FV Disc Brakes

[Bill Bonow]

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...k-nov-club.pdf

Start writing your letters.

What Do You Think

FV

1. #11421 (Craig Swinehart) Allow Front Disc Conversions in FV (Additional Letters: #12328, Bruce Fuchiwaki; #12329, Bruce Fuchiwaki; #12369, Quinn Posner)

Note: As a result of multiple conversations between CRB members and FV racers at the Runoffs, and due to input from the Formula tent meeting, the CRB is asking for your input. The CRB is not recommending anything at this time and is only looking for racer comments.

The CRB seeks input on the potential for allowing disc brakes (front only) in Formula Vee.

Proposal:

1. Allow front disc brakes in Formula Vee.

2. If so, should the CRB allow ball joint beams to accomplish the installation or keep the original suspension?

Please send all comments for or against through the CRB letter system at: www.crbscca.com.

[Amon]

Bill,

Thanks for the heads-up!

Mark

[lucky13]

Discussion? Opinions?

I have heard the "Pro" side of this discussion. Anyone care to argue the "Con" side?

Matt

[G.B.]

This was all discussed at length in another thread about a couple of months ago.

Cip1.com has a special offer this month for a Link Pin Beam and 5-Bolt Wheel Disc Brake conversion kit, at $1,329.95. That’s just the front axle. The rear axle costs another $1,291.95. That’s a lot brake shoes, even at the price you pay for Carbotechs and I doubt there is any performance advantage.

The only way the conversion is viable is to change to the 4-Bolt Wheel and allow the Ball-Joint Beam.

And what happens to the rear axle: 4-Bolt Wheels, 5-Bolt wheels, Discs, Drums?

This now becomes a pretty major change all in one go.


In my opinion, if Disc Brakes are a must, then Formula First is for you.

[BLS]

Matt,

See here: http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

At this point we have several options: No change, stick with drums. "Kit" conversion brake of some type. Ball Joint beam with standard VW discs (same as FST).

We know what we have with drums

We don't know the ramification of a conversion brake kit (strong enough? performance advantage/disadvantage? weight issue?) but it would keep the current LP front beam.

We know the BJ beam will work (FST use), but it is heavier and requires fitting/modifying the car. It provides other performance advantages, easy camber adjustment, stronger less flexing trailing arms (less camber change when loaded), along with possible improvement in braking (slight to none IMO). It provides a stronger spindle that is not going to break without hitting something.

Personally, I think we should just allow the BJ beam. It fixes other things. Since we have rear drum problems I would allow the rear discs as well. I see no improvement at all in performance here.

Then we get to the wheel issue. Are the (BJ) 4 bolt 15x4.5 wheels strong enough? What is the weight penalty? UGLY to me. I consider the wide 5 slotted wheels to be rather attractive

With the BJ beam and rear discs we are just a motor and wheel/tire combo away from FST...

[problemchild]

This was all discussed at length in another thread about a couple of months ago.

Cip1.com has a special offer this month for a Link Pin Beam and 5-Bolt Wheel Disc Brake conversion kit, at $1,329.95. That’s just the front axle. The rear axle costs another $1,291.95. That’s a lot brake shoes, even at the price you pay for Carbotechs and I doubt there is any performance advantage.

The only way the conversion is viable is to change to the 4-Bolt Wheel and allow the Ball-Joint Beam.

And what happens to the rear axle: 4-Bolt Wheels, 5-Bolt wheels, Discs, Drums?

This now becomes a pretty major change all in one go.


In my opinion, if Disc Brakes are a must, then Formula First is for you.

Very well said.

[Bill Bonow]

Agreed 2, leave FV as is.

If you wish to have disc brakes, convert to FST.

[lucky13]

Matt,

See here: http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

At this point we have several options: No change, stick with drums. "Kit" conversion brake of some type. Ball Joint beam with standard VW discs (same as FST).

We know what we have with drums

We don't know the ramification of a conversion brake kit (strong enough? performance advantage/disadvantage? weight issue?) but it would keep the current LP front beam.

We know the BJ beam will work (FST use), but it is heavier and requires fitting/modifying the car. It provides other performance advantages, easy camber adjustment, stronger less flexing trailing arms (less camber change when loaded), along with possible improvement in braking (slight to none IMO). It provides a stronger spindle that is not going to break without hitting something.

Personally, I think we should just allow the BJ beam. It fixes other things. Since we have rear drum problems I would allow the rear discs as well. I see no improvement at all in performance here.

Then we get to the wheel issue. Are the (BJ) 4 bolt 15x4.5 wheels strong enough? What is the weight penalty? UGLY to me. I consider the wide 5 slotted wheels to be rather attractive

With the BJ beam and rear discs we are just a motor and wheel/tire combo away from FST...

Thanks for the heads-up.....not sure how I missed that thread originally but I feel a lot more informed after reading it.

[Tiago Santos]

I'm sure none of the FST folks would want FV to allow disc brakes. It would be a (big) step towards making FST redundant.

I'd love to run disc brakes and have already sent in my letter in support of that. Switching to FST isn't a real option and has no bearing in what I'm trying to achieve. I'm not writing letters out of spite or as payback for what happened 10 years ago, I'm interested in what I think will work for my class, today.

[BLS]

I'm afraid I don't quite get the any change requires changing to the FST. I like the FST class. Neat cars. But the competition is limited, at least for now. There is absolutely no reason that FV should not make changes in the best interest of the class just because FST exists. I understand that solving some of the FV challenges may slow the exodus to FST, what may exist. It's not FV's fault. FST exists for those who would like to go that route. They could co-exist quite successfully on the track IMO. Bill Bonow pointed me/us to the success of the Aussie series, where FV1200 and 1600 race together. I could easily see a series where the cars are basically the same except for the engine size. Large investment in 1200 stuff? Keep it. Wish to go the less expensive 1600 route, FST or FV1600 is your choice. Why the existence of one means the other cannot or should not have disc brakes is beyond me.

[grapefarmeral]

Why don't we just mandate a spec shoe.....maybe the stock shoe. No performance advantage and cheap..

[BLS]

.....maybe the stock shoe

What exactly is a "stock" shoe?

Spec shoes, OK. But it will not satisfy those that simply do not want a race car with drum brakes...

There are the 356 guys that convert to discs, and those that think they are crazy.

[Jim Nash]

To Tiago and others of the same opinion,

I am a FST owner, driver and constructor. I think FV should do what is best for that class. I think the air cooled VW classes are linked together more than we like to admit. When viewed by anyone not already participating, our differences mean little compared to our similarities. The ACVW engines have some benefits we can promote, but significant weaknesses that may not be viewed favorably by newcomers. The growth of either class does no harm to the other.

Jim

[Tiago Santos]

Jim,

Thank you for proving me wrong. I appreciate and completely agree with your post!

[smsazzy]

I sent a letter in support as well.

Long term, I still think we will eventually end up with 1 VW Aircooled class. Why not begin a small step towards that?

To paraphrase a historical figure of the past: Mr. Bonow, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
I kid of course with that last part.

[butch deer]

After running Fv for 50 years I have been running FST in regionals lately.I have run in four divisions(North East,Great Lakes,Cendiv,and South East) without ever seeing a double digit FV entry. I believe any change that gives the impression(true or not) that it takes a $1000.00 plus upgrade to be competitive will park even more cars and lower the divisional entries even farther.

[smsazzy]

Unless they can do math and see the long term savings.

I also believe that eventually those cars will have to park anyway when they can't find parts anymore.

It is time to proactively make some changes to address parts issues that have zero effect on performance. The weight penalty alone will make up for any perceived advantage.

[rave motorsports]

After spending the last 2 months strongly promoting my FST cars primarily in Colorado I can honestly say let's just keep both. Let the racing community decide with their dollars. That's what will ultimately determine the future of both classes. Level the playing field, let FST race majors and then let the $$$$'s vote. I can't think of a fairer way.

[Amon]

Butch,

Weren't you at the Watkins Glen regional last month? They had over 15 vee's
during the double regional and I believe they had close to that amount several
weeks later. The economy has hurt the FV and FST community which I believe
has led to smaller fields over the past several years. Most, not all FV & FST
drivers race in those classes due to economics, and the cost to race probably
makes up a larger percentage of our income than many classes. Subsequently,
when the economy is weak, people lose jobs, have their hours cut or have to
take a reduction in salary which reduces the disposable income and amount of
cars out on the track. I think that's why we've seen a stagnation in the growth
of both classes due to the lack of funds to race or convert to FST. Hopefully we'll
see a change in our economy at some point which will lead to the garaged cars
getting back out on the track.
The positive is that I've seen 4-5 newer FV driver's (under age 35) over the past
year in our area which is a good sign that we're attracting some younger racers to our class.


Mark

[smsazzy]

After spending the last 2 months strongly promoting my FST cars primarily in Colorado I can honestly say let's just keep both. Let the racing community decide with their dollars. That's what will ultimately determine the future of both classes. Level the playing field, let FST race majors and then let the $$$$'s vote. I can't think of a fairer way.

Curious that a large majority of the people against this seem to have an economic interest driving that stance. They either have a large inventory, sell FST's, promote FST or converted their car to FST.

[problemchild]

Those $1300 brake kits + shipping + taxes + labor for installation are just symbolic band-aids designed for the guy with the 65 Beetle street cruiser to show his buddies in the Sheetz parking lot on Saturday night. They accomplish nothing to improve safety or performance. The money (probably a third of the value of average FVs) could be spent on entry fees, or God-forbid, some spec tires. It would be just a criminal waste of resources to a class that cannot afford it.

Switching to a BJ beam assembly, with associated wheels, etc, will significantly change safety and performance, but also become a necassary update with development costs, etc. Again, something the class just does not need, anymore than sticky tires, monster mannies, wheel covers, or trendy rule-stretching tweeks.

If people want disc brakes and/or BJ beams, then FST is for you.

[jim_oseth]

I have responded to the CRB. Rather than reiterating my points again I'll just paste it in my post.

I would like to respond to the request for input for the inclusion of front disk brakes in the Formula Vee rule set as posted in the October Fast Track.

1. Allow front disc brakes in Formula Vee.

Based on the recent shortage of readily available brake parts for the currently used drum brakes, I believe it is time to seriously consider this. The most glaring shortages are backing plates and brake shoes that are suitable for racing.

2. If so, should the CRB allow ball joint beams to accomplish the installation or keep the original suspension?

I am aware of the discussion on this subject in the Formula Vee advisory committee. Their preliminary advice is to allow the disk brake conversion using the ball joint beam exclusively. There are cars whose design is not suitable for conversion to the ball joint beam (I will admit that mine is a primary example – so this would indicate my personal bias).

There are disk brake conversion kits readily available from large reputable aftermarket VW suppliers for the link pin beam that look as though they would work. One of the members of the advisory committee has already tested one of them. The one caveat with regard to the kit that looks most promising is that it would require the VW four bolt wheels rather that the traditional 5 bolt wheels.

There are a couple of issues to consider regarding this: There is a possibility that disk brakes would be a competitive advantage based on feel and reliability. If this turned out to be the case, then those with link pin beams should have the option to install them. There is also a possibility that the ball joint beam would be a competitive advantage based on it having more flexibility for camber adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no comparable solution for that with the link pin beam. Having not worked with the ball joint beam this is just conjecture on my part and both of these points are hypothetical, but I think worth discussing.

So, to condense and reiterate my points down to one sentence, as stated I would support the inclusion of disk brakes and the ball joint beam only if disk brakes were also allowed with the link pin beam.

Jim Oseth
Membership #288332

[rgu]

Here is my opinion but since others may think I am biased being a director of the Formula First Drivers Association I’ll let you know that up front.


I agree with much that has been said here. If you mandate disk brakes you will drive off the real low bucks crowd. If you allow disk brakes you should mandate the whole package used by FST. We actually (about 5 of us) spent real money selecting these parts that we use. While not of VW manufacturer, they are the closest we can come to that. I would place the weight penalty at 15 lbs over link pin beams. Since you trash the shock moose horns there would be little aero differences. I converted two cars myself and the install time on the beam was about 5 hours and I’m old and move slow. Steering is more significant but most can just use what they current have.
I really think our disk setup is cheap and strong and low tech. One of the Canadian FV1600 drivers came down to run a race with us. I noticed his snappy Willwood System. When I asked about it he said he was concerned that the pedal was mushy. As he applied the brakes multiple times you could see the red anodized calipers flexing. FST $40 steel calipers don’t flex.



I also like Al Spadin’s argument to mandate stock shoes. Get down to the lowest denominator. Problem here is how to enforce stock shoes. Best way to do that is have brake shoe claiming. If you suspect a fellow competitor is using exotica behind their drums--- a $100 bill will get you those shoes.
Going for the simplest solution for every innovation should be the goal. Examples:


A spec manifold like the Aussies. This could sell for 100 bucks. If people thought one might flow better they can buy 5 from SCCA and pick the best and they would be money ahead.
Spec tires: Pick a size pick a manufacturer.
Bring weight up to 1050 Bigger drivers
Allow wheel bases up to the FST spec. It doesn’t matter. Bigger Drivers.
Enforce FIA cockpit rules for both safety and Bigger Drivers.
Or just convert to FST, start your own series where ever you are, and bring some life and light back to small formula car racing.

[Mark Filip]

Can the letters be sent via email yet or are we still in the cave man time?

I assume I send to as I have never sent a letter in

SCCA Club Racing
P.O. Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400

[fezzic181]

Go here http://www.crbscca.com/

[Bill Bonow]

Mark,

As is post #1

www.crbscca.com

Click on it and be amaized

[Mark Filip]

Mark,

As is post #1

www.crbscca.com

Click on it and be amaized

I may not be able to read but I can adjust drum brakes

[Bill Bonow]

I may not be able to read but I can adjust drum brakes

I realized after posting that my answer may have been a touch "smarty-pants" type remark. Your wise use of the smiley faces made me feel much better.

I think you may be sursprised on how good and quickly an FST guy can adjust FV brakes. I'd gladly enter a brake adjustment competition (if invited ).

[fezzic181]

Curious that a large majority of the people against this seem to have an economic interest driving that stance. They either have a large inventory, sell FST's, promote FST or converted their car to FST.

All the parts from a FST can be bought at an VW supply house on the planet other than the restrictor plate. So I'm not sure how this is some black helicopter thing.

If you review every vee change thread and the discussions in the FST forums about the whys of each changed part what you will find is a break down of why trying to do only one part of a FST conversion just leads down a water fall of changes.

Sure people can grab one of the many available disc brake conversions but the wide 5 kits are all quite expensive and once again just leave you in a limited supply situation since they are made from all custom parts. To use the cheaper more common disc parts you end up needing a ball joint beam. Said beam is a whole cascade of changes to a car.

[fezzic181]

What my point above was supposed to be is the previous replies by FST promoters don't think the change will add more cars to VEE fields or FST fields. And field size is the real problem. Having brake parts available won't do you much good if it makes you the only car out there getting run over by Atlantics.

[jhenn4716]

Once again another thread on the FV side, hijacked by FST jockeys. Bill simply was trying to inform us of a letter to the CRB and suggested we offer our opinions on the matter.

For myself I would like to see more specific options laid out, with each cost involved.

Regardless of whatever is decided, disc brakes can not be mandatory, only an option at this point. If it is hard enough to find the money to get to the track, we'll lose even more people if they have to spend money on disc brakes.

And for the last time, we (FV drivers) do not need to be hear, read, or be told "just switch to FST".

[DaveB]

Big question here, is there a performance advantage? Possible answer, we don't know. I remember Stephan testing some sort of disc set up years ago, but on a test day. Before we jump on this massive change maybe some data would be in order. How about this rule change: Allow FV to run in FS with disc brakes. We could at least see what happens in competition, as many races have all or most open wheelers running together.
At this point without data, I will send a letter to the CRB asking them to not approve this change.

Dave

PS I know the FST guys will say there is no advantage but we are not FST's.

[B Farnham]

And for the last time, we (FV drivers) do not need to be hear, read, or be told "just switch to FST".

FST is a good concept but it may not be the future for FV, FV must do what's best for itself, not what's best for FST.

I could see the future being 1200's with the Ball joint front ends and discs.

If anything I could see FST being absorbed into FV if certain changes are made.

I would be in favor of discs as my generation knows almost nothing about drums. The key is to make the performance of the cars with Discs/BJ beam slightly behind that of the link pin/drum set up so that people aren't forced to upgrade to remain competitive.

[gbmetcalf]

I am one of the brand new B's got a 91 Mysrerian M2. I'm trying to get it ready for a 2014 driving school. I do not want the SCCA to change anything before I can get to school! That $1200.00 disk brake conversion would kill my budget. I have drums and plan on keeping them. The FST I'm building will be all the disk brakes I'll need. After my school if they mandate a change then so be it.

G.

[dd46637]

Letter sent. #12790

Dave

[B Farnham]

I am one of the brand new B's got a 91 Mysrerian M2. I'm trying to get it ready for a 2014 driving school. I do not want the SCCA to change anything before I can get to school! That $1200.00 disk brake conversion would kill my budget. I have drums and plan on keeping them. The FST I'm building will be all the disk brakes I'll need. After my school if they mandate a change then so be it.

G.

If any changes are made the discs and BJ beam will be an option, not a mandate. Good luck with driver school!

[Amon]

If my 52 year old memory is correct, the discs don't stop the car any better, however they're
more consistant and don't require constant adjustment once set..

Mark

[Tiago Santos]

If my 52 year old memory is correct, the discs don't stop the car any better, however they're
more consistant and don't require constant adjustment once set..

Mark

Yup. Braking performance (as far as stopping distance goes) is limited by the tires, not the brakes. If you can lock up your wheels now, you have all the braking power you'll ever need! Discs have maintenance and reliability advantages, which is why some of us want them.

I am one of the brand new B's got a 91 Mysrerian M2. I'm trying to get it ready for a 2014 driving school. I do not want the SCCA to change anything before I can get to school!

Changes made "now" will not affect 2014 anymore (unfortunately, some of us would say). I would ask you not to send a letter that affects FV in the future, if all you care about is running a school and maybe a couple of races before jumping to FST anyway. Besides, there is no way that discs will be made mandatory - only ALLOWED. You won't have to change a thing in your car, no matter what.

[Mark Filip]

If my 52 year old memory is correct, the discs don't stop the car any better, however they're
more consistant and don't require constant adjustment once set..

Mark

I must be on a different planet. I keep hearing people complaining about adjusting the shoes. On a new set of shoes with new drums (not 45 year old rusty drums that have been turned 12 times) I adjust the shoes 2 maybe 3 times then for the entire year I checked the once a weekend and only had to move them 1 time. If your using old turned drums with stock $8 shoes I can see a problem with adjusting and consistancey. I have said this many times before but no one seems to care, http://www.porterfield-brakes.com has a geat shoe for $109 a set $80 cheaper than Carbotechs. In my opion they work as good if not better. The first thing I said to myself when I drove a Vee was "holly crap these brakes are much better than I thought" I used to have a old Chevelle with manual drum brakes and never could stop that sled so I was a little concerned. Besides the brakes are the last thing you need to be using on a FV

I think key is to have good drums, good shoes and correct hardware and adjusters and there is no reason anyone should have a problem, it's really not that complicated.

I'm all about technology anyone that knows me can confirm it, and I like disc brakes I just don't see a need in this class.

I'm glad this would only be a option and not mandatory because I will continue to use what I have.

[gbmetcalf]

Yup. Braking performance (as far as stopping distance goes) is limited by the tires, not the brakes. If you can lock up your wheels now, you have all the braking power you'll ever need! Discs have maintenance and reliability advantages, which is why some of us want them.



Changes made "now" will not affect 2014 anymore (unfortunately, some of us would say). I would ask you not to send a letter that affects FV in the future, if all you care about is running a school and maybe a couple of races before jumping to FST anyway. Besides, there is no way that discs will be made mandatory - only ALLOWED. You won't have to change a thing in your car, no matter what.

Tiago:
I do not plan on voicing my opinion on this subject to the CRB as I see it I'm a newB and really don't have enough experience to make a viable decision. As for the FST, that car is going to be the "secondary" car. I will race my FV most of the time till I get comfortable.

G.