FV Disc Brakes

[Hardingfv32]

It is clear to see that all the concern about cost and the preservation of the original class design has been no long term benefit to FV. It is a failed strategy. FF has change engines and SRF is going to their third engine. Both classes are doing fine.

Maybe FV competitors are just too antiquated to make the right decision.

Brian

[veefan]

How does a vote on rules for FV affect the FST class? Does it harm them in any way? Does it take away from their field? Does it prevent them in any way from racing?

Ahhh, it does affect the FST class if all the FV parts horders start buying up all the ball joint beams...

[butch deer]

I agree, only FV drivers should be voting!

What about car owners that are not the driver? They usually pay the bills.

[Daryl DeArman]

You can bet I will give my input. Not only does this have an effect of bringing the two classes closer, I have a serious interest in building a dual purpose car that can run in both classes.
Dave

Further evidence that the FV disc brake / BJ Beam issue affects those in the FST class. The effect doesn't have to be negative.

[rbrowsky]

I also just voted YES

[jhenn4716]

Ahhh, it does affect the FST class if all the FV parts horders start buying up all the ball joint beams...

Are you serious?

[sracing]

Are you serious?

I don't think so, since the BJ beams are still in production.

But MAYBE it could be true. In which case, someone make me an offer for the 3 I have here. (Or even the 3 LP beams (spindle to spindle that I have left in stock.)

[sracing]

One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned. (Everything else has )

On many FV's when you replace the LP beam with a BJ beam you will increase the length of the car. (wheel base and probably body.) Most V's were built close to the limit on the rules, so you might have to watch for that. So now you have another issue. Does EVERYONE get to increase the wheel base or just those that go to BJ beams?

[BLS]

Jim,

What increases the wheelbase? Torsion arm length to spindle center? I know one of the tubes is slightly larger (I think it is) which would cause a slight increase all other things being equal, but that would be very small if anything.

How much does it increase?

Thanks,
Barry

[sracing]

The beam tubes are farther apart (and one is larger as you point out.) Some FV's have indentations etc. that the LP beam mounts into. Most people who have built FST's have just drilled new holes for the BJ beam with the necessary spacers. So the easy way of mounting a BJ beam will increase the wheel base by 1/4 to close to almost 1 inch. May not affect some Vees, but I don't think you want to implement a rule until it is determined who if anyone will be affected.

In FST we increased the WB by 2 inches (and the body by 10 inches.) One out of necessity (and driver room, engine room, etc) , one for appearance.

[BLS]

Jim, Thanks, understood.

[budawe]

I want to thank Jim as well. I often seek his advice.

I'm concerned about how this change will effect bodywork. Many cars, Protoform, Vortec and others carefully wrapped their bodywork around the existing link pin H beam configuration. We can all speculate how these cars will adopt, but the reality is that it will come with a cost.

[Hardingfv32]

...reality is that it will come with a cost.

Well then do not make the change. Your car can not be adapted??? Do not make the change.

The fact is the performance differential between the two brake systems will never be quantifiable. The performance benefit will have to developed in each competitors mind and a decision based on that opinion.

These are the same old concerns that have kept this class stagnate for decades while the other FV's of the world have progressed and flourished.

Brian

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks to Mike Devins for pointing this out: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...%20Minutes.pdf

After reading it I got to wondering what wheels will be permitted. I see them defined for link-pin beams, but am wondering if it will have to change for ball-joints?

[Hardingfv32]

In the CRB's recommendation to approve disk brakes:

Where are the wheels to be used referenced?

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... inutes.pdf

[Bill Bonow]

Looks like discs on all 4 wheels (front Ball Joint and rear) but no real definition of wheels to go with the 4 wheel disc brakes is being recommended.

I think this is moving forward faster than one might think

[SOseth]

In the CRB's recommendation to approve disk brakes:

Where are the wheels to be used referenced?

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... inutes.pdf

Brian;
The intention is for VW 4 bolt wheels to be used. The lack of clarity is mine and can easily be resolved.

SteveO

[nhJohn]

Brian;
The intention is for VW 4 bolt wheels to be used. The lack of clarity is mine and can easily be resolved.

SteveO

Not being familiar with 4 Bolt VW Wheels, are they readily available, new?, used? 4 inches wide? web page reference?

For the rear rotor/hub assembly, who makes them?, cost?

What is the weight difference of the current setup vs the new setup?
Link pin: Beam, brake drums, backing plate, brake shoes. cylinders, rear drums etc ..
VS
Complete set up with BJ?

Do the rims weigh the same?

John

[sracing]

rear[/B] rotor/hub assembly, who makes them?, cost?

A couple Chinese guys.. Available for about ~$45. (We sold them new for $42) Never had one break or crack. Calipers ~$40, Brake caliper bracket ~!$15. Rear drums (plus backing and brake components) about 16+ lbs each. Rear rotors 15 lbs each calipers 6lbs each. So about 16lbs per side drums and 21lbs for discs..

But why? You will never see a VEE on the track in rear disc brakes in the US.

This whole thing reminds me of when one of my grandfathers died. He was ready to go and in good spirits, with a great memory of life. The doctors and (some in the family) want to "save" him. He suffered for another 6 to 8 months, He paid a lot of additional medical expenses and lost a graceful exit...

Let it go. It has a few good years left without putting it through this mess.

[protoform]

the CRB has announced that Disk Brakes have been approved for the 2015 racing season.

[nhJohn]

A couple Chinese guys.. Available for about ~$45. (We sold them new for $42) Never had one break or crack. Calipers ~$40, Brake caliper bracket ~!$15. Rear drums (plus backing and brake components) about 16+ lbs each. Rear rotors 15 lbs each calipers 6lbs each. So about 16lbs per side drums and 21lbs for discs..

But why? You will never see a VEE on the track in rear disc brakes in the US.

This whole thing reminds me of when one of my grandfathers died. He was ready to go and in good spirits, with a great memory of life. The doctors and (some in the family) want to "save" him. He suffered for another 6 to 8 months, He paid a lot of additional medical expenses and lost a graceful exit...

Let it go. It has a few good years left without putting it through this mess.

Jim,
I am asking all the questions, because what was passed makes NO sense to me.
"To make the class more appealing" ??
I thought that was what FST was for. When I stared in Vee 3 years ago, if the 20+ competitors we have here in the New England region all had FST's, I would have purchased an FST.
But, if I did purchase an FST, and now the CRB tells me I have to spend $3000 and add more weight to my car for rule changes ... for what?? Either way, making a rule change to either class does not help anyone. It just costs $$$ to race against the same people.

I know everyone "says", no impact, you do not have to do anything". Been in this racing game for 40 years. Lets see what happens in 2015 ....

Just what we need, the Legends Cars guys taking more potential Vee guys away ...
Same tracks, more track time, less expensive tires, same rules year after year and 1/3rd the entry fee.

John

[Tiago Santos]

the CRB has announced that Disk Brakes have been approved for the 2015 racing season.

As I understand it, the BoD still needs to approve the CRB's proposal

[craigs]

But why? You will never see a VEE on the track in rear disc brakes in the US.

It appears that if you change the front to discs you "must" do the rear too. All or nothing type deal.

"Rear brake drum assemblies must be removed and replaced with one piece cast iron rear brake rotors with machined in rear axle splines."

[Tiago Santos]

Well, you'll see at least one car in the US with rear disc brakes..

[Amon]

Bill,

Is there a weight penalty for using the discs / ball joint beam and do you know if
the 1025 weight limit will be increased?

Mark

[Steve Bamford]

I thought I read 25 lb weight increase?

In 9.1.1.C.2., add: Minimum weight as qualified or raced, with driver: 1025 lbs; 1050 with cars equipped with disk brakes/ball joint beams.

[Mark Filip]

Kinda depressing that we had a yes or no vote and people are not even clear on what they voted for.

Also pretty depressing that people that have nothing or very little to do with the class were able to vote.

[BLS]

Mark the "what do you think" was clear enough, plus you could add your own comment in the reply.

I'm reminded of Mark Twain:
"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"

It is just a BJ beam and disc brakes as an option, with a fugly wheel. It is neither a death sentence nor a savior. It is an option with a 25 pound weight penalty.

[Mark Filip]

Mark the "what do you think" was clear enough, plus you could add your own comment in the reply.

I'm reminded of Mark Twain:
"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"


It is just a BJ beam and disc brakes as an option, with a fugly wheel. It is neither a death sentence nor a savior. It is an option with a 25 pound weight penalty.

I'm not asking questions about what was proposed in the "what do you think"
I understand what was proposed but many people that voted do not or have nothing to do with the class. Also they wanted a yes or no nothing else

[kea]

Also pretty depressing that people that have nothing or very little to do with the class were able to vote.

SCCA does that all the time. Sometimes the reasoning is that others would join that group because, "if you did .........., I would start racing that class". Never seems to have any lasting effect and just pisses off many of those already in the class. Sometimes those effected just leave altogether.

[Tiago Santos]

edit - nah.

[Parker]

"some of the link pin suspension pieces are becoming hard to find for the individual competitor"

For all those who are having problems finding link pin torsion arms, I have 14 for sale over in the classifieds section.


Also, where in the world did the external sway bar idea come from? Do people want faster/more fine adjustment?

[Mark Filip]

SCCA does that all the time. Sometimes the reasoning is that others would join that group because, "if you did .........., I would start racing that class". Never seems to have any lasting effect and just pisses off many of those already in the class. Sometimes those effected just leave altogether.

Exactly

[Tiago Santos]

The majority of folks outside the class that seem to have voted, at least if this forum is any indication, voted no. The proposal still went through, so either they didn't vote that much, or they weren't considered as heavily. Either way, works for me.

[Hardingfv32]

The CRB did the right think. The 25 lb. weight gain is the right compromise for those who fear some kind of performance gain. You can run the a lap simulation with the extra 25 lb. and see the loss in lap time. No way to quantify if the disk brakes add any lap time performance. In theory the tires should be the limiting factor and they have 25 extra lb. to stop.

Brian

[nhJohn]

The CRB did the right think. The 25 lb. weight gain is the right compromise for those who fear some kind of performance gain. You can run the a lap simulation with the extra 25 lb. and see the loss in lap time. No way to quantify if the disk brakes add any lap time performance. In theory the tires should be the limiting factor and they have 25 extra lb. to stop.

Brian

I am sorry, that does NOT make any sense ...
If you cannot calculate the performance GAIN how do set a value for a performance LOSS to equalize ??

Not only that .... has anyone calculated the actual weight plus or minus difference.
And that is what bothers me ... not well thought out with reasoning that scares me.

John

[problemchild]

Well, you'll see at least one car in the US with rear disc brakes..

For those that will insist on running with 25-30 lbs of rotating Chinese ballast, those awful rear discs need to be significantly overtightened, or the drive splines fall apart. With 10 mins of machinework to a genuine German 4-lug drum, you have the perfect compliment to a front disc setup.

[Bill Bonow]

Greg,

From reading the minutes, I don't think that the 4 lug rear drum is an option. The way I'm reading it, it's discs on all 4 corners (with BJ beam) or link pin and drums.

FWIW, mine are Brazilian (Frum) and have never had issues. These rotors are built to a standardized aftermarket "spec". There are many manufactures in many different countries (not just China).

[sracing]

FWIW, mine are Brazilian (Frum) and have never had issues. .

I don't think anyone has had that problem for a couple years have they?
I think at least 2 of my cars have the Chinese with no issues for 5+ years.

[Matt King]

What is the reasoning behind "all four wheels" or nothing?