FV Disc Brakes

[B Farnham]

A top of the line fully prepped link pin beam probably be right around the same amount.

[budawe]

My estimate was made a few months ago based on numbers SR quoted for a race ready ball joint front end, brake components on all four corners and adapters or brackets to mount calipers. Add at least four rims and probably some hardware and brake lines.

Like I said, do your own pricing. If you're as cheap as I am, you'll buy used stuff and prep it. But, what 's your time worth?

My biggest concern for the class is that this package will not really be a bolt on in the long run. If you can do the work, and maximize this change, it will likely become an advantage.

I'm not really sure that's what our class is about. You make the call.

[Matt King]

A reman Brazilian balljoint beam is about $400 and front dic brake kit another $250 from one local VW supplier I checked. With wheels and other misc. I'm sure it would be at least $1000 just in parts.

It's definitely not a simple bolt on for most cars (especially a Citation), which is why I was hoping there would be a bolt-on disc conversion allowed for link pin beams. I like the idea of having discs, but I probably would not go through the effort to convert unless I had to replace the beam anyway.

[rave motorsports]

We are an FST shop in the Midwest. I'm not sure about the wheels but they would have to be very expensive for us to not be able to do that much of the conversion for less than $2,000.

[sracing]

It's definitely not a simple bolt on for most cars (especially a Citation), .

Actually a Citation is as easy as most all FV's and you have a couple options. ie. You can continue to use the bellcrank steering with a rack OR standard VW gear. AND you eliminate the requirement for engineering out bump steer. We have an XTC (Citation front end) and the build was easier than most and results better than most.

But WHY? Keep FV as it is. Why add the cost, complexity and possible performance advantage/disadvantages ? Why possibly go off in another direction that is not needed? (according to posters here, you have plenty of FV parts left.) Some day you can convert to FST is that is what you want. FST will still be here and it is highly unlikely that FST will convert back to some jury rigged Frankenstein that may come out of this proposal.

We (FST) can race with you in shared sessions and get along much better than you sharing with SRF, FF, etc. etc. We are good for each other even if no compromises to are made to bring the classes together. (and the only compromise I think FST would even make is a name change to F1600. I don't even like that one. )

FST has been testing for 10+ years. It WORKS and keeps long term costs down (tires and parts (something that this proposal does not address at all. )

It seems like the ONLY thing this proposal addresses is that you won't have to adjust drum brakes. When we developed the FST package, simple brake adjustment wasn't even in the top 5 concerns. (but brake COSTS were; $20 vs. $200 )

There are lots of ready to race FV's out there, without having to make more $ investments and work. Keep them running. The problem is getting people to come to the track with them..

BTW, Something that should be mentioned.. Discs vs. Drums are not a huge competitive advantage. However someone who says they are no advantage, is blowing smoke up you butt. (at least with the Ghia/VW type package,.) They stop on demand, they will not fade, they work much better when wet and they FEEL like brakes and you don't have to compromise on when to replace since they are $20.

I haven't driven a FST on the track, but it is obvious the brake package is twice as good when I drive it to load it on the trailer.

[Matt King]

Actually a Citation is as easy as most all FV's and you have a couple options. ie. You can continue to use the bellcrank steering with a rack OR standard VW gear. AND you eliminate the requirement for engineering out bump steer. We have an XTC (Citation front end) and the build was easier than most and results better than most.

As simple as it may be, adapting the Citation bellcrank steering requires welding the linkage mounts onto the new beam, so it is not a "bolt-on."

[rave motorsports]

I own and have driven FST. It does stop better than my Caracal FV. I also vote for keeping the classes seperate. From our perspective there are other complications with a merger. My legal FST Evolution is a bigger chassis along with others who have lengthened chassis. I have a very nice inboard front suspension I really do not wish to give up. It doesn't bother us to not race Majors we have our own very competitive series at Major tracks. I don't really want or support a merger.

[B Farnham]

FST guys will be against any move that brings FV and FST closer together as that's just one less reason to convert. Just an observation

[problemchild]

FST guys will be against any move that brings FV and FST closer together as that's just one less reason to convert. Just an observation

Perhaps FST guys don't want to see both classes destroyed in some misguided attempt to bring the classes together. That would be my assessment.

Can someone explain to me where SCCA is in this process? In typical SCCA fashion, the mis-communication is very confusing. Will the letter I wrote 2 months ago be applied toward the current request for input or some previous request for input?

[Bill Bonow]

Can someone explain to me where SCCA is in this process?

I'm a little confused myself. We did a "WDYT" and as a follow up, we're doing a "WDYT" . Not trying to throw rocks, but just don't get the direction.

B Farnham, You may be surprised to know that most of us are interested in what will build the race group. We passed the "us against them" stage about 6+ years ago. The important factor is keeping a small bore open wheel race group. It won't be very much longer and we'll all be running with the aphabet group.

[grapefarmeral]

We certainly are in the minority when it comes to open wheel, now that SCCA is proposing another entry level open wheel car... I wonder what this Pro Series is going to cost the CLUB membership.

This horse has been so dead for so long, let's finally bury it. It's wonderful that the "purity" of Formula Vee has remained as long as it has. We are the only country in the world that has resisted major change. Look at the Australian/NZ cars, Irish, German and South African. They are all using VW parts and they are all called Formula Vee.. How much money and heartache has been spent on monster manifolds that never should have been allowed in the first place? There wasn't a shortage of manifolds , yet the rush was on to spend $1000 to $1300 for an old piece of bent VW tubing. If there are issues converting to discs I'm sure some one will engineer a fix. Hopefully at a reasonable price. Heck, the FST guys have done all the engineering, so it shouldn't be all that difficult.. and as long as we have good supply of the ball joint beams it should be a no brainer. Just figure a reasonable handicap (sounds like 25 lbs) if there is an advantage. I'd be willig to bet that the average car runs 25 lbs over as it is. Some of the chubbier (me included) will just need to have a few less beers and chips...

Personally I'd rather spend $40. for a set of front and rear pads as opposed to $400. No issues with camber adjustment in the front, no need for offset bushings, stronger "turkey legs", no backing plates, etc, etc. plus, not that it's a big deal, no brake adjustments...

[Bill Johnson 42]

Guys - sorry for the confusion here.

What we are looking for now is a simple yes or no on this specific proposal for disc brakes in FV starting in 2015, not input on disc brakes in general.

Towards the end of last year the FSRAC had intended to send this specific proposal to the CRB to go out for member input however, after comments made at the "tent meeting" at the Runoffs the CRB sent a general open ended question about disc brakes out for member input - no big deal. As you might imagine what we got back for member input was divided and all over the place. Obviously there were some just opposed to the idea, those in favor all had their own particular version of disc brake setups they wanted to see. We just couldn't draw any conclusions from the input we had.

The FV ad hoc and the FSRAC have spent a lot of time debating the pros and cons of disc brakes and largely with the help of the FV ad hoc this is the proposal being put forth.

Again apologize for the confusion but FV is an incredibly unique and historic class in our club and trying to show it the respect it deserves we are making every possible effort to let the class determine it's own destiny.

Bill Johnson

[budawe]

Rave motorsports said, "I own and have driven FST. It does stop better than my Caracal FV." Anyone who thinks this will not become a "must have" and add serious cost to maintaining a competitive vee, is ignoring the facts.

[Tiago Santos]

It'll definitely add cost to the car itself if the conversion ends up being a "must have" - hence the weight penalty suggestion that many of us have made.

Once the conversion is done, how does it add to the cost of maintaining the car? Honest question - I am definitely planning on converting to discs if this goes through and I'm wondering what I might have missed.

[sracing]

Rave motorsports said, "I own and have driven FST. It does stop better than my Caracal FV." Anyone who thinks this will not become a "must have" and add serious cost to maintaining a competitive vee, is ignoring the facts.

Yep. If we assume a BJ beam then; Better brakes, much better alignment maintenance due to far better ball joint suspension. Plus safety.. etc.

If you allow discs, they will be effectively mandatory. Unless you punish via weight. Then you will have the never ending argument of how much.. Stop this stuff.

In regards to my motive as to why I wouldn't support FV's with discs, I have made it very clear. Greg has summed it up well. "Perhaps FST guys don't want to see both classes destroyed in some misguided attempt to bring the classes together ."

FST has a good working proven package. It certainly needs no help from a conglomeration of technical bodies that may have vested interests.

This is NOT directed at the AdHoc committee. They have done a decent job given the authority they have. Any merge design by committee at this point will only make both classes worse.

[sracing]

Once the conversion is done, how does it add to the cost of maintaining the car? Honest question - I am definitely planning on converting to discs if this goes through and I'm wondering what I might have missed.

BJ beams are slightly cheaper and more readily available. (with needle bearings.)

Brakes are much cheaper and last longer assuming you are running a drum exotic (Porterfield, etc.)

I don't think anyone in FST has had to replace a caliper that "wore out." No one has broken a spindle, etc. So there are some parts savings, but not a great deal. The big savings in FST is the tire package, and that is not even being addressed.

[Amon]

Al,

Give up my beer and chips? You'll have to pry my 16 oz Miller Lite and chips
From cold dead Hand before I'll give them up!

Mark

88' Citation 002'
02' Citation 002'
04' Citation 004'
?? Zink z-18
?? Zink Z-18

[Halifax]

Optional or not, this is a major shift in the FV class. The beauty of FV = the heritage and simplicity and relative low cost of the class. I see all of these proposals as just more attempts to use dollars to inject asymmetrical advantage into the fields, as happened in the manifold wars, which expensively got us nowhere. Leave the class alone. 50 years of history and fantastic competition speaks volumes about the awesomeness of the existing platform.

Just my $0.02.

[Bill Bonow]

As I just voted no to disc brakes in FV.

However you feel, yes or no, vote.

www.crbscca.com

[craigs]

As I just voted no to disc brakes in FV.

However you feel, yes or no, vote.

www.crbscca.com

Yup. The link to vote NO is here:

www.crbscca.com

When they get the link up to vote yes I'll post it.

[jhenn4716]

As I just voted no to disc brakes in FV.

However you feel, yes or no, vote.

www.crbscca.com

Shouldn't that be a decision for FV drivers?

[Amon]

I agree, only FV drivers should be voting!

[Daryl DeArman]

Disclaimer: I haven't written a letter and don't plan to.

If another class was changing their rules which could have an effect on your class wouldn't you want to have a say?

[B Farnham]

Disclaimer: I haven't written a letter and don't plan to.

If another class was changing their rules which could have an effect on your class wouldn't you want to have a say?

How would the FST guys feel if they had something up for a vote and the FV guys swayed it one way? If it's not your class you shouldn't vote, that goes both ways...

[Tiago Santos]

Would I? Definitely.. Should I?

[Daryl DeArman]

How would the FST guys feel if they had something up for a vote and the FV guys swayed it one way? If it's not your class you shouldn't vote, that goes both ways...

If it doesn't effect your class you shouldn't vote.

Maybe FST needs to make a rule that if you take perfectly good FV unobtainium parts from your secret stockpile and smelt them into FST wheels you get a 100# weight break and no restrictor. Hey, it's only for the FST class so no FV racers need to respond to the WDYT request. Obviously hyperbole, but illustrates the point that just because rules are written for class A, they could have a negative impact on class B.

[B Farnham]

If it doesn't effect your class you shouldn't vote.

Maybe FST needs to make a rule that if you take perfectly good FV unobtainium parts from your secret stockpile and smelt them into FST wheels you get a 100# weight break and no restrictor. Hey, it's only for the FST class so no FV racers need to respond to the WDYT request. Obviously hyperbole, but illustrates the point that just because rules are written for class A, they could have a negative impact on class B.

How does FV going to disc brakes and a ball joint beam effect FST in anyway? You can make silly extreme examples but literally the only effect this would have on FST is closing the gap and eliminating one more reason to switch classes.

If this is handled right then I only see it being a good thing for the class. In the very least it's worth exploring further which would constitute a yes vote.

[Daryl DeArman]

How does FV going to disc brakes and a ball joint beam effect FST in anyway? You can make silly extreme examples but literally the only effect this would have on FST is closing the gap and eliminating one more reason to switch classes.

Exactly.

[dd46637]

You can bet I will give my input. Not only does this have an effect of bringing the two classes closer, I have a serious interest in building a dual purpose car that can run in both classes.
Dave

[Bill Bonow]

I agree, only FV drivers should be voting!

Mark,

Needing some clarification.

How would one define "only FV drivers"?

Do you have to own?
What if you just rent?
What if you have not driven, but you own car(s)?
What if you've been away from the class, how long of a time frame is acceptable?
What if you had a car in the past and are thinking of getting another in the future?
Does it make a difference if you run vintage?
How many races per year to qualify?
Do I have to race on various tracks?
What if I just love the class, but do not have a car at all?
What if I could not race anymore due to health issues for many years, but had made a significant contribution to the class (Lybarger)?
What if like Dave Dawson, I want to build a dual purpose car (multi class) in the future?
What if I have a business based around the class, but have never driven?
What if your car was an FV in the past and your thinking of returning it back to FV status?
I'm sure there are plenty more qualification questions that would need to be asked.

Finally, who gets to make the final decision on who "should" vote?

[jhenn4716]

Disclaimer: I haven't written a letter and don't plan to.

If another class was changing their rules which could have an effect on your class wouldn't you want to have a say?

How does a vote on rules for FV affect the FST class? Does it harm them in any way? Does it take away from their field? Does it prevent them in any way from racing?

[Matt King]

If SCCA only wants votes from some defined class of eligible voters, then it needs to find a better way to restrict the vote to that group. The current system does not support that concept. Most people without some vested interest in the class (as they define it) don't care and won't vote anyway. Heck, most people who do have a vested interest in the class won't vote either.

[problemchild]

You cannot say that this has nothing to do with the FST class when they are taking the proposed new rules from the FST rule book.

When the crunch comes, the hardcore FV crowd will show up, kill the proposal, and it will have nothing to do with the half dozen votes from so-called FST drivers.

[jhenn4716]

You cannot say that this has nothing to do with the FST class when they are taking the proposed new rules from the FST rule book.

We took an example of the FF rule when we proposed the head surround change. Should FF drivers have voted on that issue?

[Amon]

Bill,

To answer your question, I would think that current FV drivers and those who have a long
History of supporting (Lybarger, Jim Schings etc.) our class should have a vote. Those who
aren't involved with the class should stay uninvolved with the vote.

Mark


88' Citation 002'
02' Citation 002'
04' Citation 004'
82' Zink Z-18
78' Zink Z-18

[Bill Bonow]

Mark,

Thank you for the reply.
Being that most (better than 50%) of the FST guys have decades of FV history and support, maybe it would be much easier to simply list out those that you feel should not vote on FV subjects?

[Amon]

Bill,

You must have missed the word "current" in my sentence,
So please don't put words in my mouth.

Have a great day!

[rave motorsports]

Having set through way to many corporate meetings with everybody sitting at the table arguing their point there always comes a point where the top dogs have to make their decision. Wasn't it Teddy Rosevelt that said if he made 51% of the people happy he was successful? It's that time. The years of bickering can only be squelched if strong leaders make tough decisions then find ways to pull everyone back together. Just my humble opinion.

[CenDiv4]

I just voted Yes!

So over 3 pages we have 2 votes, sounds about right. This proposal right now has the same legs as various others in the past. Place a vote and stop posting the pros and cons.

Going to go vote for a new Governor for the State of Illinois right now too instead of talking about it...

[sracing]

Having set through way to many corporate meetings with everybody sitting at the table arguing their point there always comes a point where the top dogs have to make their decision. Wasn't it Teddy Rosevelt that said if he made 51% of the people happy he was successful? It's that time. The years of bickering can only be squelched if strong leaders make tough decisions then find ways to pull everyone back together. Just my humble opinion.

Excellent point. Every organization, group, company, etc. that was successful was due to a "intelligent benevolent dictator" that made the final decision. The committees were only for show . For the most part, the SCCA leadership has shown to only have 1 of those factors. (with a few exceptions.)

BTW,, I voted... (and I don't drive ANY class anymore wheel to wheel ) I voted as a interested party and a vender supporting both classes. I voted for what I believe to be the best path for FV. I think in reality this vote has only a very slight effect on FST and probably none in my lifetime