Entry Level Formula Car

[Jnovak]

I suspect that the market for a "kart" car would be limited.

Interesting though. I note that it has a mono shock in both the front and rear. It must have some anti roll mechanism. I also not that the front suspension is actually a swing axle (I think).

[fvkartguy]

I think this is a good illustration for what we're talking about but...

Formula Vee - Slow/Slow/Slow/Safe, Your grand child is watching... ouch.

[Mark Filip]

If you know anything about Karts and kart tires you will realize how fast that thing will eat kart tires. Don't get me wrong It's pretty cool and I would drive it but I don't see something like that running on a car track only Karting tracks and at 10k I would just buy a 125cc shifter kart. Everyone thinks Kart tires are cheap because they are small but that is not always true. When I was karting those tires would run $250 a set and a set lasted 2 races tops and that was over 10 years ago.

I think it needs to be bigger with real tires

[jim murphy]

I suspect that the market for a "kart" car would be limited.

Interesting though. I note that it has a mono shock in both the front and rear. It must have some anti roll mechanism. I also not that the front suspension is actually a swing axle (I think).

I read the specs: Sway bars at both ends.

[fvkartguy]

I suspect that the market for a "kart" car would be limited.

Interesting though. I note that it has a mono shock in both the front and rear. It must have some anti roll mechanism. I also not that the front suspension is actually a swing axle (I think).

Yeah, the front LOOKS like a-arms until you look more closely... it's a swing axle.

I'm trying to find good views of the suspension, but have found anything on the rear...
A google search turned up this:
http://jckronbauer.blogspot.com/2010...pro-racer.html
which looks like the front is a kind of unique monoshock that attaches the spring to an anti-roll T-bar.

As for the rear, their site says "adjustable swaybar" and I see a spring in there... but I don't know. Maybe the spring is attached to the middle of the swaybar?!

[Bill Bonow]

And I'd bet that it's crazy fast.

In reading the website info, lap times are right in the middle between a FV and FF. I wouldn't quite say crazy fast, but certainly not slow.

You know, make it a little longer with slightly bigger tires, full bodywork and maybe a 600 cc engine.... I bet it would look just like this:

[racerdad2]

Spot on Bill !!!

[Stan Clayton]

...looks like he just came from the FV meeting at the Runoffs.

/threadjack

[Jnovak]

If you know anything about Karts and kart tires you will realize how fast that thing will eat kart tires. Don't get me wrong It's pretty cool and I would drive it but I don't see something like that running on a car track only Karting tracks and at 10k I would just buy a 125cc shifter kart. Everyone thinks Kart tires are cheap because they are small but that is not always true. When I was karting those tires would run $250 a set and a set lasted 2 races tops and that was over 10 years ago.

I think it needs to be bigger with real tires

$10K is just for the basic roller kit. A completed racer by them is $30K. Look at FAQs.

[BLS]

Price Tag - 30K ready to go if I read it correctly. Seems a little steep just to keep my grandchildren from watching...

[Mark Filip]

$10K is just for the basic roller kit. A completed racer by them is $30K. Look at FAQs.

I missed that! That's a lot of cash for that

[CJD]

Steve, I like the idea of the motorcycle engines, which sort of goes back to late 50's early 60's introduction to formula car racing. Just keep the mods at a minimum. Also keep it simple, tube frame, no carbon fibre tubs. If you want wings have one wing design that everyone must use. No adjustable shocks, keep the whizzy bits for the faster classes. Someone mentioned earlier that to be on the pointy end of FF you only saw cars with a $4K set of shocks on them. IMO no value added to an entry level car. I would design the car that the left and right suspension components would be reversable to save on spares, if possible make them all universal. sort of what Pontiac did with the Fiero. It just needs to be clothed in a sexy body.

You're right on target regarding the grids. Average age of the typical FF/FC driver is in the 40/50's. Given the cost of a top FF car is over $40K no surprise there. I bought my first FV for $1,500 in 1973, but it was a very simple car, a clone of a Lynx B. Today we're all caught up in having the latest high tech gizmos regarless of cost.

The cars also need to be easy to service. No one today, for the most part services their street cars. That's where I learned basic auto mechanics. The car must be simple enough for the typical owner/driver/mechanic. The demographic you're targeting certainly won't have the budget for a crew.

[Jnovak]

Just for your info, on our new F600 Blade all of the suspension parts fit on both sides of the car and that goes for both the front and the rear suspension. That includes uprights, steering arms, wheel hubs, control arms, rockers, bearing carriers etc.

So we are most of the way to a new entry level car. There are some minor compromises that are rules related IMO but nothing that will impact the functionality of the car.

[S Lathrop]

I would like to see independent rear suspension as an option. A diff is preferable. I have tested spools on road courses and they do work and can be made to work well. I know that the Atlantic race at Long Beach and I think 3 Rivers were won at least once in cars with spools.

I think the car should have a direct relation to what is raced in higher level classes and that is independent suspension at all four corners. Shocks should be tunable. Say a single external adjuster and unlimited valving options. Drivers need to learn something about chassis setups and way more than spec cars allow.

After 20 years of working with drivers who have come up the ladder to Indy Lights and Atlantic before that, I have become frustrated with what they don't know about cars. Teaching drivers about setups such as shock tuning and spring changes is something they need to learn when they start. I certainly can not teach a driver how to tune shocks in a car going 190 mph.



I am ambivalent about wings.

With a FF, it takes work to get the car balanced aerodynamically even though it does not have wings. It would be good for drivers to have a sense of aero dynamic balance that small wings might provide. The trick is to have wings that are small enough that they give no advantage other than good aero balance. The car should not have any balance change with speed which is not necessarily true for most non-winged cars.

My thought is for wings that can fit in a box that is say 3" tall, 6" wide and 36" long. Single element only. The wings can be split. Front body work limited to the same as it is in FF. Rear wing mounted no more that 8" behind the rear wheels.

Allow diffusers but no wider that the car at a plane through the back of the driver's seat. Max height of the diffuser of say 4". The diffuser width is from the rear wheel center line rearward.



I am thinking that we don't have the perfect class out there now but maybe what is available maybe about as good as it is going to be. I see some guys arguing for F500 like cars. What is wrong with F500 as is? And others want FV something. But what is wrong with FV/FST as they are?

I is still fun to explore doing something better than what exists but that may be all that can be done.

[fvkartguy]

$10K is just for the basic roller kit. A completed racer by them is $30K. Look at FAQs.

Oh wow... I missed that too. That's a little too much for a glorified go-kart.

[Jnovak]

I would like to see independent rear suspension as an option. A diff is preferable. I have tested spools on road courses and they do work and can be made to work well. I know that the Atlantic race at Long Beach and I think 3 Rivers were won at least once in cars with spools.

I think the car should have a direct relation to what is raced in higher level classes and that is independent suspension at all four corners. Shocks should be tunable. Say a single external adjuster and unlimited valving options. Drivers need to learn something about chassis setups and way more than spec cars allow.

After 20 years of working with drivers who have come up the ladder to Indy Lights and Atlantic before that, I have become frustrated with what they don't know about cars. Teaching drivers about setups such as shock tuning and spring changes is something they need to learn when they start. I certainly can not teach a driver how to tune shocks in a car going 190 mph.

I am ambivalent about wings.
With a FF, it takes work to get the car balanced aerodynamically even though it does not have wings. It would be good for drivers to have a sense of aero dynamic balance that small wings might provide. The trick is to have wings that are small enough that they give no advantage other than good aero balance. The car should not have any balance change with speed which is not necessarily true for most non-winged cars.

My thought is for wings that can fit in a box that is say 3" tall, 6" wide and 36" long. Single element only. The wings can be split. Front body work limited to the same as it is in FF. Rear wing mounted no more that 8" behind the rear wheels.

Allow diffusers but no wider that the car at a plane through the back of the driver's seat. Max height of the diffuser of say 4". The diffuser width is from the rear wheel center line rearward.

I am thinking that we don't have the perfect class out there now but maybe what is available maybe about as good as it is going to be. I see some guys arguing for F500 like cars. What is wrong with F500 as is? And others want FV something. But what is wrong with FV/FST as they are?

I is still fun to explore doing something better than what exists but that may be all that can be done.

Steve, I have to disagree with you. I totally agree that drivers need to learn how to tune a car, but first they need to be able to afford the car. When you start adding all the things like independent rear suspension, diffs, shocks without any valving control, wings etc, you are going to ad 50% of the cost to the car! to say nothing of the added development costs.

I think a spec shock with a broad range of both rebound and compression will provide the lowest cost with enough adjustments to allow the drivers to learn to tune.

The only thing you loose with a live axle is the camber adjustment. A diff and independent rear suspension will add close to $10K to the cost and development of a car. Besides a spool will allow the drivers to learn how to put the power down earlier.

I am also more than ambivalent about wings and diffusers. I do not want them. A low cost training class will bring them in but the wing crash damage will empty their pocketbooks for no advantage. Also consider the costs to develop wings and the interaction with diffusers. All that aero adds to a training class is $$$$ required to be at the pointy end of the field.

I know that every young driver has a dream to become a pro. I also had that dream and it is good to have goals in your life as it teaches dedication among other things. The reality is that 1 out of every 1000 drivers will move up and that will be because of a combination of MONEY first and talent second. Let's create a class that will survive because it is fast and lower cost than anything else. Build it and they will race them.

It is VERY important that a class like we are discussing is NOT a spec class. We can have some common parts but let the designers and tuners do their thing.

[provamo]

what would be a great entry level professional school car??

[aims20]

Cost is the undisputed #1. Time is a close #2.

With Cost being the undisputed #1, when I found out there was a 1990 Red Devil F500 (440) for sale in my post-college 'home town' I immediately got in touch with the seller. Turned out the car he was selling had been sitting in his garage for 7 years with a blown motor. He had 2 fresh spare motors, 10 additional spare wheels, A full set of suspension wishbones, spare carbs, jets, CVTs, weights, a toolbox, and even more hardware he was throwing into the sale. He just didn't have the time for it, and wanted the space back. The selling cost for all of the above? $2,000 That's called a bargain. And even though I have an appreciation for FVee/FST, They look ungainly and slow and that is the almost knee jerk reaction I get from everyone I've tried to introduce to SCCA club racing without any implied bias. Yes, I know it takes more skill to successfully race an FVee and you can probably get on track with more people, but F5/6 with sidepods and an underbody looks/sounds a lot closer to F1, even FSAE cars that more of my non-racing friends are more familiar with simply through involvement with the project. FSAE and F5/6 are using the same 10" Tires from Hoosier (Yes FSAE cars also use 13" tires too, but the winners in recent years are making the cars smaller, including the wheels)

Still going on the cost point, There's an additional $400 to $2000 for the trailer. And that's assuming you already have access to some kind of tow vehicle. Then another $300 to $600 for the helmet, $700 for the HANS, $400-$600 for suit/gloves/headsock/arm restraints (all of which eventually expire).

Then you have to go to a school that simulates an event weekend. to obtain your racing license. $600 for the double school and that doesn't include your towing and possibly providing for some extra hands to help you realize your investment.

Depending on the shape of the used car you just bought you might be looking at:
$600 for new fuel cell
$200 minimum to update the seat belts
$300 Transponder
$0-$X,XXX to update the car to the current rulebook/safety standards
$0-$X,XXX to make the car run again.
$0-$x,xxx for tools you didn't already have.

You could be looking at $1800 to $6000+ before you even figure out which car you want to run. Never mind consumables, towing, and crash damage. And when you are straight out of college with plenty of student debt, grew up with a cell phone (cell phone bill) and a laptop in your hands, it almost makes more financial sense to stick to video games. Did I mention we probably didn't grow up tuning Carburetors? Even lawmowers have fixed all of the internals these days. In fact my generation is probably far more receptive to paddle shifters and plugging a laptop into the car to adjust the fuel injection.

Then you need to consider the other racing options. You could spend as little as $4000-$6000 split across 4 or 5 friends and race a ChumpCar for 6 hours of straight driving out of a 24 hour event. And that's only 1 race.

Time is the other big issue. I bought my F500 in August of 2012. I'm a design engineer at my full time job with AREVA's Component Replacement and Repair Tooling Group. We fix nuclear reactors on a planned and emergent basis. We had 7 emergencies last year 4 of which required deployment, requiring me to live out of a suitcase for weeks or months each. Not to mention the 100+ hour weeks (Thank God for Comp Time). Add in a side job as a fly in Data guy in F2000, and my F500 sat on jackstands all of last season. I did fire up the new motor for the first time this weekend with all of the upgrades I somehow found the time to add (new wiring, new plumbing, motor swap). Hopefully I'll get it on track this season.

Then there's the fact that some people would rather walk into a K1 Speed/Geforce Karting/Boston F1 type rental kart place right after work and race for a few hours with their friends, and go home and be back in the office the next day. Most club racing weekends are Test Friday, Race Saturday and Sunday. To get your money's worth, you are taking at least a day off of work for track time, assuming the track is within a few hours of home.

As for all of the other passionate racing people, they are probably spending their full time jobs working in ALMS/GrandAm/IndyCar and NASCAR. It's a legitimate engineering industry these days, despite the rough economy. I've kept in touch with a few of my FSAE buddies working in pro-racing and all of them have the money, but wish they had the time to race themselves. And being able to meet and race with their friends is also a factor that helps leave work at work. Not to mention anyone starting a family.

So is $30k a reasonable price point? I don't think so. For something new you've got to try $10k. Yes that will without doubt require a volume expectation for the manufacturer. I think new members are going to come in through the used category if they can get there. That's not to say Jay or anyone haven't put forth a good effort, I realize everyone has the intent and trying to make it work, but what new members really need is help and camaraderie to help make the commitment. There's plenty of passion out there, but several of my friends look at the numbers and can't make the commitment.

So why am I getting involved? Because I love it. The few other friends I have that love it as much as I do either are involved in other classes or working in Pro Racing.

[Stan Clayton]

Anything more sophisticated than a F500 chassis will just cost more.

Granted, but will it have a negative impact on participation?

[Jnovak]

Stan, looking at your graph indicates that F500 is pretty stable compared to the other "low cost" classes.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't believe there's a whole lot of climbing the ladder even within the SCCA club ranks. Many spend the vast majority of their time with SCCA racing in the same class.

I see the benefit of a shared or very similar platform as a reduction in manufacturing costs due to the volume. For the racer, a larger potential resale market and the viability of keeping the same basic platform from one class to another.

As to the potential pro racer climbing the ladder---they aren't spending much time at all in the lower formulae anyways, so an entry level car can certainly be different.

My thoughts are it must be stupid simple in order to be "cheap". Eliminate fancy shocks and transaxles and you've eliminated $6-10K in costs from a new entry level car.

I think the F600 is a perfect package for the entry level or even career club racer looking for bang for the buck in a new car.

I'm curious how much cheaper could the car be if it was available with a single cylinder 450-650cc thumper that put out 60ish HP instead of 100? How much easier would it be on all the consumables and therefore less expensive to race? Would that "theoretical" car be light enough that with 60ish HP it would still be faster than a FV and yet easily upgradeable to a 4cyl 600?

[S Lathrop]

Jay;

If we stay with a solid rear axel, then we already have the class. Yes, it would be fun to tweak it by why?

The rotating parts in the Citation FB are less than $5000. The most expensive part is the Variloc center section at $2500. Now if I could beat the cost of the rotating parts to below $1000 or even $1500 then I think IRS is viable in a low cost car. Otherwise you are right in that the solid axel is the only or best low cost option.

There might be a third option, the VW type swing axel. The first chain drive car I built used a Hewland center section, but I could have used VW parts as well. The 750cc bike engine cars of the '60's had a very simple swing axel system without a diff.

May be there is something in the off road vehicles that we can adapt.

We have identified one of the design problems/issues.

[S Lathrop]

Stan;

Do you have the numbers for SCCA sanctioned races for FC? I think if you added those numbers to the National participation numbers, you would see that FF and FC have remained about equal with FC maybe a little higher.

I wonder if FC pro, FC national and FF combined would be a constant line or declining curve? All of these drivers are SCCA license holders and club members.

Is FV the canary in the mine?

[CJD]

One thing that occured to me regarding attracting folks to our hobby. Most of the kids now are extremely tech savy in IT. Maybe the link to the entry level car is through simulation. I know flight simulations now exist for RC aircraft. We have kids learning guitar because they were exposed to Guitar Hero. Might the answer be the race car contructors team with the Gaming folks. The racing games today are wildly successuful, but typically model cars most of us cannot afford. What if a partnership developed to simulate the entry level cars, where utltimately the kids could move into the real car. Maybe a little far fetched, but trying to think outside of the box.

[Marty Nygard]

Andrew said "So is $30k a reasonable price point? I don't think so. For something new you've got to try $10k."
I am the king of cheap. For the last couple of years I built an alleged track day car in my garage. Two seat tube frame chassis, used bike motor with stock exhaust header, full independent suspension, torsen style diff in self made housing, minimal bodywork, all new rod ends, readily available hubs and half shafts, etc. My cost for materials alone was just north of $14,000. Labor was free.
If you could buy materials at a discount, had to pay (even at Chinese rates) labor and still make a minimal profit, I don't see any way possible to make a car under $10K.
Best of luck to all who endeavor.
Marty
BTW Mandating all fiberglass/no carbon body work is a false economy. I would argue that for the home builder, carbon is cheaper.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan;

Do you have the numbers for SCCA sanctioned races for FC? I think if you added those numbers to the National participation numbers, you would see that FF and FC have remained about equal with FC maybe a little higher.

I wonder if FC pro, FC national and FF combined would be a constant line or declining curve? All of these drivers are SCCA license holders and club members.

Is FV the canary in the mine?

Steve, do you mean the east and west cost pro series for FC and FF? I do not have those data, but your point is well taken.

I'm not convinced FV or any single class for that matter is the canary. All formula classes saw some recovery in 2013 from recent years. National race participation also recovered to historic levels, so it's hard IMO to draw definitive conclusions. With the Runoffs moving to Laguna Seca it will be interesting to watch 2014 participation.

[jim murphy]

Andrew Spencer: "I've kept in touch with a few of my FSAE buddies working in pro-racing and all of them have the money, but wish they had the time to race themselves."

This is the very reason we started a F600 rental/support/repair/build business called F600 Racing (F6R) www.formula600racing.com And with the first season just finished of money racing called The Formula 600 Challenge Series www.theformula600challenge.com
where over $38K was awarded in purses/towfund/contingencies our two rental drivers, Matt Strand and George Fox used ther winnings to reduce the rental cost. For 2014 we will have 3 or 4 cars available for rent by the race or lease for the Series. Sign up now before they are reserved.

Jim

[jim murphy]

One thing that occured to me regarding attracting folks to our hobby. Most of the kids now are extremely tech savy in IT. Maybe the link to the entry level car is through simulation. I know flight simulations now exist for RC aircraft. We have kids learning guitar because they were exposed to Guitar Hero. Might the answer be the race car contructors team with the Gaming folks. The racing games today are wildly successuful, but typically model cars most of us cannot afford. What if a partnership developed to simulate the entry level cars, where utltimately the kids could move into the real car. Maybe a little far fetched, but trying to think outside of the box.

We have the global champion for simulation racing (won in October in Europe) as the F600 Challenge Series Champion - Matt Strand. Matt has already built a simulated F600 - my KBS Mk.8 F600 that he leased from me for the Series. I am going to find out more about Matt's championship and post it here. I will ask Matt to post here.

Jim

[BLS]

"I would argue that for the home builder, carbon is cheaper."

Marty, just curious why you consider it less expensive?

[Marty Nygard]

Lighter, fewer layers, less epoxy and less labor for the same stiffness. The relative costs of the cloth seem to have converged in recent years.
Marty

[romoman]

I'm not sure my opinion is even worth $.02, but here it is: Straight spec is boring. Using a spec wing, shocks, etc is not really fun to race, prepare, or build. The idea of a "box rule" is much more fun. You can have required common parts for the items that require the most money - things like uprights, motors, shocks, etc - but let people play with the other things. Steve's idea of the wing having to fit in a certain size box and be one element is very good. Same for the suspension arms having size requirements of spread and width. All this would have to fit on a chassis with a min and max track width, wheel base, weight, height.

Call out one engine, intake, and exhuast and then let people right there own tunes. With ECUs like Megasquirt, Simple Digital, etc people will have lots of options on what to do with their programs. Same idea on shocks. Pick something reasonably priced from the circle track world and then let people valve it any way they want.

This would also let car designers design different chassis (with different solutions to suspension, motor mounting, etc) and then provide either completed cars, kits, or just drawings for the home builder. This would allow people to pick their level of involvement in the class and have some buy in form the start.

[aims20]

One thing that occured to me regarding attracting folks to our hobby. Most of the kids now are extremely tech savy in IT. Maybe the link to the entry level car is through simulation. I know flight simulations now exist for RC aircraft. We have kids learning guitar because they were exposed to Guitar Hero. Might the answer be the race car contructors team with the Gaming folks. The racing games today are wildly successuful, but typically model cars most of us cannot afford. What if a partnership developed to simulate the entry level cars, where utltimately the kids could move into the real car. Maybe a little far fetched, but trying to think outside of the box.

This is how it started for me in a lot of ways. Playing Mariokart with friends when I was young brought the fun into it. As I got older the games got more mature and realistic. I thoroughly enjoyed games where you could set up the car (tire pressures, gearing, toe/camber/caster, springs/dampers/ride heights/wing angles, etc.). Spent $100 bucks in High School on a Logitech MOMO force feedback wheel and another $800 bucks and built my own gaming computer. Played countless online races with friends. The fun factor is that you don't have to tow the car to the track, you can't die, the entry fee is the $40 you paid for the game (except iRacing), you can do it at your leisure (not always a schedule; someone is always hosting a race), and it's live with your friends and hundreds if not thousands of other gear heads around the world from the comfort of your own home. Race lengths vary and there is very little waiting in between sessions; Races can be anywhere as short as 5-10 minutes and online league racing can be upwards of 3 hours or more (or less).

I think my engineering education forced me to grow out of it and apply myself to the real world for the necessity of obtaining a job, being a good at it, as well as actually driving our engineering creation in FSAE. But I still have my PC Racing wheel, and an active iRacing.com account.

Andrew said "So is $30k a reasonable price point? I don't think so. For something new you've got to try $10k."
I am the king of cheap. For the last couple of years I built an alleged track day car in my garage. Two seat tube frame chassis, used bike motor with stock exhaust header, full independent suspension, torsen style diff in self made housing, minimal bodywork, all new rod ends, readily available hubs and half shafts, etc. My cost for materials alone was just north of $14,000. Labor was free.
If you could buy materials at a discount, had to pay (even at Chinese rates) labor and still make a minimal profit, I don't see any way possible to make a car under $10K.

Fair enough. I will never blame anyone for trying to make a profit. I guess what I'm getting at is that attracting new members won't necessarily happen with a new race car. Used, depreciated equipment is the only thing that will ease the financial hurdle, and having someone who knows the equipment is a plus for questions. Formula500.org and ApexSpeed help too if you've been around long enough to know where to find the info (or if you are good with the search function).

Andrew Spencer: "I've kept in touch with a few of my FSAE buddies working in pro-racing and all of them have the money, but wish they had the time to race themselves."

This is the very reason we started a F600 rental/support/repair/build business called F600 Racing (F6R) www.formula600racing.com And with the first season just finished of money racing called The Formula 600 Challenge Series www.theformula600challenge.com
where over $38K was awarded in purses/towfund/contingencies our two rental drivers, Matt Strand and George Fox used ther winnings to reduce the rental cost. For 2014 we will have 3 or 4 cars available for rent by the race or lease for the Series. Sign up now before they are reserved.

Jim

I will pass this along. Can't speak for any schedule conflicts but I'll try to sell it to them.

I'm at work and can't get onto facebook, but if you guys have a facebook page that can be shared I will certainly look into spreading the word.

Last year I posted a link to the Runoffs video of the F500 race. It was rather well received to those that weren't familiar with club racing. However, most all of them still need to get licensed.

[jim murphy]

The Facebook page is "Formula 600 Challenge" and its moderator is Chris Ross, one of the Challenge competitors and the new owner of one of the first F600 Blades.

Also there is a F600 section in this forum so that you can read all the history, etc.

Jim

[BLS]

"Lighter, fewer layers, less epoxy and less labor for the same stiffness."

Thanks Marty. My thoughts were along those lines. I am thinking of giving CF a try.

[P Burke]

The idea of a cost effective car is not only the initial but maintenance cost as the class continues. Maybe only a few remember the SR class when it first came out....cost right at $10,000 Now the conversion kit cost more than the original car cost. In my mind we should also be thinking about what may happen in the future if possible. Example: some discussion on solid vs independant rear axles. Look at what has happened to the rear trans/suspensions of the current FF/FC cars with special coatings, REM finishes, gun drilled axles, light CV joints and drilled axles, scalloped/drilled brake rotors. In my mind an independant rear suspension brings with it much additional cost. Yes you can write rules against these things, but it becomes harder to police. I am not promoting a F500/F600 type of axle, but unless I am missing something there just isn't much that can be done with it . Easy to police and cheap keeping current and future costs down. Some change is unavoidable, I'm not convinced it all is.

[Stan Clayton]

In my mind an independant rear suspension brings with it much additional cost. Yes you can write rules against these things, but it becomes harder to police. I am not promoting a F500/F600 type of axle, but unless I am missing something there just isn't much that can be done with it . Easy to police and cheap keeping current and future costs down. Some change is unavoidable, I'm not convinced it all is.

You're missing the option of an IRS Spool, like what is on Amacs and numerous other pre-Stohr DSRs. No diff...just a welded center section using VW half-shafts complete with steel inner and outer CV joints.

[nulrich]

If I understand Steve's original idea, we are really discussing an "entry level" formula car that grows formula car racing in this country. That means bringing in new people, especially young people, into racing generally and formula car racing specifically. Much respect to my FV and F500 friends, but those cars simply do not attract many people unfamiliar with racing, and their initial reaction to those cars is generally not positive.

For most people outside of racing, car enthusiasts, technology enthusiasts, and so on, formula car racing is Formula 1 and IndyCar. An entry-level formula car designed to attract new racers should share as many characteristics as possible with those cars, while keeping cost under control.

The challenge is how to do that....and whether simple low-cost wings and an independent rear suspension are necessary.

Also, I'm assuming this car is primarily targeted to club racing at the local level. The $25k cost represents less than two weekends of expenditure for a typical F2000 pro team (where car cost is much less important than all the other expenses).

One crazy idea: what about a cost cap? They are trying that for LMP engines and chassis (much bigger number, of course). What kind of innovation might we see if we say "do whatever you want, but a complete car must cost less than $25k" ready to race?

[Marty Nygard]

How about a claiming rule?! Used with some degree of success in many circle track venues. Anybody on the podium can claim any other car in class for $XXK.
Marty
Note: If you want, I can administer this program for 20% of every transaction.

[John]

I started in go-karts moved through Karts to Super Karts and then got a formula ford, and didn't like it. It was slow and unresponsive so I got an Amac DSR and put that together and lots of fun with it.
It was Cheap relatively about $20k
Simple tube frame and fiberglass
fast, faster than most everything than an FA
and I could win races with it.

It met more or less the requirements I had when I left go-karts after crashing in front of the wife and getting ejected from the Kart at speed, and rolling down the track (go get something with seat belts...)

Seems like the old AMAC meets a lot of the requirements listed in the threads posted here.

We could spec out a formula car with spec shocks or a claimer rule at $1k max for a set
Willwood type cheapy 4 puck brakes
etc etc
That leaves the drive train
Personally I like motorcycle motors but it is a lot to ask for the non mechanically inclined
VW stuff is just too old

Have you looked at the fast forward 818, it uses a Subaru 4 wheel drive platform in a mid engine config. There are turbo and non turbo version and the prices of the drivelines are under 6k for the higher end turbo versions. If we use as many donor parts as possible I bet you end up with a car that is less than 25k and very fast. A lot of the work to move the driveline into a formula car has already been done by factory five

https://www.factoryfive.com/videos/project-818/

I actually think there is a bigger issue

When was the last time you told someone you raced cars, and when they asked what type and you answered SCCA they knew what you were talking about...

The SCCA used to run advertised racing events when I was a kid, like the June Sprints and the Pacific Coast run offs now we do nothing and no one has heard of the SCCA. Unless you are racing nut and determined we are quite hard to find. I think that in addition to fixing the classes we need to promote SCCA on a local and regional basis.

[jim murphy]

When was the last time you told someone you raced cars, and when they asked what type and you answered SCCA they knew what you were talking about...

The SCCA used to run advertised racing events when I was a kid, like the June Sprints and the Pacific Coast run offs now we do nothing and no one has heard of the SCCA. Unless you are racing nut and determined we are quite hard to find. I think that in addition to fixing the classes we need to promote SCCA on a local and regional basis.



Marketing the local races, solo events and the region website is a function of the local region. They just need to do it.
You can help by volunteering to do the marketing for your region - just talk to the RE or a board member, they will be very glad for your help.

Jim