Is Pro Mazda Right For Me?

[Noah]

Usually if you have to ask the question the answer is no but I am going to ask anyway.

I have 4 years for karting experience, Skip Barber 4 day race school and advanced school. I was thinking of doing a season of the Skip Barber series before thinking of buying a car but I'm considering a Pro Mazda car for SCCA FA and the Formula Challenge.

Financial considerations aside (not that they don't matter but that isn't the question) based on my experience do you think I would be able to learn to drive and race safely in reasonable time. I can't find any information on the driving characteristics of the car.

I'm in my 40's and I'm not chasing an F1 dream. I just like racing.

[Keith Carter]

Pro Mazdas aren't competitive in FA.

[mikey]

Noah,
You really haven't given us much to go on, like how did you do in your years of karting? Or at school?

As mentioned, PFM isn't competitive in FA, but that doesn't answer your question.. on the surface, I'd venture to say that yes, you can learn to drive a PFM in reasonable time. That assumes you have a mature head on your 40-something year old body and that you're in reasonable shape physically to handle the demands of the car. Learning to drive it to its potential with all that aero is where the toughest part of the learning curve is.

If you want to be competitive, and start out a little easier than PFM, I'd strongly recommend Formula Enterprise. You could do a year or two in FE and then be in a much better position to move up to something like the PFM.

-mikey

[mousecatcher]

I can't find any information on the driving characteristics of the car.

Thanks to the rotary, it drives like butter. It's easy to drive if you can handle the aero.

I'm in my 40's and I'm not chasing an F1 dream. I just like racing.

Pro Mazdas aren't competitive in FA.

Ergo, you won't be "racing" in a PFM in SCCA FA, not against top talent anyway. But in regional races you'll find plenty to race against. (Also the Formula Challenge of course.)

[Noah]

Mikey,

I am not the fastest driver in a kart but I can stay with a few seconds of the quickest guy over a race distance and my only crash was the result of brake failure. I have a pretty good car control skills but could gain some time from not going into some corners too hard.

As for fitness I can manage a 30 minute kart race and I cycle at 100 miles a week. I am still working on some aspects of my conditioning but but overall in good shape.

I found the Skip Barber F2000 pretty docile and was up to speed very quickly.

I consider myself a mature 40 yo and not being competitive in FA is not a concern. The goal is to learn how to drive a complex high performance car and trying to chase down other people isn't always the best way to do that.

[Kazis31]

PFM is great car.
No matter what racing level you'll have a blast.
Set up neutrally very predictable.
If you raced shifter karts ,just get seat time.
You'll be fine.
I use mine as track day car and may be later when pick up speed
club season .
Safe and quick way to get around track.

cheers.
Maris.

[S Lathrop]

I am going to argue that going to a spec car series is not a good choice for anyone aspiring to advance to higher level racing. I base that on engineering in FA and Indy Lights over 20 years, in addition to my work in FV, FF, FC and FB.

2 things are lacking in the spec classes, experienced drivers and real chassis setups. The old men are very knowledgeable and while you may be a better athlete, you are not necessarily smart enough to beat them over a race distance. The masters will beat you on setup. They know how to make a car go fast and do it comfortably.

I have worked with drivers who have come up through the "development" classes of FF, FC and before that FSV. I have also worked with drivers who have come from the spec classes of Mazda, Pro Mazda and Skippy cars. The spec cars limit the setups to very few options. And some of the spec cars develop habits that are very hard to brake in a car that goes a lot faster.

For example, today, Indy Lights have a spec shock. The valving is restricted to 3 bump and 3 rebound cartridges. Each cartridge has 8 possible settings. For you guys who like numbers there are over 30,000 possible shock settings assuming that the 2 front shocks are the same and the 2 rear shocks are the same. For oval tracks, I use a different shock setting for each corner.

When a driver gets to the Indy Lights level he need to be very accomplished at evaluating setups. At the Indy lights, setup is the biggest difference between one car and the next. The driver needs to be a contributing member of the setup team. It is the driver who drives the car and it his but that is on the line, not the engineer's.

My favorite saying is that I can't teach anyone how to do shock tuning in a car going 190 mph.

My recommendation is start in the pro F1600 series and work you way up. Master the F1600 then go to the F2000. I have tested several drivers in Indy lights who have come from F2000 and they had very good skills.

[mikey]

that aside, i stand by my recommendation. the argument doesn't hold in this thread, when the OP specifically expressed interest in a spec series car. not going to debate your post, as I agree with it, but it doesn't address the OP's concern at all. I don't gather he aspires to advance in classes that require much more time and development. The great thing about spec classes is those of us with a j-o-b and limited time to spend on racing often prefer to race in an environment that does not reward car development and engineering as much as it rewards driver development. there's plenty of experience in the spec series, thank you very much.

[Kazis31]

You tell them Mickey.
Carry on chap.

[Kazis31]

Is Vettel the best driver or Red bull car?


.........................................

[Noah]

I agree with Mikey. Spec classes fit my aspirations. And I would think with everyone having the same machinery would mean it would be easier to share setups and also gauge where you are in your own progress.

And I am sure in all classes spec or otherwise, like in karting setups and very driving style specific. It's not like you someone can give you a setup that will make you fast. One thing karting teaches you is to "listen" to you car, understand vehicle dynamics and develop your own setups? Sure you can get a baseline from someone else. But setting up a car or at least being able to tell someone what a car is doing is a driving skill and one of the hardest one to learn.

And Mikey, I will look at FE. I'll have to look into operating cost vs PFM and class sizes in SCCA in SoCal and other possible series.

[gcoffin]

Actually at the moment, Vettle, the car and the team are the best. ( oh yea and Pirrelli help out as well)

More to the point what I have observed from the cockpit of my Mygale FC is that new drivers in faster cars are road blocks in the corners and after they try their hardest to screw up my corner exit they motor down the straight, brake early and resume being road blocks. And none of them are aware that they are doing this until the Stewards talk to them in impound.

I pretty much never see this problem when the drivers have spent some time running FF or FC with some success. Formula Ford teaches you mechanical limits, FC adds the aero. As for PFM really cool cars, but are there enough of them running to push you past your comfort limit so that you get really fast?

My final advice is stolen with pride from someone much wiser " never race in a class that you cannot afford to win in" . By definition PFM races in SCCA in FA and as such there is not enough money in the world to make it win.

[Noah]

OK. I'm going to bite. Alonso has clearly shown that he is the best racer this year. Alonso is driving a PFM in FA and getting results. Vettel is good. Very good. But Alonso is beast!

Leaning towards Formula Enterprise. Still need to do some research.

[Tiago Santos]

These are all very cool cars and I completely get the appeal of spec classes. I'll only mention one thing as I'd feel guilty not saying it

It's fun to drive these incredibly fast cars, even "by yourself" on a track day. But while you can get used to the speed to the point it doesn't really shock you anymore, racing wheel to wheel trumps everything. I'd take a very good look at your local tracks and see what the most popular classes are, with an open mind I could be wrong, but I bet you'd have more fun in a slower open wheel car in a nice, competitive pack, than blasting around by yourself. Of course, if there are a bunch of PFMs or FEs nearby, go for it!

[Josh Pitt]

noah,
my experience says do NOT buy the race car, buy into the race class.

this means only buy a car that gives you other cars to race in your area.
imagine how much fun it is to go race your kart, when you are the only kart in your class on the track.

I have raced/owned FF, spec miata, fst, spec 944. the choice is open vs closed wheel, after that, then just get a car that will allow you to actually race agianst others in your class. I fall in love with the class because of the competition offered, never fall in love with a car, as again you may end up racing yourself each weekend.

go check out scca races or results sheets and see what cars are are racing in your area.
then re-evalute your choice; you might change your mind on your purchase.

IMO karts are a great, raced them also, but I would not start out in a FA for racing cars.
I would go FF, or perhaps FC, or standard FM depending on the class sizes.
tintop would be SM all day long.
Josh

[S Lathrop]

I stand by what I said. My advice is especially true for someone aspiring to the top levels of formula car racing, Indy Lights and above.

But if you want to maximize your fun and minimize the learning curve then spec cars are definitely the way to go.

I don't think the Pro Mazda fields are larger than the F2000 fields. The F2000 fields typically exceed 30 cars. Some races have over 40 entries.

The other aspect of spec cars is there is a fixed cost structure where as development cars have an very large range. You can buy a $15,000 FC and start racing in the F2000 series or you can buy a Radon for close to $100,000 and run in the same race. Pro Mazda, the costs are much closer to the middle of that range.

The best performance buy for the buck is F1000. But that is a development class in its infancy.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm with Josh on this one. I don't care how fast or advanced the car, if you don't have anybody to race against it won't be fun for long. Sure it will be a kick in the pants to start with but you will quickly get acclimated and bored.

What is it that you are looking for that karting isn't delivering?

[TimH]

Daryl's question made me go back and look at the original questions.

If you just want to go faster, there are a lot of choices and FF is one of the last. Unfortunately, whatever you get you'll eventually reach a point where you'd like a car that's a little bit faster yet. Then you're on either the development or the class change treadmills, both of which become major sinks of money, time, or both.

However, you said, "I just like racing." If you want to race you need competition. That means Josh and Tiago nailed it - you need to buy into the most populated class in your area (though I would certainly recommend choosing something open wheel). FWIW you might also want to consider what kind of people populate that class, not just the cars. Most places FF tends to then be a good choice, but YMMV, and I certainly don't mean to insult many other fine racers on ApexSpeed.

Finally, many responders here have addressed something you didn't, because in our minds it's the reason we drive. How important to you is personal improvement? I thought that was everything, and told anyone who would listen that I didn't care about competition with anybody but myself (that of course went right out the door once there was a guy just a couple tenths ahead of me, or worse a brother only a couple back). Then you need to consider Steve's original advice closely, though I would add the old chestnut to learn mechanical grip thoroughly before adding aero. Bringing us back to FF.

[mousecatcher]

And Mikey, I will look at FE. I'll have to look into operating cost vs PFM and class sizes in SCCA in SoCal and other possible series.

FE is far cheaper to operate. But the car is also far worse. Of course every car is crap compared to the next level of car, and FE/PFM are no different.

There are no FE's in socal, however, so what's the point, if you want to race. Earlier though you said you just want to have fun and improve yourself, but still a class size of 1 is not fun for long.

You have been giving contradictory statements about what you want to get out of it. I suggest you make that decision with certainty before you pull the trigger on a car.

[DanW]

I agree with Mikey. Spec classes fit my aspirations. And I would think with everyone having the same machinery would mean it would be easier to share setups and also gauge where you are in your own progress.

And I am sure in all classes spec or otherwise, like in karting setups and very driving style specific. It's not like you someone can give you a setup that will make you fast. One thing karting teaches you is to "listen" to you car, understand vehicle dynamics and develop your own setups? Sure you can get a baseline from someone else. But setting up a car or at least being able to tell someone what a car is doing is a driving skill and one of the hardest one to learn.

And Mikey, I will look at FE. I'll have to look into operating cost vs PFM and class sizes in SCCA in SoCal and other possible series.

SCCA/CalClub puts all open wheel cars in Formula Alphabet, so if an FA or PFM shows up, its in the same run group as FV, FF, FC, FB, FM, F500.

The Formula Car Challenge-NASA gives the FM and Pro FM their own run group, at least here in NorCal.

Consider renting from one of the prep shops to see if you like it first.

Formula Ford - The Series in SVRA West usually has a run group shared with FV. There is very good competition in that group. They run on hard compound AR-133 slicks for cars 1973 and newer. Though the cars are not spec, they are very, very close in performance. The driver is the greatest variable in FF. A nice Crossle 32 is very nimble and competitive with cars of the era. Parts are plentiful through Neil Porter in Fresno. When you are ready to move up, you can sell it for near what you paid for it if you maintain it.

Most important - have fun!

[Josh Pitt]

Formula Ford - The Series in SVRA West usually has a run group shared with FV. There is very good competition in that group. They run on hard compound AR-133 slicks for cars 1973 and newer. Though the cars are not spec, they are very, very close in performance. The driver is the greatest variable in FF. A nice Crossle 32 is very nimble and competitive with cars of the era. Parts are plentiful through Neil Porter in Fresno. When you are ready to move up, you can sell it for near what you paid for it if you maintain it.

Most important - have fun!

BAM!
dead nuts %100 accurate on all levels.

yoiu wont go wrong with this group, or a crossle 32, and you will always have good fair competion to race with.
my crossle 32 was very easy to sell when i decided to move on, which says the class is doing well.

look at how hard it can be to sell some other openwheel cars................that says everything about the health of the class, and as the buyer of a car, remeber, you are now going to be the next seller of this car; get one that appeals to lots of people.

slicks that are ~$400/set ;this is the best deal in (car) racing i have found yet.
have fun
Josh

[S Lathrop]

I will second the recommendations to run FF. This is the best class to develop the setup skills that many drivers lack but are absolutely crucial to your success and enjoyment from formula car racing. Do FF well and you can drive anything you might want.

[ghickman]

I agree with Steve regarding FF. If you haven't mastered getting the most mechanical grip out of your formula car any "WINGED" formula car class you will be at a disadvantage.

Best performance value and some of the fiercest competition around is F1000 (FB). It also happens to be the fastest growing SCCA class.

[AjC Jr]

i attached the regional participation breakdown from the scca website for you to review.

I just finished my first season in Spec Racer Ford. Before that i raced karts and did some DE's in a Porsche. I really wanted to get into a open wheel car but after looking at the run groups in my area they seemed a little thin. Yes i could have race in the FF pro series but i didnt think i would learn much and felt with my budget i would be way behind after looking at what some were throwing at this series. And because of the FF series here in the NE most regional participation is down.

So looking for competition and something i can hone my racecraft i chose the SRF and may be one day i will move up to the open wheel car (love to drive a FB). I had a great time my first year racing and as others have stated pick something where you have others to race, its more fun and most of the people are so willing to help it will make the learning curve a little easier.

[Noah]

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my question and for the most part responses have been genuine, well thought out and helpful.

I'd like to respond to a few comments. Someone asked what is it that I was looking for that I couldn't get from karting. Well I have become 93% as good at karting as I will ever be which while not super fast its decent and instead of chasing the last 7% I have decided to seek a new challenge just as karting was for me 5 years ago.

A few people have implied that I don't have well thought out goals which is likely because I don't. With the exception of learning to drive a car with wings and suspension I have none. I am unlikely to progress to anything more powerful or race pro. This is likely my last race car so lets make it a good one. I love racing but it terrifies my wife. She's never even been to a race track.

As far as competition goes that's always good to have but I will spend a year testing locally and maybe race regionally, but the competition is with me and the car. There's always someone faster than you and always someone slower.

To the people recommending FF or going with a class with most cars I have to say it's not what I want. The first race car I ever drove, albeit for just 6 laps was a FF and I have the greatest respect for people who can get the most out of them, but its not what I am looking for in a car. We all look for different thing that why we are all here and not the Spec Miata forum.

I don't have the pressure of having to perform in my 1st year or ever so if it takes a while to learn a more complex car so be it.

So the short list remains PFM, F1000 and FE in order of preference.

Thanks again everyone for you guidance, advice and patience.

[racerdad2]

I have a racing buddy who's very proficient & fast. He runs FC & PFM. From what I've learned from him, I'd encourage you to go PFM. Just find a mentor to show you how they work & how to drive it. Invest in a good driver's school or personal coach. You'll have a blast & be safer going fast. It's your dream. Go live it !

[Josh Pitt]

I'd like to respond to a few comments. Someone asked what is it that I was looking for that I couldn't get from karting. Well I have become 93% as good at karting as I will ever be which while not super fast its decent and instead of chasing the last 7% I have decided to seek a new challenge just as karting was for me 5 years ago.

Noah,
I have raced karts, roadraced motorcycles, and roadraced cars, both tintop and openwheeler.
please dont take this the wrong way, but my experience is that the last %7, is where you likely will be at in ANY form of racing.

you will be doing the same thing, and quickly transition if you are like me, and then find yourself at that same %7 plateau.
its all the same 2 wheels or 4; if its a new challange you are seeking, maybe changing vehicles is just going to be a new challange for a short time, as you will quickly find yourself right where you are now, but with some other machine in your garage.........

just sharing what i have spent time and $ learning the hard way

[JerryH]

You have gotten some very good advice so far about starting in a slower class.

You said you got up to speed quickly in the skippy school. You also said you wanted to race. Why not do a few skippy races before buying a car? I'm not a big fan, but it is one way to evaluate yourself and see how much you have to learn.

To race safely, you have to be able to mix it up with whoever is on the track. That means learning how to go fast....but also how to handle traffic, etc. Learning that takes some time....and it's much harder to do in the higher performance downforce cars. A FF, CF, or FV is a great tool to learn how to go fast.... and how to race (not the same thing).

Now, if you just want a track day car that gets your pulse racing, then I take it all back.

Remember.....it you can't afford to write off the car in a crash.......don't race it.

Jerry Hodges

[Noah]

you will be doing the same thing, and quickly transition if you are like me, and then find yourself at that same %7 plateau.
its all the same 2 wheels or 4; if its a new challange you are seeking, maybe changing vehicles is just going to be a new challange for a short time, as you will quickly find yourself right where you are now, but with some other machine in your garage.........

just sharing what i have spent time and $ learning the hard way

I am not sure if I didn't state it well Josh but that is what I meant. The goal is to get to that point and when I do there are plenty of challenges left in the world to attack. It isn't important what the challenge is just as long as I continue to feel challenged.

BTW I'm at 93% of being as good as I can be not as good as anyone can be so I wouldn't say I have plateaued. The improvements simply come less often and are smaller.

On the 2 wheel front I road a supersport bike for a year and I just didn't have what it takes.

[SStadel]

If you were in CenDiv, I would tell you FE is the way to go. We have quite a few running here. I've driven the Pro Mazda and while a step up from the FE its not a huge jump especially when comparing costs. The FE has a ton of torque which is a lot of fun! Its also not something you equate to most formula cars. I couldn't find the torque specs on the PFM, but they do like to talk about its 260HP. Rotaries and bike motors are not big torque monsters, but they do make some sweet noise.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd like to respond to a few comments. Someone asked what is it that I was looking for that I couldn't get from karting. Well I have become 93% as good at karting as I will ever be which while not super fast its decent and instead of chasing the last 7% I have decided to seek a new challenge just as karting was for me 5 years ago.

Noah,
I have raced karts, roadraced motorcycles, and roadraced cars, both tintop and openwheeler.
please dont take this the wrong way, but my experience is that the last %7, is where you likely will be at in ANY form of racing.

you will be doing the same thing, and quickly transition if you are like me, and then find yourself at that same %7 plateau.

Exactly why I asked. I did the same thing. I imagine there are more than a few with the same story. I was very serious about karting trying to get a ride at the next level. I was competive at Grand National events, had many podiums and even some pole positions at IKF Regionals in thier heyday. I left karting to race "professionally" on the short tracks, didn't make it to the next level but did make a tiny bit more money than I spent. After realizing it was a repeat of karting all over again I decided to retire to club racing at the ripe ol' age of 27 for a life long hobby.

The talent and equipment quality at SCCA events is more varied than your top level karting program. You will find yourself quickly up to a respectable speed then having to decide if a new challenge is what you need. Only now you will be spending 10x as much on a car to still run just off the front runners and you'll be getting 93% out of the car inside of a season. Then what?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you get a car that you can race in FS and upgrade however your heart desires. When you feel like you are getting about as much out of the car as you can without considerably more effort/talent then bolt on some new bits to make it faster. You can utilize the same car much longer this way, you already mentioned the size of the fields/level of competition isn't a concern.

[gcoffin]

Noah

The challenge you will face is the relationship between mechanical grip and aero grip, at very high speeds.

Inherently we all pretty much understand mechanical grip.....we experience it every day. Aero grip not so much. So on top of all of the variables involved in mechanical grip,which are numerous, each one of these variables will enter into a non-linear relationship with aero downforce.

As if that were not enough we then control it all with a driver.......amazing stuff eh.

Some drivers figure it out pretty fast, others struggle, others just never get there. My observation over many years of involvement is that the higher up the food chain you start, and the older the driver is, the less likely/longer, it takes to be successful. Not impossible just less likely. Success is being a safe, courteous driver that is not a menace or a danger to themselves or those arround them.

Good luck

[El Guapo]

Noah,

You said in your original post that you just want to race. Why not take a look at Pacific F2000/F1600.

Not huge fields, but better than club races and the talent level is high.

Regards,

EG

[marshall9]

Remember.....it you can't afford to write off the car in a crash.......don't race it.

That is very sound advice, ask me how I know.....anything can happen. In some series, kids will take you out if you are faster, because they see no spares in your trailer, and they have three cars in theirs........just a fact of life

[mousecatcher]

So the short list remains PFM, F1000 and FE in order of preference.

PFM and FE are easy to rent in norcal. Do a day in each. I don't personally know of any FB rentals but maybe there are some.

PFM is more maintenance and of course higher operating cost but I think the value is still there given the performance.

One thing you might want to consider is that the PFM is far more adjustable. Springs, ARB, dampers, aero. That means there are a nearly infinite number of wrong settings and only a small range of correct settings. You may want a pro engineer to help you out for your first few outings at least.

F1000 is even worse (or better if that's your POV) since it's not a spec car.

FE is pretty much decided for you, there is very little adjustability.

So your affinity, or not, for chassis setup may help guide your decision.

[mousecatcher]

You said in your original post that you just want to race. Why not take a look at Pacific F2000/F1600.

Especially in socal F2000 may be a good choice.

[Ted Idlof]

This is a pretty old thread and my 2 cents maybe old news to you by now. But I don't see any specific suggestion in previous replies of test drives and serious consultation with World Speed at Sears Point. Telo Stewart is a straight shooter who will answer your questions and can put you in a PFM or an FS 2.0 for a test day (or two). Then you will definitely know the answer to your question "do I have what it takes"?

And to reinforce the suggestion that you pick the group for a reasonable car count and competition thru each row of the grid, consider the FCC series in Central CA. This series is open to any Mazda powered formula car; PFM, FS 2.0, FE and FM. Some very competitive guys up and down the coast, from SoCal to the Puget Sound travel here to race. IMHO, you'd have to go to Texas to find as good a group of Mazda formula cars.