine into FC. And, again, IIRC, most echoed Keith's sentiments.
Dave Weitzenhof
One major thing has made the pro series successful for 8 years is that it has one engine, and it is sealed.
No constant bickering about engine equity tables.
No engine of the season.
I see the next evolution something the kids would like. Maybe a Fit engine with small turbo making 165, 6 speed sequential with paddles.
If you have an engine war, pit the Honda Fit turbo against the Ford Ecotech.
Did you read Randy Pobst in Sportscar this month? H patterns are antique. Even an old-timer like him realizes it.
Personally I think we should be looking full electric. My only concern with electric today
is that even though the package would be as small as current, the mass would be higher, thusly momentum in crashes creates a whole new set of parameters to meet.
I guess what was driving my curiosity was the cost of a Zetec motor seems very high for what is in essence a stock motor (excluding the intake system).
Have you priced a 150 hp outboard motor recently?
2013 Mercury 150 hp new in box = $11,500. MSRP = $13,000
Just saying... it costs real money to buy 150hp in almost any form.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 01.30.14 at 5:43 PM.
Now there's a thought. No need for a gearbox then! Just use the prop.
Hey Froggy,You didn't trade the pollywog on a BOAT did you.Not A Sermon Just A Thought
Tim MinorFc88
Tim Minor
Tim,
I already owned 9 boats before I sold Pollywog.
I have not bought another. But one needs maintenance (or sinking).
I'm letting Mark Defer discover the joys of boat ownership.
Motorcycle engines
Or get Honda to supply a sealed CBR1000 engine with gearbox at ~165 hp. Brand new couldn't cost more than $6k, could it? Makes almost that much horsepower stock, revs to 13,000 rpm, has a six-speed sequential already.
(ducking and running)
Frog,,
Electric WTF Dementia setting in? Next thing you know you'll be driving a Volt.
Stop Nathan, That would make to much sense then there would be no way for the engine builders to make there money and drive that cost up to 18k. Just doesn't seem feasible.Originally Posted by nulrich
Morgan,
You set the bar so high when you wheeled into Cleveland in 2007 in that red HSR.
That was Watkins Glenn with the 8 hour overnite from Detroit. A tribute to the car, the only one they would rent one way they wanted rid of it so bad.
When the Zetec was introduced to FC, one could buy a crate motor for about $600. No longer. That was one of the attractions of that motor, but not the only one. One of the concepts at the time and still valid today is the use of a readily available, cheap, modern crate motor for these cars. When the Zetec timed out, the idea was to replace it with the next cheap 2ltr crate motor. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
The MZR (might) meet this criteria, so might a FIT, although its not a 2 ltr motor. I have been told by Steve Knapp that the Zetec and the MZR can be made exactly equal through mapping, as can any pair of contemporary similar sized, fuel injected motors.
Given all the noise already going on, how on earth is anyone going to agree to anything new anyway
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
So if people would complain about engine parity why will this not be an issue in P2? Or maybe it will be. How does a largely stock Zetec cost $15k+?
engines
My feelings,
No other engine options, you can never adjust one from the other to race exactly equal, someone looses out.
__________________
Keith
Averill Racing Stuff, Inc.
I think I said that when the Honda was being introduced.
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
They'd like it, but couldn't afford it, unless they have a sugar-daddy, and those kids are on "the road to Indy".
Dave Weitzenhof
This is my thought exactly how does a junker Zetec turn into 15k? Please fill in the blanks.
Motor 1k
ECU ?
Sensors for ECU if not standard ?
Dry Sump ?
Wiring Harness ?
ECU= $1200?
engine loom= $1000
fuel pressure sensor, oil pressure sensor= $125 ea
air temp sensor, water temp sender= $100 ea
throttle position sensor, crank trigger, belts, pullys, Pan, oil pump, intake manifold, exhaust system, air filter, air intake,
I probably missed something...once you buy all this once, then the crate motor is relatively cheap.
it adds up pretty quick.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Ford Focus Midget engine
Here is what FC needs
http://www.focusmidgetresource.com/B...d_Engines.html
Roush-Yates will build a similar Duratec for about the same deal.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
You could always call and ask someone..... it was $11,500 in the year 2000
Looks good to me!
They can do it at that price simply because of the volume they can sell to the midget guys - there are thousands odf them out there. The number of FCs? Not so many in comparison, unfortunately.
Then just use a detuned version then for $6994.99
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Why not use this motor? Presumably its not just restricted to the midget guys? Perhaps its state of tune is not really suitable for road racing?
That specific engine is no longer in production. My understanding is that they are considering the Duratec to replace the Zetec.
The Zetec has bone stock parts with revised camshaft timing to give it the 180 hp. Also it is not restricted.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Just because!
Its not that simple. I doubt it would fit in one of our cars the way its configured in the picture. There was a lot of subtle design work done to the motor package to get it to properly fit in a VD etc.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Maybe replaced with this? Price went up to $8k. (half)
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=22999
That's a neat package there. If you take that and add these it would be closer to what we offer.
VD motor mounts $500
Oil pan for a zetec VD $700
Alternator kit $500
Clutch $450
Dry Sump pump kit $1200
then build it to current rules\dyno $2500
I know FB has it's issues but honestly reading this make me understand why I like FB. Sounds like where FC would like to go (in terms of engine cost)
Multiple cheap fast engines packages, sequential gearboxes, 13k revs (just bought 3 very low mile ZX10's for $9k). Everyday new cars are popping up. 100 +/- today and I'd say 300 within 5 years. Best bang for the buck (IMO)
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
FC Future Development.
Minus the number of broken FB engines. I want a few years with no fear of engine failure.
Plus, you don't need to deal with that whole H pattern thing
Sorry JP, couldn't resist...
Broken Engines in FB is pretty much over with. Water and oil cooling were the main causes of engine failures and those issues have been resolved for a few years. The only reason engines blow now are because of installation issues or over revving an expired engine. A properly installed and maintained engine should last at least one season. Even if you had to refresh an engine once a year its worth it. If you ever drove an FB you'd know there isn't any comparison, it's like trying to compare a Porsche to a VW Bug
exactly. what is it 1950?Plus, you don't need to deal with that whole H pattern thing
Sorry JP, couldn't resist...
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
It is not fair when people start saying their class is "better" than others. Some people would much rather race their VW against 40+ well-prepared and well-driven other VWs than race their Porsche against 7 other Porsches of various prep and driver skill. Other people would pick the Porshce with out any doubt.
Many FB drivers seem to buy their engines three at a time. The FC drivers tend to buy one engine and use it for many years. With 40 cars at a Pro race, there may be only one or two teams that actually carry a spare. Comparing purchase prices of engines between the two classes is apples and oranges in extreme.
To each his own
When 40+ FC cars show up to race at the Glen ...... not many are wishing they were in a "better" class. It would be my guesstimate that a serious top-level FC would spend around 5-8% of their operating budget on engine upkeep.
I think the current spec cars are a pretty good package. As Reid and others have noted, the creep in costs has just taken it beyond the financial realm of too many people. Most of the proposed changes, and the whole hybrid car concept, will involve a significant increase in costs to a large number of people. It is amusing that people keep saying the "vintage" cars keep beating the new cars. From where I stand, the best designed and most-developed cars are beating the so-called newer cars. That would indicate to me, that the current rules package is good, but also has provided needed stability.
Last edited by problemchild; 01.31.14 at 10:15 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
The Zetec engine has been a very reliable package, but I think the point Bob was making earlier is there just aren't any more $600-800 core engines available. Ford has stopped supplying them and it's becoming more and more expensive to find a new Zetec engine (Erik will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by what I hear from my customers). The idea of an COTS (cheap off the shelf) solution like the midget engines or a restricted 1000 cc motorcycle engine is enticing but likely not realistic. We do need to find a replacement.
Are you talking about the proposed rules clarification for FF/FC or what we've been discussing in this thread? If the rules clarification, why do you think it would increase costs for anyone? I'm honestly curious. New Citation, Van Diemen and Radon chassis are all the about the same cost, so where would the additional cost come from?Most of the proposed changes, and the whole hybrid car concept, will involve a significant increase in costs to a large number of people.
The best teams and drivers are at the front of the grid no matter whether they are driving a Citation, a Van Diemen, or a Radon. The Citation, although it has been around for a while, has changed quite significantly over the last couple of years and I would call Tim's car a "newer" car in most respects. By no means is it a "vintage" car.It is amusing that people keep saying the "vintage" cars keep beating the new cars. From where I stand, the best designed and most-developed cars are beating the so-called newer cars.
That stability has nothing to do with the 2013 Club rules. We have parity in F2000 using the Pro series rules, which are very similar to the 2012 Club rules. No car has (yet) been developed exploiting the 2013 Club rules, which is a good thing.That would indicate to me, that the current rules package is good, but also stable.
Nathan
As far as I know we have enough crate engines and parts to last another 10 years or so with the Zetec. A replacement is not needed right now but we should keep our eyes open for a proper package down the line for sure. The just is not a 2.0l engine in production that meets the needs they all make to much HP or its to much $$.
FC Motor
And Roland, you were correct !
The thing about any new automotive based (possibly any) engine is, they were never designed to be rebuilt. So when they run out of production or junk yard examples, they done.
This is why in F/Ford and F/C, I have always prefered the old Ford engines, particularly with the increased service life changes like the forged pistons, lighter flywheel, etc.
Also why various Vintage Racing Associations have seen an increase in F/Ford, S-2000 and even F/C cars plus are loaded with race cars driven by powerplants that can be serviced over and over again.
A stable powerplant offers a stability which amateur racers like.
[QUOTE=kea;420819]And Roland, you were correct !
The thing about any new automotive based (possibly any) engine is, they were never designed to be rebuilt. So when they run out of production or junk yard examples, they done.
Maybe they were not designed for that Keith but its really a non issue as it can be rebuilt as well as the older engines. The cracked rods are tricky but if you know how to handle it there is not an issue.
i put in my vote for a new gear box and a diesel
http://jalopnik.com/nissans-new-le-m...ium=socialflow
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.
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