FV Disc Brakes

[Bruce Livermore]

Sad to say this whole thing seems to have gotten ahead of itself. Hopefully it will be cleaned up before it is really "final" in the 2015 GCR.

What is in the crb prelim minutes is not the final proposal the ad hoc committee proposed. The initial versions of the proposal that were circulated were always written with reference to what would be lifted verbatim from the FST rules and what would be changed. At the last minute, one member of the committee was asked to draft an actual addition/modification to the current FV rules, fitting it in as best he could. It was assumed that the FV committee would chew on this some and send the crb our final version. Did not happen... The quickly written draft got into the prelim minutes even as we were discussing the changes that were needed. There are a number of places where the FST rules were not changed and should have been, and there are some other additions that were not included.

The committee minutes will be out fairly soon with the final version of what the ad hoc committee proposes be implemented.

Here's a brief, off the top of my head, list of the primary differences between what has been published and what the committee is actually recommending:

1. You will not be allowed to weld brackets, etc. onto the front trailing arms, only onto the beam.
2. You will be allowed to retain your existing 5 bolt rear drums (and wheels) if you so choose.
3. You will be allowed to use Type 1, 4 bolt rear drums, shortening the "snout" as required to make them fit the FV axle splines.
4. Wheels used on any 4 bolt hub (front or rear) shall be any standard steel VW Type 1, 4 bolt wheel. These will all be 15 x 4.5". Front and rear track limits are not changed.

Hope that answers at least some of the questions if not the concerns.

Bruce

[problemchild]

Sad to say this whole thing seems to have gotten ahead of itself. Hopefully it will be cleaned up before it is really "final" in the 2015 GCR.

What is in the crb prelim minutes is not the final proposal the ad hoc committee proposed. The initial versions of the proposal that were circulated were always written with reference to what would be lifted verbatim from the FST rules and what would be changed. At the last minute, one member of the committee was asked to draft an actual addition/modification to the current FV rules, fitting it in as best he could. It was assumed that the FV committee would chew on this some and send the crb our final version. Did not happen... The quickly written draft got into the prelim minutes even as we were discussing the changes that were needed. There are a number of places where the FST rules were not changed and should have been, and there are some other additions that were not included.

The committee minutes will be out fairly soon with the final version of what the ad hoc committee proposes be implemented.

Here's a brief, off the top of my head, list of the primary differences between what has been published and what the committee is actually recommending:

1. You will not be allowed to weld brackets, etc. onto the front trailing arms, only onto the beam.
2. You will be allowed to retain your existing 5 bolt rear drums (and wheels) if you so choose.
3. You will be allowed to use Type 1, 4 bolt rear drums, shortening the "snout" as required to make them fit the FV axle splines.
4. Wheels used on any 4 bolt hub (front or rear) shall be any standard steel VW Type 1, 4 bolt wheel. These will all be 15 x 4.5". Front and rear track limits are not changed.

Hope that answers at least some of the questions if not the concerns.

Bruce

What an unbelievable level of disorganization and miscommunication

It would be nice to know that such a major change to a 50 year old class was coming after due diligence, legitimate study, and true consideration. The CRB did not even know what they were voting on. It sounds like they got tired of waiting and flipped a coin.

[Bill Bonow]

Good or bad, that is a pretty big stretch from what's in the CRB recommendation and what Bruce has posted. As reported earlier in this thread, the next step is the BOD votes to approve the CRB recommendation (a guess would be this week?). I hope I am WAY wrong.

[Amon]

I guess I'll stay with my drums for now until I see a sure advantage towards moving to discs.


Mark

[Halifax]

I have four thoughts on this debacle:

1. SCCA and the petitioners have no respect for the heritage of what remains a successful class. This is a huge change in the class with little basis in real need.

2. Some people just don't get that you can't buy victory.

3. If FV is not sexy enough for you, go drive FF.

4. Unimproved cars are going to dramatically lose their value.

I drive an '82 Lynx/B. She ain't pretty, but she's a FV and she's a good, fast, safe, and reliable car. Remarkably, her brakes work just fine. I won't be converting her, and I won't race in some kludged mixed-machine class, either.

[Mark Filip]

I have four thoughts on this debacle:

1. SCCA and the petitioners have no respect for the heritage of what remains a successful class. This is a huge change in the class with little basis in real need.

2. Some people just don't get that you can't buy victory.

3. If FV is not sexy enough for you, go drive FF.

4. Unimproved cars are going to dramatically lose their value.

I drive an '82 Lynx/B. She ain't pretty, but she's a FV and she's a good, fast, safe, and reliable car. Remarkably, her brakes work just fine. I won't be converting her, and I won't race in some kludged mixed-machine class, either.

Agreed Harry except #2 you can buy victory. Well you can buy wins but to be a winner should not be about who can buy more whizzy bits. This change will make it easier for those lazy people with tons of money to sit back and buy parts. Part of the charm about FV is it takes some work to get to the front. I may not be the fastest driver but I can build and prep a car just as good as anyone and for me that's my strong area. I'm willing to search and prep parts and learn how my car works and in general learn how things work. Some of these new young kids no nothing except daddy or someone else can write a
check to help me to the front.

But you have forgotten Harry one of the largest SCCA class still "only has a few good years left" ! I call BS! Everyone keeps telling me you can't buy wheels but a you can
No new beams! BS you can buy them! You may not be able to buy turkey legs but if your to lazy to look for them or unable to use "Google" then maybe this is not the best class for you. I started 4 years ago and I already have enough beams brakes and parts to last me 10 years unless I crashed every weekend and if that happens maybe I shouldn't be on a race track.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have four thoughts on this debacle:

1. SCCA and the petitioners have no respect for the heritage of what remains a successful class. This is a huge change in the class with little basis in real need.

2. Some people just don't get that you can't buy victory.

3. If FV is not sexy enough for you, go drive FF.

4. Unimproved cars are going to dramatically lose their value.

I drive an '82 Lynx/B. She ain't pretty, but she's a FV and she's a good, fast, safe, and reliable car. Remarkably, her brakes work just fine. I won't be converting her, and I won't race in some kludged mixed-machine class, either.

1. Lots of folks respect history, doesn't mean they want to live in it. Some people don't want to change unless it's needed, others want the change simply because the new whizzy bit is desired. Hey, at least the parts are VW based and not Honda or Mazda. See there is some respect for the heritage.

2. Yes, you can. If you haven't, you simply aren't throwing enough money at the right places yet

3. Why not dress up the ugly girl when you can't get the prom queen?

4. Only more so if the disk brakes turn out to be a must have. Unimproved cars already are worth significantly less if they don't have all the bits required to be competitive.

You are driving a car that is more than 30 years old and this is the first possible significant change in its lifetime....I don't see a whole lot of room for complaint.

[Hardingfv32]

.... one of the largest SCCA class still "only has a few good years left" ! I call BS!

..... I already have enough beams brakes and parts to last me 10 years ....

Regional level FV is dead West of the Appalachians!

You have a 10 year supply of junkyard parts!

Brian

[Halifax]

3. Why not dress up the ugly girl when you can't get the prom queen?

4. Only more so if the disk brakes turn out to be a must have. Unimproved cars already are worth significantly less if they don't have all the bits required to be competitive.

You are driving a car that is more than 30 years old and this is the first possible significant change in its lifetime....I don't see a whole lot of room for complaint.

Good one ;-)

She ain't pretty, but it sure is fun to give the prom queens a bit of a run for their money!

One of the reasons I joined the class was the consistency of the machines over time. Since I'm a biologist and remarkably unskilled in the realm of mechanics, I'm really dependent on my mechanic/engineer and subject to the costs that go with it. Heck, I need a logic tree just to adjust my brakes!!

[Daryl DeArman]

One of the reasons I joined the class was the consistency of the machines over time. Since I'm a biologist and remarkably unskilled in the realm of mechanics, I'm really dependent on my mechanic/engineer and subject to the costs that go with it. Heck, I need a logic tree just to adjust my brakes!!

Now with disc brakes you won't need to adjust them, one less thing for your mechanic/engineer to worry about

I too was attracted to the consistency of the class, but it's all relative. Granted, this could turn out to be a rather large endeavor, and perhaps even sooner than really needed. However, it's the first major proposed change in decades. Eventually, you may wish it owuld have happened sooner.

Now, about those crappy gearboxes...how about a MK9?

[craigs]

Regional level FV is dead West of the Appalachians!

You have a 10 year supply of junkyard parts!

Brian

And this rule change should get people pulling their vees out of mothballs by the thousands.

[Mark Filip]

Adjusting brakes takes 12 min if your slow and if you have to adjust them more than once a weekend something is wrong.

Our gearbox are way over built for our cars and is a pretty darn good gearbox. Lazy people that don't address leaks and run them low on fluid or insist on running swoopy none lubricating oil are the only ones that problem as far as I'm aware. Am I missing something?

[Mark Filip]

Regional level FV is dead West of the Appalachians!

You have a 10 year supply of junkyard parts!

Brian

The east could show you how to promote the class if you guys would like help ;-)

Junkyard maybe but they were cheap good old German parts

[Tiago Santos]

This change will make it easier for those lazy people with tons of money to sit back and buy parts. (...) I may not be the fastest driver but I can build and prep a car just as good as anyone and for me that's my strong area. (...) Some of these new young kids no nothing except daddy or someone else can write a check to help me to the front.

(...) I started 4 years ago and I already have enough beams brakes and parts to last me 10 years (...)

Where to even start.. Sigh.

It's great that you found your strong point in prepping cars. What's not so great is that you think that is somehow more valuable than someone else having a different strong point (say driving.. or having a day job and paying someone to prep their cars.. I wouldn't know). But by all means, keep telling yourself that, I want you to be happy!

Please point me to all these kids with rich daddies running in FV - that would be a fantastic sign of progress. Except they don't exist. I think the kids you are thinking about, are working their asses off to get to the track and some of them don't even have daddies.

Maybe if folks weren't holding on to 10 years worth of junk, the rest of us wouldn't have to worry. But this brings up the same point as above with you being the race car prep master. It's great that you have all these parts at your disposal. But you fail to realize that we don't all live in the same part of the continent, that bugs weren't equally popular everywhere, that parts rust and die in some places and not in others and lastly, but not necessarily less importantly, not all of us have room to hoard a pile of rust.

Halifax, disk brakes being approved (maybe..) isn't the reason your 82 Lynx isn't worth much. Take a look at the prices of race cars in general and vees in particular to get a clue why. Keeping your drum brakes will not affect the value of your Lynx in nearly the same way as it not being a Vortech. Or it not being a recent Majors winner or Runoffs contender. Or not having the latest shock package, monster manifold and Ron Chuck motor or whatever the cool kids are buying these days with their daddy's paycheck.

Lastly, to show off my google powers, I found a picture of you guys:

[Daryl DeArman]

Our gearbox are way over built for our cars and is a pretty darn good gearbox. Lazy people that don't address leaks and run them low on fluid or insist on running swoopy none lubricating oil are the only ones that problem as far as I'm aware. Am I missing something?

Yes the joy of a dog-box transmission and the ability to select gear ratios that don't result in a 2500 rpm drop. But, I wasn't seriously thinking it would be a good thing for the health of FV as it would be a real game changer.

[Daryl DeArman]

You do realize there is a FV engine builder and a FVAdHoc committee member Quixote Racing Engines, don't you?

[Mark Filip]

Where to even start.. Sigh.

It's great that you found your strong point in prepping cars. What's not so great is that you think that is somehow more valuable than someone else having a different strong point (say driving.. or having a day job and paying someone to prep their cars.. I wouldn't know). But by all means, keep telling yourself that, I want you to be happy!

I never said it's more valuable nor do I believe that.
If someone is a amazing driver and has a day job (I hope your not assuming most of us don't have a job and not work our ass off to support our racing habit) and wants to pay someone to prep the car that is awesome. FV may not be the class for them, maybe they should compete in a arrive and drive program. Everyone keep complaining about adjusting the brakes. Are you kidding me? It takes 1 tool and you can find that tool in your grandmothers household tool bag.

Please point me to all these kids with rich daddies running in FV - that would be a fantastic sign of progress. Except they don't exist.

Clearly you did not read what I posted....that seems to happen a lot. I never said these kids run FV and that's my point. They start in karts with daddy writing a check then move into other classes and most of the time on daddies pocket because daddy thinks his kid is going to be the next F1 champion. Most young kids never learn how to set up a car, work on the car and understand why the car does what it does.

think the kids you are thinking about, are working their asses off to get to the track and some of them don't even have daddies.

So your saying a 14 year old kid is working his ass off and can buy and support a FC or FB car on his or her own?

Maybe if folks weren't holding on to 10 years worth of junk, the rest of us wouldn't have to worry. But this brings up the same point as above with you being the race car prep master. It's great that you have all these parts at your disposal. But you fail to realize that we don't all live in the same part of the continent, that bugs weren't equally popular everywhere, that parts rust and die in some places and not in others and lastly, but not necessarily less importantly, not all of us have room to hoard a pile of rust.

Again if you read my post, I have been in FV for 4 years and I had my parts after the first 2 without breaking a sweat getting them. If everyone is hoarding these parts how did I find them? The only people that have to worry is the people that are to lazy to look. Also I live in NH, probably not the best place to find old VW parts as the roads were always salted and I don't think I have seen a VW bug the is not rusty. In the Northeast we have very strong FV fields=many cars and many people looking for parts. How did I find them? If you need a place to put parts just rent a storage unit you seem to have a lot of money, or pay your prep shop to keep them in stock. Mine fit in a few plastic bins and I hang beams on the wall.

My Google results are more useful

http://www.volksworld.com/tech-guide...ting-brakes/2/

[smsazzy]

Okay, that last line was funny.

[Tiago Santos]

If you need a place to put parts just rent a storage unit you seem to have a lot of money, or pay your prep shop to keep them in stock.

My prep shop? Just.. wow. I'd love to understand where you got the impression I got a lot of money. I'd go back and do another point by point rebuttal type post, but I think the other thread just got a lot more interesting. EDIT: nah, just one more.

I never said these kids run FV and that's my point.

Hmmm..

This change will make it easier for those lazy people with tons of money to sit back and buy parts. Part of the charm about FV is it takes some work to get to the front. (...) Some of these new young kids no nothing except daddy or someone else can write a
check to help me to the front.

These were in the same paragraph. Guess I read that wrong.

They start in karts with daddy writing a check then move into other classes and most of the time on daddies pocket because daddy thinks his kid is going to be the next F1 champion. Most young kids never learn how to set up a car, work on the car and understand why the car does what it does.

Your anger is misguided and uninformed. The kids you are angry about have nothing to do with FV or with this discussion of what kind of brakes we allow in our class. They're not running vees, they most likely will not run vees after we change our rules - but if they did, that would be an amazing thing for the class. There is no shortage of rich people running in vees, them being older doesn't make it any more or less acceptable. Secondly, you clearly have no idea what it takes to be a successful driver in some of the bigger classes. "Most" young kids don't get to race in those, the ones that do, know far more about driving, setup and race craft than me or you will ever know.

[smsazzy]

I'm your prep shop Tiago. :-) My prices were pretty good too!

[Wren]

I haven't owned an FV in years and I definitely do not have a dog in this fight, but does anyone know how the letters broke down? Has anyone called a CRB or FSRAC member to ask? They won't provide specifics, but they are generally pretty happy to give overall information on about how many letters were received and about how they broke down for or against. Is this a case of the SCCA going against what the members want or giving the members what they want?

[Tiago Santos]

I'm your prep shop Tiago. :-) My prices were pretty good too!

Gotta be honest, you were my second choice, but I wanted to save money to buy another boat..

[smsazzy]

LOL! That's it, I'm sending you a bill for the frame up!!! :-)

[jhenn4716]

Please point me to all these kids with rich daddies running in FV - that would be a fantastic sign of progress. Except they don't exist. I think the kids you are thinking about, are working their asses off to get to the track and some of them don't even have daddies.

We actually had an Indy car team owner with his son taking drivers school in a vee earlier this year at BHF. So there's one.

[Daryl DeArman]

We actually had an Indy car team owner with his son taking drivers school in a vee earlier this year at BHF. So there's one.

I imagine that's more about getting the school part out of the way in the slowest, easiest car to drive at 85% of the cars' potential.

If the son does more than a few races in FV I will be shocked, not that it's not fun and cheap to drive when there's a whole bed of them, but if the son has any aspirations of climbing the ladder he shouldn't spend too much time there.

[budawe]

There seems to be some confusion regarding the status of the disc brake proposal so let me take a couple of lines for explanation.
The proposal has moved from the "what do you think" status to a 90 day period of formal membership input prior to submission to the BOD. This proposal is not a done deal until the BOD votes on a formal rule package.

It should be pointed out that the letter system is not a democratic process. It is a process to access membership's position on proposals, not a direct vote. Since there are no formal controls on letter writing, concise conclusions cannot be drawn from mere counts of positive and negative letters. This does not mean that you should not write letters. The next 90 days will likely define the future for vees and no one in the class should not write a letter. I say anyone in the class because the CRB and it's advisory committees often try to authenticate the letters. That means, having your friends and wives write letters probably won't carry much weight. Neither will your letter if you are not an active participant of this class. This was an issue on the "WDYT" letters just written. This does not mean that you can't write a letter as a observer of the class, it just means that it won't carry as much weight with the CRB.

A few pointers regarding letters: If you hold a competition license, mention it; if you currently own a car and are competing, mention it and remember, the BOD won't really see the details of this proposal until the CRB brings the issue to them so writing directly to the BOD while OK, may not yield much response.

[John LaRue]

The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.

Sign of the times!

[Wren]

This does not mean that you should not write letters.

Or else the BOD will have nothing to ignore.

Sign of the times!

Yep, no reason to use the process when threats produce better results.

I'm curious if a national tech inspector is still allowed to say something is illegal.

[Daryl DeArman]

Wren, do you agree that all letters should not be equally weighted? If one letter says "I vote Yes because discs are the bees knees" and somebody else votes "no" and goes on to clearly state a logical case against their approval with well supported arguments should they carry the same weight?

If I wrote a letter that said "I'm a SCCA member, currently race a STL car and I vote no on the FV disc brake proposal"...while somebody else writes "I am a 30 year FV racer and have completed 4 Majors so far this year, I am in favor of...."

Clearly this shouldn't be a strictly democratic majority wins type vote.

Yep, no reason to use the process when threats produce better results.

Care to expound?

I'm curious if a national tech inspector is still allowed to say something is illegal.

He/She can say whatever he wants, doesn't make that opinion binding. There's a process, right?

[Parker]

"I'm curious if a national tech inspector is still allowed to say something is illegal"

The phrase is, "Non-compliant". We try hard not to say this.

After this is said (generally after consulting folks with more specific knowledge of the issue) and the papers are completed, the appeals process starts. The bigger the "non-compliant" party, the larger the number of people to get involved in the discussion. It is not the tech inspector's job to make the final ruling or determine consequences.

I suspect lots of people on Apex are familiar with this process.

[Halifax]

Halifax, disk brakes being approved (maybe..) isn't the reason your 82 Lynx isn't worth much. Take a look at the prices of race cars in general and vees in particular to get a clue why. Keeping your drum brakes will not affect the value of your Lynx in nearly the same way as it not being a Vortech. Or it not being a recent Majors winner or Runoffs contender. Or not having the latest shock package, monster manifold and Ron Chuck motor or whatever the cool kids are buying these days with their daddy's paycheck.

Thank you for your sage observations.

[Wren]

Wren, do you agree that all letters should not be equally weighted? If one letter says "I vote Yes because discs are the bees knees" and somebody else votes "no" and goes on to clearly state a logical case against their approval with well supported arguments should they carry the same weight?

If I wrote a letter that said "I'm a SCCA member, currently race a STL car and I vote no on the FV disc brake proposal"...while somebody else writes "I am a 30 year FV racer and have completed 4 Majors so far this year, I am in favor of...."

Clearly this shouldn't be a strictly democratic majority wins type vote.

I completely agree with your point. When an overwhelming majority of the participants in the class repeatedly reject a rules proposal, I think that should carry some weight with the BOD. I will leave it to the BOD to explain why it doesn't.

Care to expound?

It's entirely unnecessary.

He/She can say whatever he wants, doesn't make that opinion binding. There's a process, right?

I genuinely don't know anymore.

[gbmetcalf]

Halifax:
I've seen your Lynx inside and out. At one time your car was equiped with the best parts money could buy. It was fast, good looking and forgiving. It took it's driver to many many national wins and numerous NEDIV championships. So your Vee is not all that far from a prom queen.
Mine on the other hand is in pieces after I looked at it when I picked it at the 50th and didn't like what I saw. I too am a driver/crew chief. I also have a new car I'm building that will be hopefully more comfortable for this over weight 55yo.
I am as staunch a supporter of FV as there can be, but I do see the need for options. I do not see ball joint beams and disk brakes as a detriment to the class. I see them as an option to expand the class.
I have no facts or figures to back up my opinion but I feel that it gives all of us a new outlook.

Just my humble opinion.

G.

Good one ;-)

She ain't pretty, but it sure is fun to give the prom queens a bit of a run for their money!

One of the reasons I joined the class was the consistency of the machines over time. Since I'm a biologist and remarkably unskilled in the realm of mechanics, I'm really dependent on my mechanic/engineer and subject to the costs that go with it. Heck, I need a logic tree just to adjust my brakes!!

[R. Pare]

One of the reasons I joined the class was the consistency of the machines over time.

Is 60+ years long enough?

While we would all like to be able to run the same car forever without ever spending $$ on upgrading, components become scarce/impossible to find, or ungodly expensive, and change is necessary. Some of us rang the "new motor" bell for FF for years before it got done, and lo & behold, the prophecies of doom for the class haven't materialized at all - the class is healthier now than it has been for a couple decades ( more due to the pro series than either the SCCA or the engine allowance).


IF the brake upgrade ( coupled with whatever is necessary for "equalization") can be done without obsoleting the existing cars, it could very possibly be just the shot in the arm that the class needs to keep going for another couple of decades.

[nhJohn]

Is 60+ years long enough?

While we would all like to be able to run the same car forever without ever spending $$ on upgrading, components become scarce/impossible to find, or ungodly expensive, and change is necessary. Some of us rang the "new motor" bell for FF for years before it got done, and lo & behold, the prophecies of doom for the class haven't materialized at all - the class is healthier now than it has been for a couple decades ( more due to the pro series than either the SCCA or the engine allowance).


IF the brake upgrade ( coupled with whatever is necessary for "equalization") can be done without obsoleting the existing cars, it could very possibly be just the shot in the arm that the class needs to keep going for another couple of decades.

What parts can you NOT get????
We can get brakes!!
We can get drums!!

Really ....
....and .... what is this perception of $15K as an "entry" into racing ???
No, FEW people have those $$$ to go big time.
We want NUMBERS and ... $5K to 8K gets you all the racing experience and fun that a newbie can handle for 3 years before going to a more expensive class.

If you want disks - go to FST!
If you want big tires - go to FST!

Why does everyone OUTSIDE of the FV class want to change the FV class????

This weekend, NER event, 2nd largest class is FV ...
and if the 4 novices pass class, we will be the largest.



John

[Amon]

"This weekend, NER event, 2nd largest class is FV ...
and if the 4 novices pass class, we will be the largest."



Great Job!


Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

components become scarce/impossible to find, or ungodly expensive, and change is necessary.

What parts can you NOT get????
We can get brakes!!
We can get drums!!

Really ..
Why does everyone OUTSIDE of the FV class want to change the FV class????

Maybe you need to read Richards' comments again and then tell us all where he said you can't get brakes or drums.

I seem to recall Richard going way out of his way to procure some drums. Then they didn't seem to fly off the shelf (FV racers are notorious for hoarding junk or waiting until the last possible second to buy what they need). I doubt he made more than minimum wage trying to help out a bunch of FV guys and gals.

I'd like a set of new german rear drums please, how much? Brake shoes, how much for a set of new Carbotech? Porterfields?

I don't know that everyone outside FV wants to change FV. I'd guess almost everyone outside of FV doesn't really give a rats' arse about what happens with FV. As to me, I used to race FV and there are several things I don't like about the class, changing some things would make it more attractive. I don't race FST because there are exactly 2 out here and that doesn't exactly make for good competition.

[BLS]

John,

You cannot get a lot of parts new. That is a fact. Some people are put off by having to purchase used parts. I think the FV participation in the NER is great, but it is not like that everywhere else. The participation numbers have been shown and it is a long slide with, IMO, many reasons, but it is way down in any event.

The cars we have today are vastly different from those of 30/40/50 years ago, changes were made, some mandatory some optional.

Are you still running a fan? It is an option. Disc brakes/BJ beam is really no different IMO.

Will disc brakes "rescue" FV? Not by itself. Is it a class killer? I don't see why. You are no more required to do it than to remove your fan.

I doubt I would do it, but I'm not opposed to it.

regards,
Barry

[nhJohn]

Maybe you need to read Richards' comments again and then tell us all where he said you can't get brakes or drums.

I seem to recall Richard going way out of his way to procure some drums. Then they didn't seem to fly off the shelf (FV racers are notorious for hoarding junk or waiting until the last possible second to buy what they need). I doubt he made more than minimum wage trying to help out a bunch of FV guys and gals.

I'd like a set of new german rear drums please, how much? Brake shoes, how much for a set of new Carbotech? Porterfields?

I don't know that everyone outside FV wants to change FV. I'd guess almost everyone outside of FV doesn't really give a rats' arse about what happens with FV. As to me, I used to race FV and there are several things I don't like about the class, changing some things would make it more attractive. I don't race FST because there are exactly 2 out here and that doesn't exactly make for good competition.

He did not say it, I was making a general comment.

I am just tired of people thinking they know what is better than the people that actually support the class.

John

[BLS]

Mr. Pare does support the class.