New FV motor?

[SamF]

Bill I am in if we can use the rocket-turbine engine you found. I am all about turbine engines!i if we can't get the one you found we can alway use a Rolls-Royce C250... But that would be for FST only.

Here are three engine ideas that fit this thread perfectly.

[BLS]

I think the idea was a modern alternative

I think this is a fantasy thread. Might want to look at that third pic a bit closer...

[Amon]

Since we're talking about thinking outside the box, anyone with experience in a miniature
nuclear reactor that's adaptable???

[BLS]

miniature nuclear reactor

Water cooling is a negative...

[Amon]

Would be a problem if the core got too hot and the entire car had a meltdown..

[Tiago Santos]

Then again, I hear the Japanese will let you take away whatever reactor fuel you can carry! Might even pay you for it..

[SamF]

Since we're talking about thinking outside the box, anyone with experience in a miniature
nuclear reactor that's adaptable???

We would need to add a steam turbine to convert the heat to motion. We could then try to compromise on a combined steam powered class.

[Bill Bonow]

How's this to fit our "modern" FV? Click on the thumbnail to make it run!

[Tiago Santos]

But is all this just idle bench racing or is anyone serious about the topic?

Like all good ideas, it'll start as idle bench racing until someone suggests a motor that no one else can refuse

Here's me being serious for a minute - do I love the 1200 motors? Meh.. I have an emotional attachment to them, I guess, but I've also blown enough of them to not particularly like them. Mostly my fault on the damaged motors, but they're fairly fragile little things.

If there was a modern, cheap, widely available, bulletproof motor that provided about the same power or a little bit more than the 1200, small enough to fit in our cars and easy to adapt to the VW transaxle, I'd do it tomorrow. I don't think that exists...

[Amon]

Tiago,

I went from 2010 through 2013 (4 seasons) on my Autowerks motor without any problems. (I sure hope this post doesn't jinx me in the future? )

88' Citation 002'
02' Citation 001'

[Tiago Santos]

Tiago,

I went from 2010 through 2013 (4 seasons) on my Autowerks motor without any problems. (I sure hope this post doesn't jinx me in the future? )

88' Citation 002'
02' Citation 001'

Trust me, I've heard lots of stories like that It's true that these motors can last a while if the planets are aligned and you're not a clown with maintenance (which I am, apparently!). But I wish we had motors like the Fit or some of the Mazda engines that, by all accounts, last several years of hard racing as a general rule, not the exception It's not possible to make a 50 year old motor with 50% more HP and more than 50% higher revs than stock last for as long as a new, factory built, under-stressed motor. Which is why I don't have much interest in moving to the 1600 engine anymore - it's really just more of the same, if somewhat less stressed.

[Daryl DeArman]

Not sure if you're talking about the H-D or the 1600cc here

Ha, I can see how my big ol' low tech turd putting out less than 1HP per CI could apply to both; the H-D was the P.O.S. I was referring to.

[jhenn4716]

I think this is a fantasy thread. Might want to look at that third pic a bit closer...

Why does it have to be a "fantasy thread"? Why can't we have a serious discussion about anything?

You want to know the real thing the scares away the "young kids" from joining our ranks, its all the old men bickering about every little thing.

[Tiago Santos]

Why does it have to be a "fantasy thread"? Why can't we have a serious discussion about anything?

You want to know the real thing the scares away the "young kids" from joining our ranks, its all the old men bickering about every little thing.

I don't think he was belittling the thread by calling it a fantasy thread - it indeed started as a fantasy thread and I'm happy to keep it that way. I'm not opposed to a serious discussion about alternative engines, I just don't believe it'll a) lead to anything.. b) stay nice and positive for too long

This thread has remained remarkably benign given the sensitive topic

[BLS]

...its all the old men bickering about every little thing.

Wasn't attempting to ruffle any feathers even if I can be defined as old

I was under the impression this was not a serious thread, but like all threads the topic can switch at any time...

Any serious discussion about FV engines would start with the 1600. Every part is available new. With just a few tweeks, they are deadly reliable, capable of handling vastly more power than we would have. They bolt right in without mods on most cars. They are used by a countless number of cars in the offroad world. Most importantly, those crazies on the left coast will insure we have a steady supply of high performance parts for many more years. You are not stuck with 1600cc's either. The parts are available to increase bore or stroke to increase power without exotic, unreliable parts.

That is a serious contribution. You would be hard pressed to find a more suitable replacement.

[Chris Elwell]

You want to know the real thing the scares away the "young kids" from joining our ranks, its all the old men bickering about every little thing.

Exactly.


I like the Chevy Spark idea. Although if Mazda made something similar there would be a much better chance of it actually happening. Then we can call it FML (Formula Mazda Lite) which also stands for F**k My Life, which I think it would be hilarious to have a race car named after that.

[Matt King]

Ha, I can see how my big ol' low tech turd putting out less than 1HP per CI could apply to both; the H-D was the P.O.S. I was referring to.

You might think they are turds, but I can assure you the motorcycle market disagrees with you, to the tune of about 250,000 bikes sold per year.

[Daryl DeArman]

You might think they are turds, but I can assure you the motorcycle market disagrees with you, to the tune of about 250,000 bikes sold per year.

...and Old Milwaukee sells 5 million cases of beer a month, doesn't mean it's good beer

Besides H-D buyers don't care if they are turds or not---that's not why they buy them.

[jhenn4716]

Any serious discussion about FV engines would start with the 1600.

Why? Both the 1200 and 1600 will eventually share a common fate. Yes parts for the 1600 are more available then then 1200. Big deal.

This thread may have started as wishful thinking, but I say why not explore real alternatives. No different then the 500/600 class.

[Stan Clayton]

It's not possible to make a 50 year old motor with 50% more HP and more than 50% higher revs than stock last for as long as a new, factory built, under-stressed motor. Which is why I don't have much interest in moving to the 1600 engine anymore - it's really just more of the same, if somewhat less stressed.

Okay, fair enough. How about adopting the South African Formula Vee solution...an FF chassis with FV H-beam and transaxle mated to a water-cooled EFI VW Golf/Jetta engine?

[BLS]

Both the 1200 and 1600 will eventually share a common fate.

True, as will any engine you choose. In fact I would bet the 1600 derived ACVW in its aftermarket variety will outlive most of the currently available small engines.

I have no problem having a serious discussion about engines. I am interested in why anyone would want to switch to a different engine than the ACVW given the ease with which it could be adapted. There are classes already established with 4 cyl water cooled engines, MC engines of two sizes, spec engines, etc. If the VW engine bugs* the heck out of anyone I'm not sure why they don't just switch. If there wasn't an available parts supply then I could understand it. But there is absolutely no shortage of the 1600 derived parts nor will there be for at least 20 years. There are multiple suppliers that specialize in VW bug parts, unlike most of the rest of the industry. They are not going away.

Having an opinion is not bickering, old or not. I would like to hear the reasons why we should drop the air cooled engine and adapt another. You simply cannot make the case that it is because of a parts shortage.

*

[BLS]

Okay, fair enough. How about adopting the South African Formula Vee solution...an FF chassis with FV H-beam and transaxle mated to a water-cooled EFI VW Golf/Jetta engine?

Looks good! But, why not just go FF?

[jhenn4716]

True, as will any engine you choose. In fact I would bet the 1600 derived ACVW in its aftermarket variety will outlive most of the currently available small engines.

I have no problem having a serious discussion about engines. I am interested in why anyone would want to switch to a different engine than the ACVW given the ease with which it could be adapted. There are classes already established with 4 cyl water cooled engines, MC engines of two sizes, spec engines, etc. If the VW engine bugs* the heck out of anyone I'm not sure why they don't just switch. If there wasn't an available parts supply then I could understand it. But there is absolutely no shortage of the 1600 derived parts nor will there be for at least 20 years. There are multiple suppliers that specialize in VW bug parts, unlike most of the rest of the industry. They are not going away.

Having an opinion is not bickering, old or not. I would like to hear the reasons why we should drop the air cooled engine and adapt another. You simply cannot make the case that it is because of a parts shortage.

*

Yes every FST driver or advocate will tout the availability of the 1600 parts. That's great. But what is the cost of switching from the 1200 to the 1600? Where's Bonow when I need him. It's not cheap to switch, regardless of how much of the 1200 parts you sell, or might be able to sell. So you have a car that's maybe a little faster in certain situations, with parts that will be around for a little bit longer. I say big deal! There's no upside.

For the cost of a FV, plus money for an upgrade to FST ($7000), plus a bit more and a driver could just move up a class (FF). Where's the incentive for a new driver?

I think we could find an alternative engine option for less than $7000. Keep the rest of the FV package.

[BLS]

I think we could find an alternative engine option for less than $7000. Keep the rest of the FV package.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. I'm not pushing a move to FST. I thought you wanted a serious discussion on a replacement engine for the 1200. I happen to think the 1600 is the easiest, least expensive option. A 1600 can be built with high quality parts all day long for less than 5K if you go the restrictor route (like FST). The rest of the car can remain the traditional FV. I do not believe you will find a less expensive option but I would like to hear what you have. I am not pushing to replace the 1200. It may come to that someday, but this thread started as a "fantasy" engine thread with this replacement:
http://jalopnik.com/nissans-new-le-m...n-y-1509734976

Clearly a fantasy.

The originator of the thread had this comment a bit later:
"Before this gets toooo out of hand, please keep in mind the original post was meant to be funny"

[grapefarmeral]

This is all fun and games till somebody loses an eye...

I vote for the Mazda...Manufacturer seems to support all forms of racing..... Zoom Zoom

[jhenn4716]

"Before this gets toooo out of hand, please keep in mind the original post was meant to be funny"

Oh but it's those moments between fun and shear terror when we find out who we really are

[jhenn4716]

What I'm really trying to say is lets seriously be funny. What if tomorrow, aliens needing spare parts, steal all the VW motors in the world. What would be a viable option for a motor? We have enough racing knowledge and experience in this group to come up with realistic option. What if SCCA outlaws every 1200/1600 motor, what do we do next.

It's easy to come up with fanciful ideas of F1 engines in FV cars, but why not grab the moment when you have the collective masses of both FV and FST's "greatest" minds and come up with some ideas.

Think of it as a mind bender, a virtual rubic's cube.

[Bill Bonow]

What if tomorrow, aliens needing spare parts, steal all the VW motors in the world. Think of it as a mind bender.

Time to start drug testing at the track.

[problemchild]

If anyone wants to start getting serious about something like this, I'd suggest you focus on AIR COOLED. We don't need no stinkin' WATER all over our garage (and trailer) floors and we don't need any broken blocks from leavin' it in the trailer . That is a major joy for me when it's time to change engines.

Steve, FV80

Coolant is supposed to be in a "closed" system and is much easier to deal with than lightweight synthetic oil leaking from each and every engine and transmission seam
I think that most could adapt and there would be a net reduction in time cleaning the shop and trailer floors.

[problemchild]

Attachment 44186

Not quite sure what to do with this.

[Tiago Santos]

Hahaha.. Looks good to me, but we'd have to make some changes to the frame or the average SCCA driver would be rubbing their belly on the asphalt.

[Rolling Stone]

HD motors are semi dry sump but still utilize ancient designs like the siamese connecting rods on a common crank pin. HD rpm is quite low compared with other motors and don't expect to find them cheaply. A tired shovel head will still cost $5k. Judging by how many HD's is see on the side of the road, it may not be our best choice for reliability either. I've owned and ridden HD's especially when the only alternatives were Triumph and BSA, but I don't own one now. They're quite dated.

They may have been oil leakers but give me the sound of a Triumph Bonneville 650cc over a H.D. any day or a Triton and of course a Norton. .

[fvkartguy]

Here are three engine ideas that fit this thread perfectly.

Is that third picture a spherical or steam engine?

[BLS]

What I'm really trying to say is lets seriously be funny. What if tomorrow, aliens needing spare parts, steal all the VW motors in the world. What would be a viable option for a motor?

Easy, we call out the Enterprise and fight the aliens to get our motors back.

[Bill Bonow]

Is that third picture a spherical or steam engine?

It's a turbine. Here are some details I found on the intertubes.

In the '60s, Turbonique offered a series of jet-turbine conversions for all sorts of cars. Their "Widowmaker" VW bug had a surplus military jet turbine mated to a VW trans axle. They sold a kit for this set up. The powerplant made 850 HP and weighed just 100 lbs. But it burned about 10 gallons (of kerosene) a minute.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk...real_acme.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9FOOMCPUd0

850 HP in a FV with drum brakes?

[SamF]

It is a hybrid gas turbine, it has no compressor section it uses a liquids rocket engine to drive the turbine. They also made these with a pulse jet engines just like the good old V1 Buzz-bomb that reacted the turbine. In either case the engine was compressor free so just the back half a gas turbine engine... Just my work day 2 cents worth.

[rave motorsports]

Honestly we are having great success promoting and developing FST here in the Midwest and we have not even approached a single FV guy to join us. Honestly we don't even care one little bit what FV guys do. Just go racing have fun and sing the virtues of the class you participate. It's a lot more fun !!!!!!

[Bill Bonow]

This would be a great option for FV. No moving parts to break

Get 50 of these together heading into turn 5 at Road America and watch out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0KJwa5iWTY

[SamF]

Honestly we are having great success promoting and developing FST here in the Midwest and we have not even approached a single FV guy to join us. Honestly we don't even care one little bit what FV guys do. Just go racing have fun and sing the virtues of the class you participate. It's a lot more fun !!!!!!

Play nice we are children of the same mother so it is natural have a the usual sibling issues, but that does not mean we can't get along. We in FST have a class we like thanks to a lot of hard work of the FV Folks that we started the class and have kept it going. We are two classes that can play well together on track and that is a good thing.

[B Farnham]

Okay, fair enough. How about adopting the South African Formula Vee solution...an FF chassis with FV H-beam and transaxle mated to a water-cooled EFI VW Golf/Jetta engine?

I like the idea of using a 4cyl EFI water cooled motor. If you look at the Fit motors in FF, if properly maintained they can last many seasons. A good mass produced 4cyl detuned and rev limited to 80-90hp would make for a very fun class and would be much more reliable than the air cooled motors. Plus it would cut down on the closing speeds of the faster classes.