FV Disc Brakes

[Bill Bonow]

Copied from the FV board:

Disc Brakes: Ongoing discussion.
The Committee had been working on a recommendation to put before the membership to allow OPTIONAL disc brakes, ball joint beams, and 4 bolt wheels in FV. This recommendation was ready for presentation to the FSRC but due to the timing of the Runoffs, no FSRC meeting was held. In the meantime, two members of the FV community requested via letters to the CRB that disc brakes be allowed – as an option in FV on the front only. The second part of their request was to ask the membership if the ball joint beam should be allowed or to keep the original link pin beam.

Some members of the Committee feel the need to point out that the CRB response published in Fastrack asking for member input is not the same as the recommendation of the Ad Hoc Committee. The Committee still feels that if FV were allowed to move to disc brakes on two or four wheels AS AN OPTION with a specified weight penalty, using the ball joint beam only, and requiring the use of the 4 bolt stock wheels, this would be not only a safer but also more economical transition . Since the FSRC asked for Committee input on the topic of disc brakes, this brought up the question as to whether we should move our meeting date to earlier in the month to address questions or concerns before the FSRC meetings. No action was taken on this part of the discussion.

Whether members are in favor or against allowing disc brakes, it is time to voice your opinion via the CRB by simply logging in to:http://www.crbscca.com. It also helps if one addresses the questions: approve or disapprove allowing discs as an option in FV and should the ball joint beam be allowed or stay with the link pin beam.

[FVRacer21]

Okay - can anyone ID the country and the type of brakes this has with a linkpin front end (go to 2:19)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbPfDcmpxEo

ChrisZ

[gbmetcalf]

No idea but it was a sweet looking car

Okay - can anyone ID the country and the type of brakes this has with a linkpin front end (go to 2:19)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbPfDcmpxEo

ChrisZ

[Bill Bonow]

Pretty much a standard kit: 4 lug Ghia type rotors machined for link pin bearings with bolt on caliper brackets and Ghia 2 pin calipers. These run about $400. Most likely, these are the type Steve Davis tested a few years ago.

The Elfin is a very popular and very old Australian FV (equates to Lynx B age). They are big in Australian vintage FV.

[Matt King]

Pretty much a standard kit: 4 lug Ghia type rotors machined for link pin bearings with bolt on caliper brackets and Ghia 2 pin calipers. These run about $400.

Sounds like a reasonable option for a conversion. What's the catch?

[Bill Bonow]

What's the catch?

Heavy (15 + lbs.) rotors mounted on spindles known to break.

That's the # 1 catch. There are more, but not safety related.

[BLS]

There's a reason the 356 and eventually VW went to the larger spindles...

I favor the use of the BJ beam with discs as a FV option. The FST cars have already provided the testing. A pain to adapt to some cars, but it's not an experiment. It solves other problems such as parts availability, spindle strength, and better camber control. Will the option become a must have competitive advantage? I don't know, but I don't think it would be improved braking over a well set up drum.

Somewhere I saw mention of using the BJ torsion arms on the link pin beam with some modification. I believe VW went to a wider torsion tube spacing to accommodate the ball joints. I'm not sure this would be viable but would be neat if possible.

[Bruce]

Stronger link pin spindles are available and are legal for use at CIP1.

[budawe]

Spindle sleeves are available from Peak Performance that greatly strengthen link pin spindles about $60.

[DaveB]

ICP spindles are legal. LRE put up money to have them made, it took Bob years to sell the two runs he made. To many FV racers preferred to buy from CIP (Chinese Import Parts). They are large dia. spindles and don't break. (unless you hit a wall) I have been using them since they came out, never even bother to crack check. Don't have to use goofy spacers or tethers. Sorry I don't feel bad for tightwads that break spindles. Don't feel bad for people breaking drums either.

Dave

PS Richard said he will be making some when he gets his CNC mill up and running.

[Tiago Santos]

It's the first I ever heard of these ICP spindles. Good to know, I guess..?

[Matt King]

Here's some info on the ICP spindles:

http://icpcitation.com/partsfv.htm

I'm sure they are excellent parts, but probably not as inexpensive or readily available as the equivalent OEM balljoint beam parts. Still a good option for someone who wanted to convert to discs without a beam swap.

[problemchild]

Here's some info on the ICP spindles:

http://icpcitation.com/partsfv.htm

I'm sure they are excellent parts, but probably not as inexpensive or readily available as the equivalent OEM balljoint beam parts. Still a good option for someone who wanted to convert to discs without a beam swap.

Not a complaint, but the ICP spindles have no steering arms nor lugs to bolt steering arms to. I had a pair. They were excellent but there was additional costs and bother involved in converting to them.

[Amon]

I thought ICP was affiliated with Steve Lathrop?


Mark

[Stan Clayton]

Okay - can anyone ID the country and the type of brakes this has with a linkpin front end (go to 2:19)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbPfDcmpxEo

ChrisZ

South Australia

[Bill Bonow]

What ever happened with this?

The FVAHC minutes have been non-existent for 2 months (Dec. 9) on the FV forum.
The CRB sent out a note that said something will be in the Feb Fastrack, and that basically says the disc brake thing is being investigated.

Anyone ready to.........

[Tiago Santos]

The fastrack made it sound like they got some positive feedback.. I'll wait to see what happens with the proposal before flogging the horse

[grapefarmeral]

ICP spindles havent been made for 10 years

[Amon]

Good to see interest from those not driving Vee's!

Mark

[fvee62]

I say allow the option of running the front disc/ball joint beam front end. I have no experience with the discs, but from what I've gathered on this forum there is no performance advantage. The brake adjustment issue is way overblown in IMHO - if you have true drums and good shoes I've found the best thing to do is just basically leave them alone for the race weekend. Some people obsess with them to basically no real advantage and may actually be slowing themselves by adjusting the shoes too closely- especially Carbotechs which tend to expand when heated up.
The disadvantage of the link pin is apparently availability. Once the remaining good ones are used up/bent up people could then decide to switch over to the ball joint set-up.
In the mean time, if it appears those running the discs have an advantage mandate a weight penalty to equalize things.

[Bill Bonow]

In another WDYT from the CRB

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/April2014%20Prelim%20Minutes.pdf

[Matt King]

Bill, remind us what the Formula First guidelines are. Does this swap allow or require the balljoint beam? That is not really clear from the wording in the WDYT.

[Bill Bonow]

Matt,

It's just at the WDYT (What Do You Think) stage, so I don't think it's that critical at this point. The FV 1600 (my new name for FST as to not offend) front suspension rules are in the GCR at 9.1.1.H.2.1.

Dave Dawson found this link to the CRB minutes. I just wanted to post the link to spread the word. Trying to stay neutral and positive that FV and FV 1600 need to work together and build the small bore open wheel race group.

[BLS]

Matt, the way I read this request is for the BJ beam just as used in the FV1600. The way it is asked is for a "simple yes or no" to the rule set with the listed exceptions.
My take anyway.

[Matt King]

Matt,

It's just at the WDYT (What Do You Think) stage, so I don't think it's that critical at this point. The FV 1600 (my new name for FST as to not offend) front suspension rules are in the GCR at 9.1.1.H.2.1.

In reading that section (actually the Braking System section since that's what this is about), it refers to standard VW Type 1 disc brake components and allows the fitting of adapter plates to mount the calipers, so that suggests it could be possible to use these with a link pin beam and modified spindles.

Seems like it would be hard to form an educated Yes or No opinion without knowing more about exactly what the conversion entails. From what I understand, the balljoint beam disc brakes won't just swap onto a link pin beam. So following the FST, err...FV 1600 , "guidelines" requires more information.

[Mark Filip]

If you were going to move to disc brakes, I think it would be more beneficial to fit the ball joint beam rather than just adapting disc brakes to the link pin beam. The ability to adjust camber with the ball joint beam would eliminate the need for offset bushings and fancy bearings.

[Bill Bonow]

it refers to standard VW Type 1 disc brake components and allows the fitting of adapter plates to mount the calipers, so that suggests it could be possible to use these with a link pin beam and modified spindles.

Matt,

the current FV 1600 rules are pretty specific about using a ball joint beam. The front brackets are allowed to permit the use of drum brake ball joint spindles. The disc brake (Ghia) front spindles are so available, that I don't think anyone has used this option to date.

From what I understand, the FVAHC goal/idea is disc brakes require ball joint beam. This is what I think has been passed along to the FSRAHC and then the CRB. Personally, I think this is the best idea.

The only loop hole I see at this point is the "standard VW 4 lug wheels". In my opinion, that needs to be a little more refined as VW has made a whole lotta standard 4 lug wheels (hundreds?). Again, I don't think this is all that critical as this is just "WDYT"

[Matt King]

All I'm saying is that if the concept is to allow the balljoint beam along with discs, that should be clearly spelled out so people know exactly what they are saying Yes or No to.

[jhenn4716]

the current FV 1600 rules

You know I looked thru the 2014 GCR a bunch of times, I didn't see a FV 1600 class.

[BLS]

You know I looked thru the 2014 GCR a bunch of times, I didn't see a FV 1600 class.

Starts on page 362

[rave motorsports]

My vinyl supplier is gonna be sooooooo confused!!! LOL

[Stan Clayton]

Dave Dawson found this link to the CRB minutes. I just wanted to post the link to spread the word. Trying to stay neutral and positive that FV and FV 1600 need to work together and build the small bore open wheel race group.

So when is the official submission going to be made to change the name of FST to FV1600? I want to be sure to write in to support it...

[Bill Bonow]

I think we need to stay focused on this topic, which is the CRB asking a general WDYT on using FST type disc brake rules in FV.
Per the minutes, the CRB is looking purely for "yes or no".

Send it to: www.crbscca.com

[Stan Clayton]

I think we need to stay focused on this topic, which is the CRB asking a general WDYT on using FST type disc brake rules in FV.
Per the minutes, the CRB is looking purely for "yes or no".

Send it to: www.crbscca.com

So, who's fault is the thread wandering?

[SOseth]

The intent of what was submitted to be published was to allow the FRST disk brake setup only with the balljoint front beam with certain differences with regard to shock mounts etc. the CRB wanted a condensed version of the rule rather than print the entire verbiage in Fastrack.

I don't understand why it was put out as a WDYT. We have done that already. I think if the membership votes in favor of this idea then the CRB would adopt the proposed rule set into FV. Later today I can post here the entire language of the proposal so everyone clearly (hopefully) understands the rule proposal.

SteveO

[budawe]

Here's the text that appeared in the preliminary notes section of "Rules and Cars" on SCCA.com

"What Do You Think ?

FV
1. #13326 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Disc Brakes in Formula Vee
Based on responses from a previous WDYT published in Fastrack, the CRB is seeking member input on the following specific proposal to allow disc brakes in Formula Vee.
The CRB is looking for a simple yes or no to the following:

It is proposed to allow disk brakes, front and rear, following the guidelines set forth in the Formula First rule set with the following exceptions:

1. Front shocks to be externally mounted. The upper mounting point shall be to the H
beam at or above the top of the upper Hbeam tube, and a maximum of 1 inch inboard of the center of the shock tower. The lower mounting point shall act through the standard mounting point on the lower trailing arm. Spring shocks and linkage activated shocks are prohibited.

2. Standard VW steering box or direct replacement must be used.

3. Standard VW 4 bolt wheels or direct replacement must be used front and rear.

4. 4 bolt VW rear drums or disks may be used."

As I understand this is FFST/FV1600 guidlelines without rack and pinion and without inboard front shocks.

I strongly suggest that everyone cost this proposal before voting. My costing of this proposal approaches $2000 with one set of 4 lug wheels.

[Mark Filip]

That's 1 ugly wheel

[SOseth]

For Participant input: Specifications for allowing disk brakes in FV.

It is proposed the disk brakes, front and rear, be allowed in FV under the following conditions:

1. GCR 9.1.1.C.4 shall govern brake systems for Link Pin Beam equipped FV’s
2. Minimum weight for a disc brake equipped FV (front, rear or both axles) shall be 1050 lbs.
3. Front and rear track maximums to remain as in current FV rules.
4. The use of a standard VW ball joint front beam as specified in GCR 9.1.1.H.2.1 is required for use of front disc brakes in FV with the following changes/additions:
(to be incorporated into the FV rules section)

A. 9.1.1.H.2.1.1:
Lugs may be welded, brackets attached by welding or otherwise, and holes drilled in the ball joint H-beam to permit attachment of the beam to the chassis, and other components wholly or partially to the beam.
B. 9.1.1.H.2.1.2 shall read:
Front spring(s) are unrestricted except that the front suspension lifting spring(s) must be a continuous unit measuring 37.63” (+ or - .25”) in length, and be completely housed internal of the torsion spring tube(s). The trailing arm socket may be modified to allow a spring or anti-sway bar to be removed from the car without removing the trailing arm. At least one spring pack shall be retained as the primary spring media for the front suspension.
C. 9.1.1.H.2.1.4 shall read:
The use of any direct acting, tube type shock absorber(s). The upper mounting point shall be to the H-beam at or above the top of the upper H-beam tube, and a maximum of 1 inch inboard of the center of the shock tower. The lower mounting point shall act through the standard mounting point on the lower trailing arm. Spring shocks and linkage activated shocks are prohibited.
D. 9.1.1.H.2.1.7 shall read:
Installation of ride height adjusters to the H-beam allowing rotation of the spring pack. No cockpit adjustment of ride height is permitted.
E. 9.1.1.H.2.1.11 shall read:
Steering column may be altered or replaced. Steering wheel is free, and may be detachable. Steering mechanism shall be a standard Type 1 VW steering gearbox or direct replacement. Pitman arm is free. Tie rods must attach to the spindle using existing steering arm, a modified steering arm, or a suitable new or modified bracket welded to the spindle. Ball joints in the tie rods may be replaced with rod ends.
(See Appendix A for complete 9.1.1.H.2)
5.GCR 9.1.1.H.3 shall govern brake systems for disc brake equipped FV’s with the following changes/additions:
(to be incorporated into the FV rules section)
A. Additional requirement:
Standard VW, 15 x 4 or 15 x 4.5, 4 bolt steel wheels (or direct replacement) shall be used on any disc brake equipped axle, front or rear and shall be used if 4 bolt rear drums are used.
B. 9.1.1.H.3.1 shall read:
Standard VW Type 1 disc brake components must be used, including any standard VW Type 1 original or aftermarket direct replacement brake caliper constructed of cast iron material. Front rotor minimum weight: 13.0 lbs. each without wheel mounting studs. Removal of material from the caliper body is not allowed.
C. 9.1.1.H.3.5 shall read:
Rear brake drum assemblies may be removed and replaced with one-piece cast iron rear brake rotors with machined-in rear axle splines. Rear calipers shall be standard VW Type 1 original or aftermarket direct replacement caliper. Caliper mounting is free. Min. rotor weight: 15.0 lbs each, without wheel mounting studs. Standard 4 bolt Type 1 drums may be substituted for the 5 bolt VW drums on the rear axle only.
(See Appendix B for complete 9.1.1.H.3)

Appendix A

GCR section 9.1.1.H.2
2. Suspension Front Suspension:
The front suspension shall be standard VW Type 1 sedan ball joint H-beam front suspension or an exact replica of one of them and dimen­sionally identical. The following modifications are permitted:
1. Lugs may be welded, brackets attached by welding or other­wise, and holes drilled in the ball joint H-beam to permit attach­ment of the beam to the chassis, and other components wholly or partially to the beam. Brackets may be welded to the torsion arms for the sole purpose of actuating the shock(s) and/or external mounted anti-roll bar and shall perform no other function.
2. Front spring(s) are unrestricted except that the front suspen­sion lifting spring(s) must be a continuous unit measuring 37.63” (+ or - .13”) in length, is completely housed internal of the torsion spring tube(s), and fit unaltered control arm spring sockets.
3. Removal of the shock towers above the upper H-beam tube centerline.
4. Relocation of the shock dampers is permitted. Shock dampers and their actuation are free providing that no VW components are altered, modified or changed unless specifically authorized herein. Bump rubbers with a maximum length of 2 ½” may be used to protect the shock(s)/chassis from bottoming. Use of related bump rubber packing washers/solid spacers is free. Coil spring mounted (coil-over) shocks are not permitted.
5. The use of any anti-sway bar or bars, internal or external, mounting hardware, and trailing arm locating spacers. The anti-sway bar fitted as part of the standard suspension may be removed. Sway bars may not be cockpit adjustable. Front suspension Z-bars are not permitted.
6. Replacement of torsion bar rubbers with spacers of another material.
7. Installation of ride height adjuster(s), constructed for use with standard VW spring packs, to the H-beam allowing rotation of the spring pack. One (1) ride height adjuster per torsion spring tube is permitted. No cockpit adjustment of ride height is permitted.
8. Removal of the brake backing plates.
9. Camber/caster eccentric adjusting nut may be replaced with an aftermarket nut of different design. Caster, camber, and toe-in are free.
10. Any wheel bearings that fit the VW type 1 spindles and disk brake hubs without modification may be used.
11. Steering column may be altered or replaced. Steering wheel is free, and may be detachable. Steering mechanism is free, but tie rods must attach to the spindle using existing steering arm, a modified steering arm, or a suitable new or modified bracket welded to the spindle. Ball joints in the tie rods may be replaced with rod ends.

Appendix B

GCR section 9.1.1.H.3

3. Braking System
1. Standard VW Type 1 disc brake components must be used, including any standard VW Type 1 original or aftermarket direct replacement brake caliper constructed of cast iron material. Front rotor minimum weight: 13.0 lbs. each without wheel mounting studs.
- Caliper housing material may be removed on the outer radius surface of the outer piston housing to clear the inside of the rotating wheel. This metal removal shall only be to allow wheel clearance.
2. Any type pad material may be used on standard VW Type 1 brake pads.
3. Adapter plates may be fitted to allow mounting of front or rear brake calipers.
4. Cross-drilling or grooving of rotors is not permitted.
5. Rear brake drum assemblies must be removed and replaced with one-piece cast iron rear brake rotors with machined-in rear axle splines. Caliper mounting is free. Min. rotor weight: 15.0 lbs each, without wheel mounting studs.
6. The car shall be equipped with a dual braking system operated by a single control. In case of a leak or failure at any point in the system, effective braking power shall be maintained on at least two wheels.
7. A separate hand brake is not required. Removal of the hand brake and operating mechanism is permitted.
8. Brake lines may be of any suitable material, including steel braided lines.
9. Wheel mounting lug bolts may be replaced with studs.
10. All brake components must remain within the safety tolerances and minimum dimensions established by the component manufacturer.

SteveO

[dd46637]

I strongly suggest that everyone cost this proposal before voting. My costing of this proposal approaches $2000 with one set of 4 lug wheels.

I would like to see a break down of your costing. I have been racing FST for 8 years and have had to replace several of them and that sounds a wee bit high.
Dave

[BLS]

I'm going to guess that if you take the FV into a shop and have a fully prepped BJ beam with disc brakes installed, add the discs to the rear, and purchase 4 new 4 lug wheels, $2K would be a bargain.

If you go to the junkyard and start with an old BJ beam, do all the work yourself, and add the wheels, you're still going to be pushing $1K using new rotors and calipers.

You do not have to make this mod.