You cant buy a new shifter kart for 10k and the performance level is between a F500/600 and FF. Why would a karter move over to Formula car for another 15-20k in equipment for lateral performance.Originally Posted by Marty Nygard
The answer is not a new class that further dilutes Formula car racing in this country.
Karters & MC racers look at SCCA RR as a much safer venue that will go fast enough
to fix their adrenaline addiction. Especially when the wives/girlfriends "tell" them to find
something safer. This club has a lot of members who are former karters and MC racers.
Jim
Former karter and MC rider
The discussion about independent rear suspension focused on the cost of the rear drive assembly.
A spool would be the least expensive. I have drawn something that I could stick in a Citation FB. The aluminum material from McMaster-Carr is $83 for the 2 pieces. One is flat 6"x6"x 1.5" and the other is 4" diameter 6" long. There are 2 VW CV joints at $40 each. and 2 bearings 90mm ID, 140 mm OD and 24 mm wide, double sealed at $120 each. 2 CV joint boots (which I don't have a price for), 6 5/16x24 by 8" long bolts at $2.54 each and 6 K nuts at $0.84 each. That is $423.28 in materials less the boots. $300 machining time and you have drive assembly for well under $1000.
Given time I might be able to come up with a differential and still keep the assembly under $1000.
Any time that you go away from simplicity the costs go up.
To be fair, I think you need to include the costs of the bearing carrier assembly.
Marty
If cost, intial and running, is primary factor...
Use 750 motors and regulate gearing to keep RPM's down thus longevity up.
Also, have the rules dictate the engine can not be newer than 3 or 5 years. That way some manufacturer can't bring the latest and greatest gadget to market and it immediately show up in a car because the guy went down and bought the new model to part out the day it hits the showroom. Creates chance for more power plants and sources for replacement parts and any legal upgrades
No wings or other major aero.
An approved list of street tire mfg and models and sizes, not just DOT racing tires.
Body work that is vacuum formed ABS or some other plastic. resilient and could be moulded from bucks for fiber glass.
Two way adjustable, no canister shocks.
Another though with the motorcycle i had 15 years ago, start a "Motorcycle Powered Racecar Association" and build relationships with the MC trackday guys. Down here, I know one that has expressed interest in allowing me some testing time at their track days, thats huge for me when I finish my f600 conversion. Something like this could create a good opportunity to build relationships with Legends guys, baby grands, etc., creating a full line up, just as SCCA has, of formula and sedan guys. Also a good chance to group buy things thru a single point of contact. Just a dream.
I think something similar to FF with a 750 would be a vary good bridge between 600 and F1000 and still be "entry level".
It is too bad "spec class" in SCCA really means single source as most of the other items being discussed could be covered by a decent specification listing parameters, models, etc. similar to a construction specification for lighting fixtures, hvac equipment, or plumbing fixtures.
This is how the center sections are sold. I use 2 square blocks of aluminum to mount the bearings, The shape of the blocks will depend on what you do after that with the car design. The blocks can be 1" thick with a 5.5" dia. hole (140mm) in the middle and a .060 shoulder to retain the bearing. A couple more holes to bolt the block in the frame and you got it.
Diff carrier
We did the same thing for my FB CNC machined pair of billet blocks to hold the diff. Knocking out a couple more blocks is not expensive now the patterns are done. The car really was not the problem the place where the money got spent was
the plumbing, EFI, fire, safety, rod ends, not to mention the custom stainless exhaust and header, custom radiator, $500 oil cooler, MXL Pista, dry sump tank and pan, etc etc
Unless we set this up to use manufactured components in runs of more than 1 or 2, this gets very expensive very fast.
I think that in order to mange cost lots of things we add to the cars have to be regulated to allow for an entry level car. No data, no wings, spending limits on brakes, shocks, radiators, etc.
I always thought that the way to make a small fortune racing cars was to start with a big one. but now I know that the way to do more effectively is to build race cars...
This has been a very good discussion and I have enjoyed reading all the posts.
I second a suggestion already made where the Factory Five approach is adopted where a specific donor car is specified and used for the driveline, electronics, and suspension to attempt to reduce cost. If it is sold as a kit car, then the buyer has the opportunity to save more money by shopping around for the cheapest donor car.
But I am also a fan like many of you for design freedom and think that can be possible by leaving the door open as to how the driveline, suspension, and cockpit is linked together. So set box limits on wheelbase, track, etc. but let the designers have the freedom to develop their own ideal combination.
It already has been mentioned before about SCCA targeting the younger generation in great length. In the US there are already thousands of college age individuals who have spent countless hours around cars; are mechanically inclined, racing enthusiasts; and once the student loans are paid off will have income to sustain the hobby.
I believe this group of people - Formula SAE - is the key to SCCA's future success and we need to grow the programs that have already been mentioned that get these younger members behind the wheel.
Tim
(Former FSAE'er)
I've been thinking along those same lines, Tim, and came up with the idea of spec'ing Miata running gear, wheels, and SM spec tires. Complete front and rear uprights are widely and cheaply available, and the spec tire would provide an additional level of grip and price control.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Are you thinking a front engine open wheel car Stan or a Sports Racer?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Neither, Jay. I'm talking about using Miata front and rear uprights, wheels, brakes, tires, etc., as "specified" parts on the hypothetical entry level formula car under discussion. It would still be a tube frame chassis with a 600cc m/c engine with chain drive to an open diff/spool.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Thanks Stan, I mis-understood.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
trike
How about a delta trike . Get rid of all the expensive rear end issues. Cool enough to attract the young racers. Saves money on tires and shocks . Run ASR. Perhaps even a motorcycle group would allow them as well. I'll even put up 5k to get it going if I can track day a few times!
Just a thought.
Miata
The issue with the miata drive train, is you don't solve the transaxle problem for an inexpensive car you need an inexpensive transaxle or chain drive. That is the appealing part of the Subaru drive train, you can use the 4wd trans as a transaxle as factory five has done with the 818. I am not aware of a transaxle solution for a miata unles you use a transmission, hooked to a diff, but I think that would make for a very long package for a mid engined car.
Transaxle
Why not use a VW IRS transaxle with an adaptor plate to a Rabbit engine? Restrict the engine to a single side draft carb.
D
that is easily solved if you make a class that is relevant to current trends and the future direction of what people are interested in. a successful "new" class will be of interest to young kids. (high school / college) and will be something they can relate to and have an interest in understanding.
get rid of the cooling system, get rid of the gear box, shifter, get rid of the oil/cooler, starter, plugs, fuel cell... go with an AC poly phase motor. no regeneration. simple. put the "spec" battery pack lump where an engine would normally reside, make it easily swappable. come up with a really compelling electric formula class.
before you come with torches and pitchforks... i know i know - tracks don't have the infrastructure of rapid charging. but again - if the intent is to start a "new class" that has some relevance and meaning and not just upgrade (or downgrade) a current class and add one more thing - i think , you need to think about what the industry is interested in, what people are looking at and interested in, and what would grasp onto someones imagination.
FWIW....
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
How about an FF with a 600cc motorcycle engine. That seems cheap enough for a real car.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
A great idea, however it will not be even close to entry level. Maybe 4 times what entry level is.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Another teaser
Just a look.
Last edited by Jnovak; 10.28.14 at 7:12 PM.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
That with IRS and F600 get a whole more interesting. Slightly longer wheel base and some updated bodywork rules and bingo a new entry level car.
Last edited by SEComposites; 01.09.14 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Clarification. Not an attack on F600!
Not unless you have a direct line to the BOD to create a new class.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I meant within the context of this thread.
No offence to you (really). Your comment just seem to chime in with many. "Oh it's great but if only it were..." So referring to the collective "you"...
So for want of a couple more inches of wheelbase, shocks and springs, the F600s miss the mark? Performance vs. cost is excellent, but you don't fit? Have you tried one on? No less roomy than a lot of FVs,...
I am not sure what you mean by "updated" bodywork but that is the challenge for the constructors. What class has "updated" bodywork? FC and FF live on with designs from the late 90's (Radon being the exception, but really how different is it?). FV has not seen a new car for longer than that. I think the f500 in the banner pic is newer than most FFs, FCs and FV's. Do you consider it "updated"?
I just thought I would add my 2 cents to the thread...
Jim
I meant within the context of this thread. Again. This is not a F600 discussion. My point was a more mainstream version of the 600 car would be a potential fit to this threads title question. Thats all.
What's a Rabbit?
What's a carb?
I don't mean to take this thread off-topic, but if the goal is to bring more people into racing through development of a low-cost, decent performance racecar, mightn't it be worthwhile to consider an entry-level sports racer rather than a formula car? The costs needn't be significantly different (isn't a sports racer just a formula car with slightly more elaborate pajamas?), and sports racers can be run at track days put on by several organizations in addition to being raced with SCCA and elsewhere. That expanded opportunity to run may not only make ownership more attractive, it can also provide more practice for newer entrants into the sport.
What about a formula car similar to the Ariel Atom? Maybe a fender option for the track day guys mentioned above. The wider frame allows for a front wheel drive transaxle in the rear. Bigger guys can fit.
I was at a track day a few years back, an Ariel Atom was running with the Formula and Sports Racer group and was the most popular car in the paddock. Guys in their twenties geeking out over this thing. I found the photo below on a Honda forum in a thread title something like "I want to build a mid-engine car".
The ride along factor would be an excellent selling tool to get people hooked.
Have you sat in the Blade? Have you sat in some of the larger cockpit F600's?
The sidepods provide a HUGE advantage for packaging which the FV's and FF's desperately need. And almost everything can be moved to fit you better.
Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982.
Ian,
What are the new / used costs for the cars in the photo?
Thanks!
Mark
I believe they start at $50k.
I personally think that the F600 is the bees knees. If I had enough cash to go for one I would. It's like a cheap FF. I've contemplated FV for a year now, the racing aspect looks great, but I'm not sure how much interest I have in tuning carburetors.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
Because racing around a miniature track in a miniature vehicle gets old after a while. Sure karts have huge performance, but if you expect to do it at a high level you are looking at a 100k a year. What does that get you? A miniature vehicle on a miniature track, that's what. 100k will get you a very nice season and 140mph in a 2 liter car.
I've actively karted for 20 years, I absolutely love it, but cars are a different challenge in many aspects.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
Chris,
Tuning Carbs? You neither have to tune a FV or FST Carb on a daily basis, and once the proper jetting is established by the engine builder, you're better off just leaving
it unless you live in high altitudes and race at variable elevations?
Mark
88' Citation 002
I have sat in a Blade. Very very tight. Probably not safe for me at 5'11". Pictures were posted on Apexspeed during the runoff 13.
Thus, IMHO in the context of this thread, the target car needs a longer chassis than a F600 or FV.
Jay and I have talked about it. And I do recognize the challenge of getting any new class in SCCA. But for the sake of argument, if there were 100 of these cars around, SCCA would buy in. They bought into FB with a far lower car count.
Remember the topic of this thread. It is not a F600 thread. This is a mid-winter mind game thread, and in my opinion a better thread than many of the mid-winter arguments in past years.
My point really wasn't that I'd have to tune a carburetor, is was more so that the technology is extremely antiquated in respect to most aspects of the car. Truth be told, I get a sense of gratification from tuning a carburetor properly.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
In the context of an off-season "blue sky" concept, I just haven't heard any drivetrain concept that comes close to the 600 cc motorcycle engine in terms of cost, peformance, weight, size, sound, etc. With inlet restrictors and restricted power, you should be able to get very long life. What power level is reasonable?
The ideal would be to find a manufacturer willing to supply brand new crate motorcycle engines (Honda or the equivalent).
I think the wheelbase has to be MUCH longer than an F600. I'm 6'5" and I just barely fit in an Rn.10 with a 104" wheelbase. Of course a 600 cc motorcycle engine and gearbox is substantially shorter than a Zetec engine and LD200, but still.
I think safety is going to be critical if you want to attract new drivers. For that reason alone, the driver's feet should probably be at least behind the centerline of the front wheels.
Jay, what would be wheelbase have to be to accomplish that for a 6'5" driver and a 600 cc motorcycle drivetrain?
Thoughts
I was thinking a bit more broadly
That is why I keep harping on the Subaru drive line
You can pick up a Subaru Impreza RS 4wd wrecked for a 3-4k with 165 hp and the WRX drivelines run up over 300HP with mild mods. A donor car kit for the 818 from a WRK is under 6k with brakes, Axles, CVs, engine and trans.
With a similar platform you could move from a 165hp up to and beyond the 300hp wrx with minor mods. The cars a pretty plentiful and thanks to Factory Five there is an industry developing to make these cars into kits.
818 and the builders are quoting sub 20k for an assembled car using a wrx donor. I wonder, with less to do, but more safety, if we could not build a race car for less than 25k using as many parts as possible from an impreza. If it was possible to use the uprights, brakes, axles and CVs I bet it could be done.
Faster classes could use more and more bespoke parts as the power increases with the cost.
Just thinking out loud.
John
This is what you really want
motors, inverter/rectifiers, and batteries are not THAT expensive... and are readily available and not bleeding edge at all. and your not buying a lot of other parts (fuel cells, sumps, exhausts, radiators, etc..). - the chassis cost are what they are no matter the drivetrain. the big glitch in the operation - but is the charging between sessions.
electric motorcycles are around ~1.75x the price of gas powered ones - however the economics are that electric motorcycles are boutique built, not mass produced - so its an apples to oranges metric. formula cars are not mass produced... the gap is less.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/
does anyone really need another new formula car class? (when you can buy a used class on the cheap?) ...you can't buy a used "new formula car" if the entire formula is innovative. that is what i am getting at.
electric drivetrains are coming wether any of us like it or not... more and more, there will not be less and less. so "relevant to the future of industry".
i am just throwing the idea out there free of charge. take it as you will. steve ask for creative ideas so there you have it
Atoms are now built by TMI at VIR, they make a spec atom race car. its ~50k again, boutique (like a caterham) built because comparing them in content to something like a mass produced BMW m3 is unfair.
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
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