Tires

[AVR_Shane]

I thought it would be appropriate timing to start talking about tire situations in FV again. Some people might be interested in Noel's post:

As a quick update. The falken tires have completed a 3rd season on the same set!

Roughly 18 race weekends 50+ races and 15 or so test days (5 sessions per day)

Still about 20% at about 400$ a set that is 8$ per race!! And could still do most of another season.

Spec tires do work!

Another point of interest...a few F1200 guys went down to race at The Glen in the end of October, and ran on the F1200 wheels/tires and the F1200 legal intake manifold. Having never run there before, Matt Garwood had one practice session and one qualifying session before the race. He finished in 5th place, 17 seconds behind the leaders who were national level guys including Ray Carmody and Arnold Carbaugh Jr...oh, and btw, he was running on two year old tires (36 races) that cost $400 and have lots of life left as Noel's post suggests.

[Tiago Santos]

[Rolling Stone]

And Noel is a fast driver too,like Matt always with the front pack pushing the tires to the limits...yep!they work and as posted by me before they look a lot better on a F1200/Vee

[Mark Filip]

National level FVs run 2:15-2:17 laps at the Glen

[AVR_Shane]

In perfect conditions, sure. This was a cold "green" day in the middle of October. Some people may have different opinions, but I would consider the leaders of that group to be national level.

I'll also remind...if everyone has the same tires, everyone has the same "penalty", whether it is 2 seconds or 10 seconds.

[BLS]

National level FVs run 2:15-2:17 laps at the Glen

As a point of interest, what were the lap times on the F1200 tires?

[AVR_Shane]

Matt did a 2:26 on the F1200 radials, Arnold Carbaugh Jr did a 2:23 as the fast lap of the race on slicks

[D. Rader]

I Don't know for sure, but my records show a 2:23 would put you 4th last on Sundays grid, and a 2:26 would put you 3 sec. behind last on the grid. 9 seconds a lap, is a very long time. possibly enough time on the back straight to calculate how much money your saving.

[nbrigido]

Congrats to Matt for a good finish for first time on the track and racing in the US.

[nbrigido]

I Don't know for sure, but my records show a 2:23 would put you 4th last on Sundays grid, and a 2:26 would put you 3 sec. behind last on the grid. 9 seconds a lap, is a very long time. possibly enough time on the back straight to calculate how much money your saving.

The original post was intended to compare with others using the same tires in FV / F1200

I Honestly don't know the lap times of the cars that were there and how they compare to each other, Finishing 5th I think is still very respectable in any series. Great job Matt.

But I do know that as far as RACING in concerned, costs are one of the main reasons people leave, don't get started or limit their time in the sport. at 8$ per race and being competitive with all the other cars on the track, usually 16+ for every race, I don't see a downside. Not to mention the time need to mount and balance tires, and no rain tires required.

BTW the back straight with equal cars usually does not allow time to think about anything else, other than maintaining the draft and making the pass.

[Chris Elwell]

100% agree. A spec radial tire makes a lot of sense, for all the reasons the F1200 guys are listing.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Except I want to race a car with real race tires, not street tires. If I wanted to race something on street tires I would race a production car. Formula cars are not supposed to race on street tires, much like real race cars don't have fenders.

Not to mention the big treaded tires are just plain butt ugly.

[Amon]

Mike,

How do you really feel?


Mark

[AVR_Shane]

Except I want to race a car with real race tires, not street tires. If I wanted to race something on street tires I would race a production car. Formula cars are not supposed to race on street tires, much like real race cars don't have fenders.

Not to mention the big treaded tires are just plain butt ugly.

We have a formula ford series that runs up here on Toyo proxies, and believe me they are just as serious as any of the pro formula Ford's in US, some of them running both. They never complain about running on street tires rather than racing tires.

When I am in my F1200, in a pack with 10 other cars, the last think I'm thinking about (or care about) is that I'm racing on street tires.

Finally, with all due respect, I think the butt ugly thing would go away pretty quick when you save $10,000+ in two years on your tire budget.

[Tiago Santos]

I think real race cars should have more than 60hp, wings, carbon fibre tubs and sequential gear boxes. I also think the Le Mans prototypes, the sports racers and heck, even GT classes are more of a race car than a vee.

I understand the concern though, our cars are silly enough as it is, slicks are still the one thing that makes them sound like a real thing:

- So how much horsepower have you got in there? - says a random guy walking the paddock.
- Hmmm about 65 or so - says the vee guy, already lying by about 7 or 8hp.
- Oh.. So do you guys run at the kart track, or..
- No, no, it's a real race car! We have slicks and everything!
- Ah, right.. So what are those things attached to the wheels, are they weights for setup or something?
- Err.. They're.. uh.. brake drums.. They're actually really efficient..!
- Oh.

[Bill Bonow]

Thought it would be a few more weeks before the annual tire discussions began

Well, at least I have some "mod entertainment" beyond watching classified ads for duplicates, early bumps and no pricing

Let the madness begin!!!

[nbrigido]

Except I want to race a car with real race tires, not street tires. If I wanted to race something on street tires I would race a production car. Formula cars are not supposed to race on street tires, much like real race cars don't have fenders.

Not to mention the big treaded tires are just plain butt ugly.

Beauty is the eye of the be-holder...LOL

But a the end of the day, all things being equal, should it not be driving skills that make racing what it is?

A formula car on radials is not a freak. I think (personal opinion) it will increase the level of competition, as well as possible increase the car counts.

Each region will have their own opinion in what works for them, but if we were to take some of the $$$ aspect out of a series, and bring it back to driver skill and car prep, you end up with a win-win.

[nbrigido]

Thought it would be a few more weeks before the annual tire discussions began

Well, at least I have some "mod entertainment" beyond watching classified ads for duplicates, early bumps and no pricing

Let the madness begin!!!

First snow fall about to begin in Ontario, have to do something.

[nbrigido]

I think real race cars should have more than 60hp, wings, carbon fibre tubs and sequential gear boxes. I also think the Le Mans prototypes, the sports racers and heck, even GT classes are more of a race car than a vee.

I understand the concern though, our cars are silly enough as it is, slicks are still the one thing that makes them sound like a real thing:

- So how much horsepower have you got in there? - says a random guy walking the paddock.
- Hmmm about 65 or so - says the vee guy, already lying by about 7 or 8hp.
- Oh.. So do you guys run at the kart track, or..
- No, no, it's a real race car! We have slicks and everything!
- Ah, right.. So what are those things attached to the wheels, are they weights for setup or something?
- Err.. They're.. uh.. brake drums.. They're actually really efficient..!
- Oh.

Let's add to the to it....Here is a video clip of Mosport, 9 car train (19 car field) for most of the race (this has become the norm). You have many different cars. Protoform, Caracal, BRD, Blackhole, Mysterian, Lynx. Engines from Nobel, Vallis, Autowerx..

Everyone is running the same tires Some 3 years old, some brand new. Mix of everything.

http://youtu.be/UPnZHagJlcM

No one is worried that they did not have the $$$ to spend on a new set of slicks to be part of the top group.

[Tiago Santos]

Yeah, but those guys aren't pushing at the forefront of motorsport, they're not as serious as the front runners in the pinnacle of all racing seriousness - SCCA Formula Vee!

I mean, show me one guy that did well in F1200 that also did well in SCCA? I bet it never happened.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Part of the enjoyment and satisfaction of driving a race car comes from being on the fine line between control and out of control. The good race car drivers are the ones who can dance right on that fine line, or the "edge". But what makes that "edge" in the first place? I would argue the edge results from the tractive force generated by the tires. A real race car tire has a very peaky tractive force vs. slip angle relation. Getting the most out of the tires requires some serious skill to keep the tire operating right at the peak of it's tractive force.

Street tires, on the other hand, are designed with a very wide and flat tractive force curve. They obtain maximum grip over a wide range of slip angles. Boring. Effectivly this reduces driver skill requirements, which kind of defeats the whole point in the first place, no?

[Matt King]

T

Let the madness begin!!!

What's the over/under on post count for a winter spec tire thread?

[Bill Bonow]

Matt,

Not sure, but the last (2) tire based threads had these stats:

(39) posts - Starting August 6, 2012

(249) posts - Starting January 19, 2012

There are other threads, but the topics are sort of mixed together.

I'd bet this is good for about 50 posts or so........ Any takers?

[nbrigido]

Matt,

Not sure, but the last (2) tire based threads had these stats:

(39) posts - Starting August 6, 2012

(249) posts - Starting January 19, 2012

There are other threads, but the topics are sort of mixed together.

I'd bet this is good for about 50 posts or so........ Any takers?

To early in the season for full blown debate! 100-110, unless someone's knowledge on the subject is questioned, then 250+ with 30+ watchers

[nbrigido]

Part of the enjoyment and satisfaction of driving a race car comes from being on the fine line between control and out of control. The good race car drivers are the ones who can dance right on that fine line, or the "edge". But what makes that "edge" in the first place? I would argue the edge results from the tractive force generated by the tires. A real race car tire has a very peaky tractive force vs. slip angle relation. Getting the most out of the tires requires some serious skill to keep the tire operating right at the peak of it's tractive force.

Street tires, on the other hand, are designed with a very wide and flat tractive force curve. They obtain maximum grip over a wide range of slip angles. Boring. Effectivly this reduces driver skill requirements, which kind of defeats the whole point in the first place, no?

I will not question your facts, do not have the knowledge or skill set to do so.

The original purpose of my post was the highlight the cost control measures of the spec tires our series is using.

With costing surrounding racing increasing (entry fees, fuel, transport, hotels, parts) F1200 has tried to maintain cost controls for all drivers. Tires probably being the biggest one.

While many people racing, are not bothered by the increasing cost, there are those that can see this as the determining factor if the enter and event or not.

No matter what your skill level is, everyone gets on track WANTING to win, or come close. If you know that you don't have a chance, because you cannot afford to spend the money on a standard consumable like tires, do you lose the will to race? In the long run, it will effect each series, Race organizers, Tracks, Parts suppliers, and all those who make a living of F1200/FV

[G.B.]

I mean, show me one guy that did well in F1200 that also did well in SCCA? I bet it never happened.

How about Greg Rice? Two-Time F1200 champion & 4th at the 2002 Run-Offs.


The problem with the radials is they are designed for a street car, a formula car cannot get them close to operating temperature. Hence they last forever. But the grip levels are quite low and so they can be tricky to drive.

My beef with the radials is their size and the large hole they make in the air, meaning drafting is easy, especially at Mosport, hence they the nine-car trains. You can drive corners 1 to 5 perfectly and eke out 50 yards on the pack, only to have them draft right back up to you by turn 8.

[BLS]

My beef with the radials is their size...

What is the width and diameter? And does anyone know how they compare to the FST tires?

[BLS]

OK, found it:

Falkens F1200 (14 inch wheels)
F/R - 6.6 inch width, 23.2 inch diameter (195/60R14)

Hoosier CF FST: (13 inch wheels)
front - 6 inch wide, 20.7 inch diameter
rear - 7.25 inch wide, 22.6 inch diameter

If we used the CF tires we could use real racing wheels as well...
(and BJ beams, and disc brakes, and...)

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Originally posted by SpeedSport
Part of the enjoyment and satisfaction of driving a race car comes from being on the fine line between control and out of control. The good race car drivers are the ones who can dance right on that fine line, or the "edge". But what makes that "edge" in the first place? I would argue the edge results from the tractive force generated by the tires. A real race car tire has a very peaky tractive force vs. slip angle relation. Getting the most out of the tires requires some serious skill to keep the tire operating right at the peak of it's tractive force.

Street tires, on the other hand, are designed with a very wide and flat tractive force curve. They obtain maximum grip over a wide range of slip angles. Boring. Effectivly this reduces driver skill requirements, which kind of defeats the whole point in the first place, no?

Mike, Have you ever driven a race car at the limit with street tires? Based on your comments above I don't think you have. I have, and I would say that it takes way more skill to drive the street tire at the limit then it does with racing slicks.

The point that you continue to miss is something needs to be done to make the class affordable again. The cost are out of control in proportion to the performance, and original concept of FV. It is a blue collar class, for blue collar people. It is an entry level class. The level of preperation that you put into your racing effort is admirable, however, I think it just goes against the foundation of what the class was, and is, suppose to be. You are a big fish in a small pond, go get a real race car like a FF or FB, or FA, or DSR. Let the rest of us come up with some rules that make the class affordable again.

[Kim291]

Ok this may be a stupid question but why does the option of running on American Racer slicks compound #32 never come up as an option to save money on tires. They are about half the cost as the Hoosiers. I have used both tires, Hoosiers and American Racers.

Yes I know the Hoosiers are a better handling tire but much more in cost.

I was just wondering.

Kim Madrid
FV 29

[Amon]

Kim,

I believe the American Racers are 1-2 seconds per lap slower than the Hoosiers and that appears to be too much time to give up vs. the cost savings as a result. I only respond based on second hand knowledge, having never used them....


Mark

88' Citation 02

[Matt Clark]

Something else to clarify about the Glen times on the Last Chance weekend with the F1200 cars.... we were all on old Hoosiers per the FV Challenge rules. Mine were 2 years old, with about 7 weekends on them. While Matt was running VERY impressively, I think it would be slightly misleading to sound like it was an ideal weekend for FV speed. He did catch up to me late in the race after my car was cutting out hard several times a lap, and leaders were not hustling it at their normal 'National' pace. If Sibenaler or Varacins were there & running their normal paces, we never would've seen them after the first lap.

With that said, it would absolutely be awesome to reel in the tire costs, and the F1200 tires are a decent option. I agree with Michael V. about 'street' tires, but they do not look bad going around the track with the bigger rubber (and the sound of them screaming for mercy is pretty cool), and I don't think they're so treaded they look out of place sitting there.

I ask this then...... What about maybe shaving them? I know it would be a slightly higher price due to more work in them, but that should be better than what we pay now.

[CenDiv4]

We are allowed to run slicks? Since when did that happen???

[AVR_Shane]

Yeah, but those guys aren't pushing at the forefront of motorsport, they're not as serious as the front runners in the pinnacle of all racing seriousness - SCCA Formula Vee!

I mean, show me one guy that did well in F1200 that also did well in SCCA? I bet it never happened.

Greg Rice, Guy Bellingham, Steve Bamford

All three of these guys have race competitively in F1200 (and not dominant by any stretch), and raced competitively in National SCCA FV, all of them winning races in the "pinnacle" of Formula Vee

[AVR_Shane]

I ask this then...... What about maybe shaving them? I know it would be a slightly higher price due to more work in them, but that should be better than what we pay now.

I would hesitate to go this route...we in F1200 have a gentlemen agreement to not shave tires simply because it defeats the purpose a little bit. When you shave the tires, you shave off the life of the tire as well. So yes, it will increase cost, and it will decrease tire life, which are the two things that the tire is promoting.

[Matt Clark]

I would hesitate to go this route...we in F1200 have a gentlemen agreement to not shave tires simply because it defeats the purpose a little bit. When you shave the tires, you shave off the life of the tire as well. So yes, it will increase cost, and it will decrease tire life, which are the two things that the tire is promoting.

Right, and I agree completely on that point. However, how much would it increase costs and/or reduce life? I was thinking in the direction of making it an easier pill to swallow for the US guys that don't like the treaded tire concept. Kind of meeting in the middle?

[AVR_Shane]

Right, and I agree completely on that point. However, how much would it increase costs and/or reduce life? I was thinking in the direction of making it an easier pill to swallow for the US guys that don't like the treaded tire concept. Kind of meeting in the middle?

Those are answers I don't have, because nobody has ever done it.

What I am pretty sure about is all the US guys that don't like the treaded tire concept have never raced a Formula Vee with treaded tires in the dry.

The way I see, and I could be completely out to lunch, but there are unfortunately some people that can't look past the street tire aspect of it, which is preventing the potential savings of $5,000 per year for your average national FV racer. I could see a season cost reduction that substantial to bring a LOT more cars out of the garages.

Of course the regions can do whatever they want, but I notice the majority of regions running slicks for the purpose of staying linear with national series to keep the cars the same.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Mike, Have you ever driven a race car at the limit with street tires? Based on your comments above I don't think you have. I have, and I would say that it takes way more skill to drive the street tire at the limit then it does with racing slicks.

The point that you continue to miss is something needs to be done to make the class affordable again. The cost are out of control in proportion to the performance, and original concept of FV. It is a blue collar class, for blue collar people. It is an entry level class. The level of preperation that you put into your racing effort is admirable, however, I think it just goes against the foundation of what the class was, and is, suppose to be. You are a big fish in a small pond, go get a real race car like a FF or FB, or FA, or DSR. Let the rest of us come up with some rules that make the class affordable again.

Why do you feel it takes more skill to drive a street tire at the limit? Are they not designed to be more forgiving?

Those that know me well understand that I'm certainly cheap when it comes to racing. I have not gotten to where I am by spending money but rather hard work and a do it yourself attitude. The whole reason we even started building cars was we couldn't afford to buy one. I certainly would not consider myself a big fish in a small pond. I'm racing in one of the biggest ponds in SCCA, and probably doing so on a much smaller budget then most would assume. If I could afford to race a FF I probably would. With that said I'm I'll all for controlling costs, and I agree that tires are a major issue. But I also feel strongly that most of these efforts are all misguided. Sure, everyone says they would race more if such and such was cheaper. That logic has been around for ever, but never proven correct. The reality is people have X abount of money to spend on racing. If you save them money on tires, they will spend it on testing or some other developement. I know I would. Then those without will still be behind.

GB brought up a very valid point. The draft in our cars is already very annoying. Anything that makes that worse will just add to the frustration. Ask anyone in the main pack at the runoffs if they want something that would increase the draft and see what kind of answers you get.

No one wants racing to be expensive. It's not the tires, the manifolds, the shocks, the data systems, the latest trick part, ect. that makes it expensive. It's the competition, and there is no way to make that cheaper.

[problemchild]

Greg Rice, Guy Bellingham, Steve Bamford

All three of these guys have race competitively in F1200 (and not dominant by any stretch), and raced competitively in National SCCA FV, all of them winning races in the "pinnacle" of Formula Vee

Professional drivers Scott Maxwell and Lee Bentham are among many who came through F1200 on their way to higher forms of racing. Dave Watson and Jay Mason won National and ProVee races in the toughest SCCA Division. We even had one driver become a TV star and another a porn star. The biggest challenge from moving from F1200 is to tone down the finesse and be more aggressive.

Having shared the Autowerks awning for many years with Roger Siebenaler and Howard Landon, I consider current 6-time F1200 Champion Mike Iamundi in their league as one of the best FV drivers ever.

[David Clubine]

Shane, you are incorrect, there are people that don't like to run on street tires in the FF in Canada, they run because it is the only place to run here, there are those who also don't run there car at all, and there are people who like the steet tires. To each his own. But don't say everybody likes it, and doesn't complain. I get my fair share of complaints.

I for one, don't like running on street tires, so when I have time I run my S2, or go to the states and run on slicks.

Also it isn't all rose coloured (or colored depending on your country) glasses. The heavy tires cost more on brake pads, rod ends and suspension wear and tear. Is is enough to offset the cost? Wouldn't think so but the costs are there.

David Clubine