China

[Westroc]

OK here goes. Let's talk (hopefully not rant) about all the racing equipment from China. Like helmets, fittings (are there any US made) and all the rest of the junk we are all buying ( OH yes me included). I think for everybody's long term good we ought to name parts made HERE. Especially if some of us are quizzy about naming names for junk Chinese parts. I have had about enough of fittings that don't fit, oil filters that don't flow until they blow and a million others. Don't even think about telling me that the material is the same it's not. How do I know? Quality Mgr. for 30yrs. Know what they do-they buy 1 coil of cert material and then buy crap and send you the cert from the "good" coil. Caught em red handed!
I have never started a thread. Hell I'm Canadian and we don't make nearly as much as the US (past tense maybe) Am I the only one tired of the bullsh?
Name me one -8 fitting not made in China.

Let's talk about this it's important at least to me anyway.
Sorry Doug but I hope this blows up 'cause it needs to.

[Jeremy Soule]

Yes, so much of the time it seems that a given part either doesn't fit right, doesn't work right from day one or is soon to fail.

The thing thats weird though is that China as a country is like over 4000 years old, they have got to know how to build stuff, they must have some craftsman there and proably good quality parts and material too we are just not getting it here (that I know of).

I see the problem in 2 parts….

First the problem partially is the Wallmartazation of the US retail business and consumer. Yesterday I drove past 2 national chain auto parts stores to get to one locally owned store to buy a simple on-off toggle switch built in the US with nice tight action that was actually cheeper $4.09 the the chain store model. The thing is the owner lives here in this city, I can get word to him if his stuff is sub-standard. Same holds true for your hardware, lumber, plumbing supply outlets. Small businesses you know not corporations.

The second problem is the area of out right bootlegging or counterfeit parts. Hot Rod magazine did an article a while back where they took apart 2 MSD A-6 spark boxes side by side one from the manufacturer MSD and another one that once the cheep rivets were drilled out and the cover removed was obviously a fake poorly made knock off. Then they did 2 fuel pressure regulators, same results. So it seems it's better to buy directly from a manufacturers website if you need a aftermarket racing part.

Wanted to share these thoughts, hope it helps. Thanks J

[captain_pants]

Once upon a time it was as simple as you allude to, but no longer. There are extremely high quality parts coming out of China, as well as utter crap. There are extremely high quality parts coming out of the USA, as well as utter crap. The difference is in what the person paying for the work has specified and is willing to pay for.

The big problem is that we're (collectively) getting what we say we want: inexpensive parts that meet some quality standard. What we may want is inexpensive parts that grossly exceed a quality standard, as that's what we used to get. An example is high-strength bolts, like ARP and similar. They exceed most standards out there by a large margin, so the designs can use smaller bolts safely. Now, someone replaces that bolt with another that meets a high standard, but it's not quite as good as the original that exceeded that standard.

The real dirty business is middlemen that buy middle-spec parts and resell them as high quality parts. Unfortunately, there are so many middlemen between foreign countries and North America that it's hard to tell what's what.

[MotorCade]

My last career was in aerospace as a Quality Engineer... most every one of the reputable shops in the US was bringing their work back from China for exactly these reasons mentioned above. It's not that there weren't good shops in China... it was that it was very hard to be sure. Combine that with the extra logistics and quality checks necessary for import/export, and chance of shipping damages, etc, etc... and it was often cheaper in the long run to do work with more expensive suppliers here in the US.

That said - I've seen some lower tier suppliers try some of the same tricks at the Chinese to save a buck or two, without realizing how much risk they were introducing into the final product.

It really boils down to building the business relationships with trustworthy companies that have a culture of integrity. And then working WITH them rather than throwing requirements AT them.

[Dog Licked Racing]

As we (the modern world) shifted away from purchasing well made USA & Western European made items (in the 1960's) to Japanese made item, then Indonesian (1970'6), then Korean (1980's) , then what was formally called eastern European (2000's), and now Chinese (2010's) those in manufacturing saw the same issues. Each of these manufacturing areas first obtained the ability to produce items to reasonably high standards in terms of machining tolerances and finishes, but lacked the metallurgy capabilities needed to really make a quality item. These items were passed along through the industry as "Same - Same".

Usually after producing the prototype and maybe a limited first production run of a item within the good old USA, a manufactured was swayed by the appearance of huge production cost savings available via "off shore" production. The problem was the substitution of Same - Same materials into the production process. Often these materials were substituted into the 2nd or 3rd production runs, the first production run was often produced to near specification. Availability of the specified material within the country is often cited, or simply this material or that process are changed by the producer as same - same.

Examples I have seen:

1) Sand cast vs. forged stress bearing auto parts (like uprights / knuckles) with enough machining to make them appear almost the same.

2) Fiberglass body panels where enamel paint is used instead of the Gel-coat, and poor quality resin causing the parts to bubble and change shape in the sun on a summer day.

3) Nomex gloves sewn together with cotton thread (not on the first batch of gloves, they were great). These fell apart when wet, as in by the end of the race you were wearing a top and bottom of a glove held together by a Velcro wrist wrap.

As each of these manufacturing areas (as least in the free world) grew to produce quality products, the cheap labor workforce learned to not work so cheap as they also wanted access to the products they were manufacturing.

China will resist this stronger then before in an attempt to minimize America's attempt to return to a industrial based economy. We all need to consider the depth of our support for items made in the USA. I am willing to pay a 20 to 30% upcharge to common items, and quite a bit more for critical items. Will 20- to 30% be enough to re-start the USA's manufacturing base? If not maybe we should dig deeper into our pockets. Money spent within a country, as in not on imports, often is a good thing.

[dc]

Gonna move this to the General Forums, because it needs more eyes on it than just the FC group for a complete, intelligent discussion.

[beachguy12]

"[SIZE=2] Often these materials were substituted into the 2nd or 3rd production runs, the first production run was often produced to near specification. Availability of the specified material within the country is often cited, or simply this material or that process are changed by the producer as same - same.[/SIZE]"

This isn't happening just offshore. After a recent change of senior leadership in both our division and at the next tier, my former company, a major aircraft OEM and DoD supplier, began doing basically the same thing. We were 'informed' we were over inspecting incoming materials. So the norm became qualify product with certified materials and them procure Same-Same materials foregoing certification. Management saw this as a way to reduce material and inventory cost for 'better metrics' to corporate.

[MotorCade]

"[SIZE=2] Often these materials were substituted into the 2nd or 3rd production runs, the first production run was often produced to near specification. Availability of the specified material within the country is often cited, or simply this material or that process are changed by the producer as same - same.[/SIZE]"

This isn't happening just offshore. After a recent change of senior leadership in both our division and at the next tier, my former company, a major aircraft OEM and DoD supplier, began doing basically the same thing. We were 'informed' we were over inspecting incoming materials. So the norm became qualify product with certified materials and them procure Same-Same materials foregoing certification. Management saw this as a way to reduce material and inventory cost for 'better metrics' to corporate.

Whooo... scary stuff. First article inspection should have been required for any change of process, location, tooling, material, or supplier. Your former company is probably in violation of their FAI requirements if an auditor was to check. Substitution of material must be proven to be equivalent.

[Westroc]

First thank you to Doug for letting more "eyes" at this. Also thank you to those who are responding thoughtfully. We have 100's of factories that gave good jobs and people had the (more) wherewithal to buy quality. Hell my plant automotive tier 1 had 1495 people in 2008 and in 2009 we had 60. The owner has more money than GOD. He is the SINGLE largest shareholder of a major bank In Canada and we have 6 Banks. Any guesses? Not pension funds etc. HIM.
I also find it very interesting nobody has mentioned fittings like Earls (china). If you are not on them like the plague all the time most stuff will get by. Carbon material is coming from China and I talked to the guy and he says he throws 80% away and still turns a profit. How?

Ultimately I hope suppliers input here and maybe if I dream enough we can compile a list of FAVORED suppliers we can all support and help those guys make a living too.

[killerken53]

We use high pressure components on a daily basis, and we have little to no issues with components. Brass NPT fittings are Parker, rated at 1000 psi. Some stuff is made in the USA, you just have to pay attention. Hard tubing and fittings are Swagelok brand, primarily made in Ohio. We work to 10000 psi with that regularly. The remainder of our stuff comes from Germany, Sweden, Italy and the USA. We have had to specify no China melts on stainless after we had tubes blow under autofrettage at 90,000 psi.

[Daryl DeArman]

Name me one -8 fitting not made in China.

Easy Peasy....

Bonaco (a neighbor of mine...been in business for a few decades)

Fragola

Now you have choices...

[Westroc]

Fittings: HUH I am not familiar w/brands named. Maybe shame on me. Can you direct? Summit?( Doubt it) Which race shop has those?

[Daryl DeArman]

My opinion likely won't be too popular with so many folks tied one way or another to the automotive industry. But here it goes anyways...

We put ourselves in this situation. "We" bought American made automotive crap in the 70's and 80's because "we" weren't about to buy no furren' stuff. The big 3 continued to pump out crap because they could. We also had unions demanding artificially high and unsustainable compensation packages.

When you have a company like Arconic (Aerospace fastener division of ALCOA) sourcing their aluminum from China because the huge beverage companies here in the USA won't buy American made aluminum. It cost .3 cents more to produce an aluminum can from USA made aluminum...what do you do?

I'm wearing shoes made in the USA. The desk I am sitting at is made in America. My wife's new Subaru is made in the USA. My Honda with 301K miles on the clock is made in the USA. I am all for buying American made products, but only when their quality is at least the same. I'm not paying a huge premium and getting substandard quality products because of exorbitant labor costs.

[Daryl DeArman]

Fittings: HUH I am not familiar w/brands named. Maybe shame on me. Can you direct? Summit?( Doubt it) Which race shop has those?

http://www.bonacoinc.com/

http://fragolaperformancesystems.com/

[Wren]

Brown and Miller makes their stuff in the U.K.

I had to tell my material supplier no Chinese aluminum. It meets the spec for 6061, but it never cuts or finishes the same.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DanW]

In my line of work (biopharmaceutical manufacturing) it's almost impossible to not use Asia/Pacific (China, Indian, Korean, Malaysian, Thai) sourced components. Our minimum base materials of construction is 316L stainless. We find they may meet the general parts of the specs, but the details not so much, particularly fabricated parts such as forged valves and fittings. Details such as grain size, stringers and forging orientation get missed.

We insist on mill test reports on all parts. We have found that even though the paperwork shows meeting the material spec, the level of impurities in the steel is higher and has poorer corrosion resistance vs the equivalent US or European source stainless. I am still waiting more than a year on some bioreactor parts that won't pass a saline test after electropolishing because of impurities.

We had some tanks fabricated by a supplier in Shanghai. Our metallurgical inspector went to the shop to inspect the tanks during fabrication as part of the contract. Our inspector found they were using the incorrect welding rod and shielding gas. He ordered all the welds ground out and tanks rewelded. He came back two weeks later and reinspected the fabrication. They used the same incorrect rod and shielding gas as before. They advised they didn't have the correct rod or gas availablle and it was "take it or leave it." He rejected the work and we canceled the contract, even though the delays put our project behind schedule.

As the article "How to buy a used formula car" on the Reynard register once said, "You get what you inspect, not what you expect."

Caveat Emptor

[924RACR]

Simply small anecdotal stuff here... Chinese fuses (not easy to find those that aren't!) melting the plastic of the fuse body instead of blowing... best one yet, a fitting - 90 deg -6AN bulkhead fitting for my fuel system return line. Took a while to stumble across this one; turned out the fitting wasn't drilled all the way through, and so was a dead end! Don't even remember where that one was sourced, unfortunately. Of course, after drilling out, worked just fine...

Am in automotive, myself, in yet another global (technology) company investing heavily in China. Well known and highly respected; I'd virtually guarantee all of you have at least one of our parts on your racecar. Management just seems to willingly ignore the fact that the Chinese government has no respect for concepts of intellectual property. It's hard to continue to innovate when there's a constant threat of your hard work being given away for nothing to competitors like that...

[DaveW]

Easy Peasy....

Bonaco (a neighbor of mine...been in business for a few decades)

Fragola

Now you have choices...

Fittings: HUH I am not familiar w/brands named. Maybe shame on me. Can you direct? Summit?( Doubt it) Which race shop has those?

http://www.bonacoinc.com/

http://fragolaperformancesystems.com/

Summit carries Fragola.

[xmazdatracy]

99% of north Americans just don't know. Their stuck on regonmics. As a retail employee I see it first hand every day. People walk up to my counter completely ignorant of what they have in there hands. They think its just a bike. Two wheels and a frame (including cool guy Dale Earnhardt stickers). And they want it to jump the moon. When I explain that to fix the bike that they so utterly treated like sh&^ will cost X2 what they paid for it they just get made at me. Then they go to my competitor (whom I am friends with) and they will tell them the same cost. I often get a call from him and have a laugh.

As they wheel/drag their chariot of death past our new bikes made in Taiwan they see the price of a real bike. I feel that most of them (again 99%) do not understand the difference of a walmart bike and a bike shop bike. At that moment I feel we lost a customer for life. "How can I pay hundreds of dollars for a bike when I can go to target and buy one for $80, right?" They just keep buying bikes/lawnmowers/blenders/furniture/tvs/microwaves/(anything) and when it breaks I just go and buy a new one. "F the garbage heap I keep pumping into. That's not my problem its my kids and grand kids problem (whom I am clearly to ignorant to care about)."

Also who cares about china right? Read/watch this.
http://mashable.com/2017/04/25/iphon.../#vIyl7W4.bmqH

It is extremely nice to see someone care about their town that they live in and want to keep their town a functioning town. And even more so to meet someone who has the ability to buy an American made TREK. Because the project one TREK's are all now over $10,000 (why? cause john burk has to answer to the shareholders). As more and more people bring parts and bikes (to be built) to my service counter I wonder what they will all do when there is no service counter anymore (we make our profits off of parts and bikes). Will amazon come to your home and fix your bikes? Will amazon come and fix your clogged drain? Will amazon come and wipe you a$$ for you too? Because I feel that people are producing dumber and dumber people by the day. I mean look at the president. Looks very VERY close to this movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

If you have not watched it please do so, and when your done with your mind blown... share it with your friends.

[J Leonard]

Doesn't this video stuff eat up server space. Pictures OK but I find video very annoying. What does admin think?

[Hardingfv32]

On average there are more winners than losers for/with the 'Buy China' theme. The USA's standard of living is higher because of it.

You might have problems with 'Buy China' regarding your race car but chances are you are able to afford more racing because of it.

As it is the economically logic position to hold for the country it is not going to change regardless of all the political rhetoric.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

It is extremely nice to see someone care about their town that they live in and want to keep their town a functioning town. And even more so to meet someone who has the ability to buy an American made TREK. Because the project one TREK's are all now over $10,000 (why? cause john burk has to answer to the shareholders).

One of my bikes is a Santana, handmade in LaVerne, CA. I like to buy local. I like to buy American Made. I like to buy quality.
A local bike shop just closed after 83 years in business.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/busines...rs-in-business

So, I get it. It almost sounds like you do as well....except for your anti-Trump, anti-Reagonomics, anti-shareholder ramblings...

[xmazdatracy]

Doesn't this video stuff eat up server space. Pictures OK but I find video very annoying. What does admin think?

LOL, I think you mean GIF. And its not a attachment its HTML coded to the site from another server.

On average there are more winners than losers for/with the 'Buy China' theme. The USA's standard of living is higher because of it.

You might have problems with 'Buy China' regarding your race car but chances are you are able to afford more racing because of it.

As it is the economically logic position to hold for the country it is not going to change regardless of all the political rhetoric.

Brian

Sad but very strong fact.

One of my bikes is a Santana, handmade in LaVerne, CA. I like to buy local. I like to buy American Made. I like to buy quality.
A local bike shop just closed after 83 years in business.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/busines...rs-in-business

So, I get it. It almost sounds like you do as well....except for your anti-Trump, anti-Reagonomics, anti-shareholder ramblings...

I have worked with many Santana's (I worked in a shop that carried many tandems in stock). Extremely nice tandems. However I have not seen one in a while (since I now work at another shop). They seemed to struggle with their 160MM rear drop out spacing and the (at the time new)10 speed. Now that we are in 11 and even now 12 speed bikes I wonder how they are doing. Very high quality frames! I personally love the DaVinchi tandems. Great guys to work with too!

Anti ramblings for some, but for us poor folk with Muslim relatives a hard day to day fact.

[Rick Brannon]

Yes, so much of the time it seems that a given part either doesn't fit right, doesn't work right from day one or is soon to fail.

The thing thats weird though is that China as a country is like over 4000 years old, they have got to know how to build stuff, they must have some craftsman there and proably good quality parts and material too we are just not getting it here (that I know of).

I see the problem in 2 parts….

First the problem partially is the Wallmartazation of the US retail business and consumer. Yesterday I drove past 2 national chain auto parts stores to get to one locally owned store to buy a simple on-off toggle switch built in the US with nice tight action that was actually cheeper $4.09 the the chain store model. The thing is the owner lives here in this city, I can get word to him if his stuff is sub-standard. Same holds true for your hardware, lumber, plumbing supply outlets. Small businesses you know not corporations.

The second problem is the area of out right bootlegging or counterfeit parts. Hot Rod magazine did an article a while back where they took apart 2 MSD A-6 spark boxes side by side one from the manufacturer MSD and another one that once the cheep rivets were drilled out and the cover removed was obviously a fake poorly made knock off. Then they did 2 fuel pressure regulators, same results. So it seems it's better to buy directly from a manufacturers website if you need a aftermarket racing part.

Wanted to share these thoughts, hope it helps. Thanks J

This is well stated and the root of the issue with suppliers. In today's market as a buyer you have to be wary of any parts quality and not assume anything based on the brand especially if you are tasked with writing RFP for the business you work for.
In my past life as a CNC electronic/electrical engineering technician the parts we received from manufactures' were of varying degrees of quality and trust me when you are the repair guy your reputation relies on quality as down time has a significant impact on timelines (cost) in our just in time manufacturing environments where parts for airplanes needed to not only fit but meet the timeline requirements so the plane could move down the final assembly pipeline on time.
We started testing all of our spares with traceable test equipment for rotating machinery all the way to the oils/fuels for the machines our findings were shocking and the vendors would try to hide and cheat there way past our testing department. I ran and managed the test department as the first line of defense for our union workers to provide confidence when they pulled something from our stores it was certified to work as designed, a staggering 70% of our electric motors that were brand new from the vendor would not pass the IEEE insulation tests for new apparatus. I went so far as to bring the vendor into a conference and have them tell us our traceable equipment was at fault, but they were not ready for our good old American prowess as we cut the offending part in half with a water jet and proved our non intrusive test equipment was 100% accurate and they were caught in a bold face lie.
The moral to this long winded diatribe is simply build a relationship with your retail supplier who will back their product and you are the quality control expert as the customer. This resource Apex Speed allows us as a minority (racers) to provide quality feedback to our rank and file as to who the reputable manufacturers and sellers are. Sorry guys but you hit one of my pet peeves I demand quality for my hard earned money not slip shod this will do products.

[Westroc]

Eloquent and right the heck on! We have precipitated nothing except by using the excuse of throwing up our hands and saying what can you do. I say no this is my 32nd year in racing and I would rather say to my driver I have cut all I'm gonna cut and when I can find US quality I am (happily) satisfied we go.
I'll give an example. Grandson now 16 is karting now 2 yrs in Rotax TAG class. Double champion despite the fact he is/was 14 in a SENIOR class and is 6'3 and 210lbs. Racing Tony kart. We should have zero chance. A lot of flack w/my chassis choice voiced. Last week he had the BIG one. Got on the grass and into a tire wall doing at least 60mph. Know what we had for damage? Broken steering wheel and a broke plug! Rear bumper bolts bent but not broken and we made the next heat and finished second. That would have written off many karts. I just want the quality I think I'm sacrificing my hard work for. Yes he flew like a plane.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'll give an example. Grandson now 16 is karting now 2 yrs in Rotax TAG class. Double champion despite the fact he is/was 14 in a SENIOR class and is 6'3 and 210lbs. Racing Tony kart.

You realize that neither that kart nor that engine were made in America right?

Why not race in WF class with a Margay or iKart?

[Rick Brannon]

You realize that neither that kart nor that engine were made in America right?

Why not race in WF class with a Margay or iKart?

If I'm not mistaken he's speaking to quality and as a old kart racer myself, having run almost every USA chassis w/Mac's,TKM's,Komets and B-Bombs my favorite chassis was built by Emmick which they sent me bare so long could assemble them. I run nothing out of the box because my tolerances are more anal than mass production. IMHO it's about the quality of the product you start with an excellent base. I would have loved to get my hands on a Piper or a Citation but people that buys generally keep them and I understand why.
No disrespect meant but I think Westroc gets of what I speak also we're pretty close to the same age I would suspect lol

[Daryl DeArman]

If I'm not mistaken he's speaking to quality and as a old kart racer myself, having run almost every USA chassis w/Mac's,TKM's,Komets and B-Bombs my favorite chassis was built by Emmick which they sent me bare so long could assemble them

Yes, I got that he was speaking to the quality and not the origin. Which is why I brought up the origin....it doesn't have to be made in America to be good quality.

My first kart was an Emmick (Express) as well. Ron and Linda closed Emmick in 2009. Someone else took it over but I believe they closed just a couple years later.

[Westroc]

Yes exactly. Emmick was good. I was a comet guy actually when pop ran it and now Mark We have along w/ the VD,s a team of 6-8 guys and a spectrum of chassis. Some I like very much and some I don't think are up to it much at all. Hardware (again) is just abissmal. example: one guy broke the thru bolt on the accel pedal. The pedal slides over the bolt and the bolt broke from the centre out in the centre section of the bolt. Not at the head or the threads right dead centre of the bolt. That should never happen. If you broke the bolt on a lower A-arm you are in trouble. BTW do not buy Fastenal hardware. I used to use their 6mm caps for our V/C and had 2 heads pop off. What the hell is the torque on them! 6lbs?? Read the back of the box.

[Rick Brannon]

Yes, I got that he was speaking to the quality and not the origin. Which is why I brought up the origin....it doesn't have to be made in America to be good quality.

My first kart was an Emmick (Express) as well. Ron and Linda closed Emmick in 2009. Someone else took it over but I believe they closed just a couple years later.

That's cool I received my last chassis in 1989 a few years after Ron's dad Gary died I'm from the old days when road racing karts were called enduro karts lol. The Rotax water coolers were just getting started I'm old enough that I've run Riverside and Ontario Motor speedway back then we were the first of the belt drive guys fun times. The worst of times also my Boeing friend James Kolman went to Daytona that year to run the Grand-nationals which I missed and was killed backing his road racing kart into the Armco barrier (RIP) my family begged me to race cars instead so here I am. I also remember the flack Gary took for running a Techno back in those days before he started building his excellent karts great family only wish Ron had made it farther in professional racing excellent talent but we all know this story. Westroc I remember the Dismores (Comet kart sales) also another great racing family. Mark at least made it to Indy cars.

[Daryl DeArman]

That's cool I received my last chassis in 1989 a few years after Ron's dad Gary died I'm from the old days when road racing karts were called enduro karts lol. The Rotax water coolers were just getting started I'm old enough that I've run Riverside and Ontario Motor speedway back then we were the first of the belt drive guys fun times. The worst of times also my Boeing friend James Kolman went to Daytona that year to run the Grand-nationals which I missed and was killed backing his road racing kart into the Armco barrier (RIP) my family begged me to race cars instead so here I am. I also remember the flack Gary took for running a Techno back in those days before he started building his excellent karts great family only wish Ron had made it farther in professional racing excellent talent but we all know this story. Westroc I remember the Dismores (Comet kart sales) also another great racing family. Mark at least made it to Indy cars.

I didn't know they were called anything but enduros. I bought my Emmick in '88 from a Duffy winning enduro guy. My last kart race was the '92 Grand Nationals. Isn't Comet still owned by the Dismore family?

Okay, back to China is mostly crap, USA is mostly good, unless you are talking about a 1975-1990 Big 3 vehicle, then it's all crap.

[924RACR]

LOL - I don't think the Big 3 got out of that big business of dumping crap on the American market until the mid-2000's (says the guy who even worked on some of 'em)!

[Daryl DeArman]

LOL - I don't think the Big 3 got out of that big business of dumping crap on the American market until the mid-2000's (says the guy who even worked on some of 'em)!

I was being generous... FCA still knows how to pump out the crap.

[xmazdatracy]

If this broke all the way it would have cut the guys leg/calf pretty deep. Fairly new "Schwinn" from this spring.


Brand new Specialized out of the box. Installed from China. Never cut, but passed QC and the individual whom installed it. From this spring also.


I keep them as paper weights. And sometimes tools to explain stuff to customers.

[Steve Demeter]

Manufacturing in China is still a bit like the old West. Some good some terribly poor.

We work with an American company that has a plant in China that makes cargo net hardware.

Even the American owners have trouble keeping their Chinese plant from sending off spec stuff.

[Westroc]

Steve unless you 100% inspect receiving you are not going to be happy. Now most companies are not going to do that (at all) 'cause number 1 it costs too much even hourly wage to sort it and it's NOT THEIR Job. So they tell the operators to sort it kinda as you go. So automatically when EVERY employee is on their A game and have perfect breathe you are at 92% max. and they have the finite training to know a good part from a bad part. You tell me. I'll tell you what happens your customer is going to send you a bill to your company for third party sort of your parts 'cause they are tired of the BS. Then if you supply parts say to China you know what happens? They inflate the orders. Why 'cause they know you can't do it so... then you fly 'em over to be on time. Surprise! they don't pay shipping now YOU do. Then when the boat stuff comes they reject it to keep you flying stuff at your cost. I can tell you for fact! Not my company but there was one in Alabama that went bankrupt doing just that. Wonder who owns it now? 2 guesses. Hard ball boys
Just when you think you have it figured out here's one. Why does 85% of Buick production go to China? Answer that.
Point I'm making is until the money tap is turned off China will not pay attention. Racing included. Tip of the iceberg maybe but time to make a change.

[Daryl DeArman]

Just when you think you have it figured out here's one. Why does 85% of Buick production go to China? Answer that.

Because GM believes in "build it where you sell it". 127,000 Envisions sold in China in under a model year. They don't have the plant here to build that platform. They sell 5 Envisions in China for every 1 in USA. ALL Buicks sold in USA this year don't add up to half that number.

The market here isn't paying 40K for that car, make it here and you'll sell less of them at 50K.

[MotorCade]

This is correct. The Chinese market sees Buicks the way the US market sees BMWs. (The upscale part, not the 'never uses turn signals' part) And building in country not only means the build and ship costs are lower, but it's also often the requirement to do business in foreign countries. (Actually, it's often the requirement to do business in this country, for foreign businesses)

[Steve Demeter]

Steve unless you 100% inspect receiving you are not going to be happy. Now most companies are not going to do that (at all) 'cause number 1 it costs too much even hourly wage to sort it and it's NOT THEIR Job. So they tell the operators to sort it kinda as you go. So automatically when EVERY employee is on their A game and have perfect breathe you are at 92% max. and they have the finite training to know a good part from a bad part. You tell me. I'll tell you what happens your customer is going to send you a bill to your company for third party sort of your parts 'cause they are tired of the BS. Then if you supply parts say to China you know what happens? They inflate the orders. Why 'cause they know you can't do it so... then you fly 'em over to be on time. Surprise! they don't pay shipping now YOU do. Then when the boat stuff comes they reject it to keep you flying stuff at your cost. I can tell you for fact! Not my company but there was one in Alabama that went bankrupt doing just that. Wonder who owns it now? 2 guesses. Hard ball boys
Just when you think you have it figured out here's one. Why does 85% of Buick production go to China? Answer that.
Point I'm making is until the money tap is turned off China will not pay attention. Racing included. Tip of the iceberg maybe but time to make a change.

Jim, You are preaching to the choir. After having spent 31 years in the Automotive Industry as a Tier 1 supplier, I know all about contained shipping and 100% inspection. All too painfully familiar.

[DanW]

Best practice is by SPC as developed by Shewart and advocated by Deming. Inspect (N for statistical confidence) parts or assemblies of a manufactured lot of 100. If one is found out of spec, the entire lot is rejected. Six sigma is the goal.

When six sigma is not good enough, 100% inspection is sometimes done for critical parts from contract manufacturers such as medical devices. The cost of resolving a customer complaint per FDA quality requirements easily exceeds the inspection cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statis...rocess_control