Why can't I talk about FV?Originally Posted by ajpastore
Why can't I talk about FV?
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Opinions are not welcome on the internet? News to me.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Opinions that degrade into name calling and insults are welcomed in a 5th grade playground argument.
Opinions that are informed and offer substance to move a discussion forward are welcomed in adult conversations.
Stephen Saslow
In the interest of understanding why this died, since there is a LOT of information in here, what is the overall TL;DR version of this thread so far?
Many people were in favor of the OPTIONAL conversion (with weight penalty), only if it was the ball joint beams with disc, ala FST. And it needs to be discs on all 4 corners, not just the beam.
Many people don't want FV to move an inch.
A conversion on some cars would be a lot more difficult than others.
Debate on actual cost of conversion. What is the delta after selling off the current spec parts for the "next gen" setup?
There seemed to be a lot of wondering how the vote broke down. Would be interesting to see how current racers vs. "outsiders" voted.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Also, as a side thought...... I'm surprised no one asked what parts were on Johans SAFV from post 350. Link pins with discs.
~Matt Clark
So if I say I like the term "establishment" instead of the "Z" word, then we're all good?
Trying to spin it back positive.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
IMO, outsiders are not your problem. I say "your" problem because the "hardcore FV establishment" that ensured that FV has lasted 51 years, and has had no significant reform during that time, remain committed to the "status quo". They let committees and internet chatter have their say, and then step in with letters and political might when the time is right, and make sure that FV stays the way that FV is. If you don't like it, you leave the class, or work in your localized FV area to do it differently. Right or wrong, it has always been that way, and is that way in many classes. What changes, is that the fringe players and newbies, pay their dues, and eventually become the establishment.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Well, for the record, I was just condensing the main things I saw repeated the past year in this thread, and that was one of the points, but I am curious as to the breakdown myself. Mainly just to see how many people actually voted & are active in this.
Anyway, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. And I'm hoping that I'm mis-reading it, but it sounds like you are saying that there are a select few power players that are controlling things, no matter what the popular vote or sentiment is. That wouldn't surprise me, since that's the way life works.
~Matt Clark
NO, I'm saying the popular vote is directly connected to the power players. Those power players earned their place by earning the trust of their customers, their membership, the SCCA officials, etc. When you don't agree with the outcome, they're an "old boys club". When you agree with the outcome, they're the" voice of reason, experience, and concern for the future of FV".
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
YAAAAWWWWNNNNNN.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Gotcha.
~Matt Clark
I think that despite these so called power players, the disc brake thing had a good chance of going through and had decent support among actual FV drivers. The problem was everyone fumbled for almost a year, then the CRB tried to rush proposals through at the last minute to get the rules changed in time for 2015. The committee did their best, but couldn't stop the CRB from publishing half-baked rule proposals that even the committee hadn't fully agreed on. This was followed by incomplete minutes published in fastrack, etc. The folks that were against it to begin with weren't impressed, the guys that were on the fence were now strongly against it and even some of us who wanted disc brakes sent in letters to refuse the changes. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who just gave up half way through:
CRB: "ok guys, what do you think of disc brakes?"
ME: (long letter)yeah, you know, it'd be alright.
CRB: "ah, nice, seems like people want this! Show of hands, YES or NO?"
ME: huh.. YES!
CRB: "Cool! So we're gonna get a proposal thing... Hang tight"
...
CRB: "SHOOTGOTTAHURRYIFELLASLEEPHERESTHEPROPOSALYESORNO ?"
ME: *facepalm*
I am going to hate myself for this, but here it goes.
Reading through all these posts, seems like some people are thinking "whats best for me" "what looks better" "What is perceived to be better"
If there is any hope of FV surviving long term, everyone NEEDS to be on the same page to ensure FV/F1200 maintains the essential roots.
We are entry level racing, the minute everyone starts to splinter, the entire FV/F1200 organization starts to suffer.
It will not help any when rules are put in place that will allow racers with more $$$ to have an advantage, because they can buy better parts, have a better modification to the car, run an optional set-up (ala Big Manifolds).
If we all get together and start looking at solutions, the entire organization will benefit.
If i want to go faster, and driver a race car that looks more like a race car, I will make the jump to FF/F1600. More money, a lot more time and skill to set-up, weekend expenses just went trough the roof. Being competitive will be based on time/knowledge and $$$$.
Is it tires, engines, brakes..what ever it is, it needs to be done for the right reason, to benefit the series and address a true issue.
The goal is to get more racers out to the track, keep costs down, run our own track time. Sorry do not have the magic combination to make it happen.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
Noel,
Your perspective is right on...but common sense will never prevail here..
Al
PS I found it interesting the board thanked everyone that sent letters... I sent one but didn't get thanked. Is someone culling the letters? Did anyone else send a letter and not get acknowledged?
Interesting, I sent 3, got the instant email thank you reply, but not the one after the vote.
Noel, I like what you stated.
John
John Ferreira
FV 15
Noel is spot on.
I think everybody needs to step back and look at this discussion more globally. To me, these discussions end up in the same category, whether they are regarding disc brakes, ball joint beams, tires, steering racks, etc. This is not simply a discussion about disc brakes. Until the group (and it needs to be the current group) determines its vision for the future, or purpose, of the class, these issues will never be resolved. Is changing to disc brakes going to improve the competition? Is it going to make it easier for less experienced participants? Is that why it is being discussed? What is the purpose of the proposal?
We basically have four groups of racers to deal with. These groups are dynamic, as depending on the particular issue they can merge down into two groups. The first group is the front running veterans of the class. Many, if not most, drivers in this group are National level drivers. The second group is the group of racers who regularly attend races, but do not typically compete for the class win. This is the largest group, and is comprised primarily of Regional drivers and lower level National drivers. These two groups comprise the “Haves”. The drivers in this group are probably reading this thread.
The “Haves” are that for two main reasons. They have committed to spending, in some cases a large amount of, time and money to get to this level. First, they have a spares package of the currently approved parts. These are tires, extra engines / engine parts, wheels, beams, brakes, steering boxes, etc. Their spares have been built up over years of collecting parts. Second, they’ve tested and developed their cars under the current regulations. Obsoleting any of these parts or regulations hurts this group and takes away advantages they have worked very hard to achieve. Change typically hurts this group.
The remaining two groups are the “Have Nots”. The third group is the Formula Vee car owners who are not regularly competing in events for whatever reason. They may be former “regulars”, or they could be individuals who purchased cars and have not yet been able to get the cars back on the track. There are a wide variety of reasons for this, money certainly not withstanding. And finally, the fourth group is composed of those potential new racers who we are trying to encourage to join our class. These last two groups typically do not have a voice in the issues of the class, yet they are the ones some of these decisions are supposedly being made for. The “Have Nots” are those we are trying to draw in, or back in, to grow the participation numbers in the class. They have not invested as much time and money in parts and development yet. They have less to lose from change. However, this group only benefits from the changes if those changes make it easier, or less expensive, for them to start participating regularly the class. The problem is that proposed changes made for their benefit must draw in these new participants, or retain the borderline participants. Otherwise, the effort is wasted. The impact can sometimes be very hard to quantify.
These are not easy decisions. The group cannot afford to alienate the drivers who are currently participating on a regular basis. However, what is the purpose of the particular proposed change? Is it to create closer competition within the current group of drivers, or to grow the class? Again, I believe the group first needs to determine its vision for the class. Is it to exist only for the benefit of the current group? Or is the current group willing to give up a little to grow the class into the next generation? Make no mistake, if changes are made for the purpose of growing the class, it means some of the current group of racers will have to give up a little. Or has this question already been answered? Should Formula Vee exist “as is” only for the current group, and Formula First (with all of its changes) for the future? What are everybody’s thoughts?
.
Last edited by jpetillo; 10.29.14 at 11:53 PM. Reason: The post was not representative of what I feel should be posted on ApexSpeed so I retracted it.
I sent a couple letters and never got a thank you. I did get a "we are looking into it and stay tuned" then the abortion of a proposal came out. Oh well I just want to race whatever the package is I'll set the up Mysterian for it.
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
It seems like every subject has some short of hissy fit going on between a couple of people? why, because someone does not agree with someone else. So be it. it is life.
We would all love to call up, PEP boys, JEGS, Canadian Tire and order a Crate engine for our Vee's, or a complete front beam, guess what it is not going to happen.
Part's, There are probably 5x's more cars sitting in Barns, Garage's, Sheds, than are out to the track every given year. Lets Work at getting them out, instead of putting more in.
The more we go in different direction, less chance that series "SUPPORT" and I mean engine builders, parts suppliers, tire manufacturers, are going to be around to "SUPPORT" These are businesses.
Tell people the Series is Strong
If they can't/won't race get these cars up for sale. Let others in or parts cars.
Understand Why people are not coming out.
How do we get them out.
We want our own track time, then we need more cars out there and to do that, we have to make things easy, simple, in-expensive, and no politics.
The other issue is there is no common voice for the group. It is difficult for anyone to agree on anything when no one is taking the "vote" moving it forward with the group behind them.
Just a thought, How do you think CIP or CIP1 would act, if someone was to go to them as a group and say we have 500+ cars across NA that are willing to support you parts services. Can you find a beam for us, make a beam for us, source the beam for us. Here is our specs.
BTW, I am not starting the SPEC Tire / Radial Tire thread this year...
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
And I thought Mr. Ed died a long time ago. So much for the "beating a dead horse" theory.
A good forum is a form of communication, information, and entertainment.
You guys are making it sound as if discussion/debate on public forums is part of some decision-making process. It is not. What it does do, is provide information and perspective to those undecided, uninformed, or ignorant about a situation. The ongoing discussion has a cumulative effect and can move people's views over time, and thereby, effect change.
Rather than moan and groan about the same rehash of topics, we should appreciate that some of these topics that had brief exchanges 5 years ago, are now going on for pages and pages. Those blindingly opposed or in favor of specific changes are not changing their views, but alot of people in between may be. So a potential change that only had the support of 25% of the community may now have 45-50% support and is that much closer to happening through the actual decision-making process.
"Shooting the messenger" just shuts down that communication, information, and of course, entertainment. The SCCA process may be outdated and broken. Change is all but impossible, but lets not blame Apexspeed.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Al,
Its because you have that criminal kinda look about you,you scare people off
You should all sit back,roll a fat joint and put Jimi Hendrix in the CD player in the OFF-SEASON and anyone who puts a PET-BOYS or BARRY MANILOW CD on is to be Flamed........regularly.After 3 joints you will all be talking and loving each other on this forum,also we will see some great paint jobs on some Vees in 2015.....Oh!wait a minute thats acid I forgotJust listening to the STONES "You cant Always Get What you Want"
This is why I like to keep discussions going. There are still a lot of newer people that do not know why we are where we are right now. Personally, I like to learn & understand the class, not just blindly follow the herd without question. I've learned quite a bit asking things & getting feedback from FVers all over the place, and value input from all angles.
~Matt Clark
You mean Pet Shop Boys? See, that's the problem with FV. Even the "young" guys grew up in the 80s.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
That's news to me. Maybe I'm the last to know.
In the 14+ years we have been around, I have made it my #1 goal to make this place as comfortable and open of a community as is possible on the internet, which is a tremendously difficult thing to do. If you have been on ANY other discussion forums, you know that ApexSpeed is very tightly moderated. Our main policy here is that flame wars and personal attacks are not tolerated at all, in any form. If you can point to any attacks or flame wars here that have not been moderated, then by all means, please point them out to me.
Seriously? You're blaming the demise of FV on ApexSpeed and its perceived "lack of moderation"? You're kidding, right?The unmoderated personal attacks and flaming is what takes away so much from this forum, and is turning away people from FV.
Making a statement like you did in such a sweeping motion is damaging, at best, and flatly untrue. I would love for you to point out these distasteful personal attacks that keep happening, and the overall damaging wild west atmosphere that you are referring to. I believe you will be hard-pressed to find anything of real substance anywhere on ApexSpeed, not just the FV forum.
Having said that, to everyone, please know that we have 3 or 4 active moderators and Admins on the entire ApexSpeedforum. We can't read every post of every thread every day. If you see something that goes against forum rules, then it is your responsibility to report the offending post so that it can be moderated.
doug
Thanks Doug
I have been a loyal Apex follower for years. Before we bought our first car I was on this forum learning from experienced racers. I follow it daily still and still learn from it. Just as in life you have to be smart enough to weed through the BS and find the gems. I am also a member of the closed drivers association forum for FST. That too has it's place but an open forum like Apex is valuable. Bill Bonow who moderates here is a friend of ours and those that know him know he has a quick wit and unless you have your "A" game on you might miss the humor in it. I guess I just wanted to take the time to Thank Doug and all involved with Apex. Keep up the good work.
Doug, I agree and think you have done an excellent job with this forum.In the 14+ years we have been around, I have made it my #1 goal to make this place as comfortable and open of a community as is possible on the internet, which is a tremendously difficult thing to do. If you have been on ANY other discussion forums, you know that ApexSpeed is very tightly moderated. Our main policy here is that flame wars and personal attacks are not tolerated at all, in any form. If you can point to any attacks or flame wars here that have not been moderated, then by all means, please point them out to me.
The way I see it is we (the FV community) are basically a big family. We don't agree on everything, we get emotional and sometimes say things that we really don't mean. We all have opinions regarding the best way to do this or that....... that's what family's do.
I've been doing this for 35 years and have never seen another class with even half as much camaraderie. When a fellow competitor has an issue we all pitch in to help. Most of us pit together. The majority of my best friends are either current or past FV racers. In spite of all the arguing, disagreeing, and complaining, I love this class and the people that have made it what it is.
Scott
Here, lemme help you with that.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Sounds to me like he's just promoting an alternative Forum to Apexspeed. Which I guess he can do but it's sure sickening reading it.
I've been on Apexspeed for 12 years now and Doug has always been very quick to address untoward comments between people or discussions that take a turn into objectionable areas to the mass of members.
Apexspeed rocks!!
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
You mean Pet Shop Boys? See, that's the problem with FV. Even the "young" guys grew up in the 80s.
You are right Matt!as you might guess I grew up in the 70s
There is more to this than just the 'haves' vs 'have nots'. Maybe because of the nature of the origin FV design, there has been a concern about cost that some considered best met by not allowing any change. Also, the average age of current FV competitors implies a certain level of conservatism that comes with advanced age. And who doesn't want to preserve 'tradition'.
I was surprised to see in an 'early' 70's copy of VeeLine that there was consideration of ball joint front ends and updates engine configurations.
FV competitors have been digging this hole we are in for many decades.
Brian
Brian, you are correct. FV updates to BJ beams and discs were being discussed a long time ago, in the mid 70's at least. I know as I had those conversations. When I finally got back to FV I was actually surprised to find so little had changed from around 1980. The biggest surprise was the change in valve springs allowing 7K rpm motors...
Doug, this forum has always been well moderated since I have been visiting. A bit of snark/joking now and then is a healthy thing. Some people are more easily offended than others.
Barry
The Vee Lines newsletter has the same discussions on ApexSpeed almost word for word. Covering every "modern" topic from costs, tires, manifolds, beams & discs. You can open almost any year or month and you'll see the things talked about 45+ years ago.
http://www.formulavee.us/
November 1968 -
WHAT'S NEW FOR 1969?
Our "No" votes, with two exceptions,
were honored either by actual concurrence, or
by disregard of the question:
1. No ball-joint front ends or disc brakes.
It's interesting to see 45+ years of identical resistance to changes in the rules for the class. So will bringing this topic up every year for another 45 years change anything? Eh, no.
So why keep tilting at windmills?
Why? Because it has worked so well to maintain FV National participation in recent years...oh wait.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Gee Stan, thanks I had not noticed.Why? Because it has worked so well to maintain FV National participation in recent years...oh wait.
I do remember that I entered a Vee race at Blackhawk Farms in the early 80s and there were 69 entrants. Those were good days.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Yep, good point. FV is a great class, but now days there are several competing classes that offer the same affordable entry level racing to today's young starting-out racers that FV did to young starting-out drivers back decades ago: and F600, SM and STL are all closer to what today's starting out driver has personal experience with. After all, how many people under the age of 50 (heck...60!) have ever driven, much less owned an air-cooled VW?
Conversely, everyone under 50 is familiar with 600cc sportbikes, Miatas and the cornucopia of import and domestic 4-banger sporty econoboxes (the bread and butter of the STL class).
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
As much as I get frustrated by the apathy of the FV community and the paralytic pace of the SCCA competition process, the massive recent drop of FV National participation is directly related to the Majors program and moving the Runoffs to the west coast. The Eastern 1/3 of the country, primarily the Northeast, was where the best participation numbers have been for a decade. All those Nationals got eliminated and people had no reason to race. They managed to fill the Runoffs grid with West Coast regional racers, but never found a way to replace all those National entries lost from the rest of the country.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Your point is well taken, Greg, but the decline of FV National participation long precedes the transition from Nationals to Majors and the movement of the Runoffs to Laguna Seca. It has been going on with fits and starts for more than two decades.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
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