New RFR 1000 is dead sexy!!

[mikey]

Well the renderings online are pretty sweet.. anybody have photos from the runoffs?

http://www.firmancarsnorthamerica.com/

[SEComposites]

To me it looks like another fairly generic F1 styled car rather than a purpose built FB car. Given the FB rules an F1 team wouldn't create a car that looked like that.

[dc]

I kinda thought the same thing—they are all starting to look alike. There are only a couple that I have seen so far that are really designing FBs that don't look like Euro F-cars, and I applaud those guys.

[Brett Lane]

Same here. A couple years ago, the GP2 cars looked bad ass and the design was totally functional. Look at them this year. Fugly.

[KenT]

It says it has a blown diffuser. Hmmmmm. Didn't the Indy lights have that a while back and it caused problems? Throttle on..ok. Throttle off loss of rear downforce. Correct me if I am wrong.

I understood the F1 guys got around that issue with engine mapping that essentially kept the hot air flowing even in the off throttle condition. I am assuming that function is not included in the new RFR package.

[Thomas Copeland]

OK have to put on my Firman West Cars/Firman North America hat here and give a little info about the car.

The new Firman F-1000 just like it's precessor, is a purpose built F1000 car.

The fact that it has F1 styling comes down to that is what many of our customers wanted to see (ie. better styling). It also happens that that F1 styling also creates a pretty nice aero profile.

The car will feature entire CFD analysis. That's all bodywork, side pods wing surfaces, diffuser. The works. The entire car. We expect this car to be a game changer.

We've basically taken everything we have learned from 4+ years of racing F1000 along with all the years Ralph Firman has and used that knowledge to design the new car.

The car should be available sometime around the first of the year in California for test drives to anyone interested in buying the car.

Also for those that don't already know Firman West Cars has become Firman North America.

There is quite a lot of changes going on not only with the new car but the way in which we will be bringing support to our customers. A new car with even better support. A lot more information to come over the next few weeks.

[James Morrison]

To me it looks like another fairly generic F1 styled car rather than a purpose built FB car. Given the FB rules an F1 team wouldn't create a car that looked like that.

How would you expect an F1 team designed FB to look compared to this RFR?

[racerdad2]

Honestly, all the F1000 cars look fantastic ! My old Reynard's a brick by comparison

[Nicholas Belling]

James, a lot of aero design time went into the new firman.

The existing car went through a complete 3d scan for reference for Firmans aero design group to exactly know how much the new car aero gains were. and we were able to evaluate where many flaws of design were on the previous car.

Firman is going to be active and full time this coming 2014 year working with factory support drivers and owners to make any necessary changes as needed ( and rapidly ) when real world testing begins soon.

as for the blown diffuser.. You can do a blown diffuser setup going into the diffuser tray ( more pitch sensitive ) or above the tray. we are not working under the diffuser but instead above the diffuser.

ultimately from CFD the tests have shown to be positive and the real world tests will soon conclude this.

Our blown diffuser design will
a) work to move the wake from the rear wheels outwards where it will cause less disturbance
b) to re-energise the low pressure air at the very back of the diffuser to create more rear downforce.

again like any manufacturer we are trying new things, and have a good design group behind the firman program..

the car is planned to be at the PRI show this year for anyone to see it in person.

look forward to the 2014 year with many new designs and other manufacturers coming to the F1000 scene.

[SEComposites]

[QUOTE=James Morrison;405941]How would you expect an F1 team designed FB to look compared to this RFR?[/

I think the Citation and JDR are good examples of designing a car to go fast around a track within the FB rules. They look nothing like scaled F1 cars. Next years F1 cars will have to have much lower noses by regulation, so no doubt at some point this will trickle down to the junior catagories. It always makes me smile when you see some junior cars incorporating F1 styling that was madated in F1 to reduce downforce.

I'm not criticising the RFR - i'm sure it will be an effective car.

[Thomas Copeland]

The Citation is a great car no doubt, but it is not a purpose built FB car. The JDR is. We actually did look at the JDR when we starting designing the new car. If there were any elements from it we would want to incorporate.

We already knew the Firman car had great mechanical grip. So we decided to design the car around the best CFD/aero profile we could. There is a reason F1 cars look like they do, and it's not because they are suppose to go slow.

What's nice about this class, and what I like most about it, is that everyone has a little different take on what works best. It's what makes this class so interesting. Every car has it's own personality. Kinda of reminds me of the way F1 used to be back in the 70's.

[Chris Livengood]

The longer wheelbase is probably a good thing. Hopefully they've given up on the front suspension geometry and just started over there.

[tlandon]

What happened to McLaughlin Racing in Indiana? Is Billy racing anything now?

[SEComposites]

Yup, the FB rules create diversity and that's great. F1 cars are heavily regulated which is why they look so similar. Chassis height, width, nose height, spec front wing center, etc etc. Like i say next year they will look very different to this years cars, so junior F1 look-a-likes will look out of date. I still think an FC based FB is a great way to go like the Citation and the '99 + VD conversions.

[Nicholas Belling]

The longer wheelbase is probably a good thing. Hopefully they've given up on the front suspension geometry and just started over there.

yes chris the wheelbase we learned on the latest firman f4 car built this year was an improvement, and have yet improved upon that further for the new f1k car, as well the front suspension geometry has been revised and redesigned. we understood the short comings of the original design.

we are very excited to get the car on the track to start the season testing.

[Chris Livengood]

The "lead"in the front upright is a complete disaster. I hope that was removed.

[Thomas Copeland]

junior F1 look-a-likes will look out of date. I still think an FC based FB is a great way to go like the Citation and the '99 + VD conversions.

FC cars are a great way to go if you are on a budget and you want to get in the class cheap. It was the way I original planned to get into the class.

To be more spot on about this car there really isn't a single F1 car that we took direction from. We actually took our design direction from a car that was not an F1 car. The style was in the manner of an F1 car but it was not an F1 car. We went that direction to get improved aero. So highly doubtful we would immediately be out-of-date as you say because of any changes F1 makes since we are not basing our design on an actual F1 car. That is probably true about most of the other junior F1 look-a-likes, at least the ones I know about. They look like F1 because that probably gives them the best aero.

[James Morrison]

[QUOTE=SEComposites;405958]

How would you expect an F1 team designed FB to look compared to this RFR?[/

I think the Citation and JDR are good examples of designing a car to go fast around a track within the FB rules. They look nothing like scaled F1 cars. Next years F1 cars will have to have much lower noses by regulation, so no doubt at some point this will trickle down to the junior catagories. It always makes me smile when you see some junior cars incorporating F1 styling that was madated in F1 to reduce downforce.

I'm not criticising the RFR - i'm sure it will be an effective car.

My question was motivated by my strong interest in race car design and development and not whether I agreed or disagreed with your comment

[SEComposites]

FC cars are a great way to go if you are on a budget and you want to get in the class cheap. It was the way I original planned to get into the class.

To be more spot on about this car there really isn't a single F1 car that we took direction from. We actually took our design direction from a car that was not an F1 car. The style was in the manner of an F1 car but it was not an F1 car. We went that direction to get improved aero. So highly doubtful we would immediately be out-of-date as you say because of any changes F1 makes since we are not basing our design on an actual F1 car. That is probably true about most of the other junior F1 look-a-likes, at least the ones I know about. They look like F1 because that probably gives them the best aero.

I'm not suggesting the rfr would be out of date. We are just going round in circles here. F1 cars are good aero wise but only given the increasingly tights regs designed to limit downforce that they are constrained by. An F1 car built to FB type regs would look nothing like they do now obviously. Anyway, i'm not gaving a dig at the RFR : )

[allof6]

You guys are all caught up on looks! Yes they need to move through the air but the winningist formula one car of recient years is not the fastest in a straight line and the same can be said for a couple of the FB. What they do have is superior mechanical grip which is a big over sight for a lot of people.

[racerdad2]

Of course we're caught up on looks. We're guys

[allof6]

Then the nose should be shorter and the pods bigger

[Northwind]

Looks like a duct in front of the rear wheel that is supporting the rear tire kick up. Hmmm....legal?

[Wren]

The Citation is a great car no doubt, but it is not a purpose built FB car.

LOLWUT?

[problemchild]

The sexiest car is the one driven by the guy standing on the top of the podium. That makes Citations pretty sexy, certainly more so than cars that are 19th and 20th on the grid

[S Lathrop]

The Citation is a great car no doubt, but it is not a purpose built FB car. The JDR is. We actually did look at the JDR when we starting designing the new car. If there were any elements from it we would want to incorporate.

I am going to attribute your comment to not having designed many cars or you are being deceived by the looks of my cars. The Citation FB shares only the main chassis and some body parts with the Citation FF and FC. The suspension and its geometry is unique to the FB. The same is true to some extent for my FC and FF. The aero package is unique to the FB, although some parts are shared between the FB and FC.

The main chassis is designed to be as stiff and light as we can possibly make it. The biggest limitation on the chassis is the driver and he has to fit and be able to get in and out. We have recently made significant improvement in the chassis for the 2014 season. For 2014 we expect to be 25 or more lbs. lighter and we are already well under 800 lbs. as is.

I have not convinced myself that I can do a stepped nose car and maintain or increase the chassis stiffness over what I have now.

The brake system we use we did the initial development work. Now PFC supplies that system to FC and FF as well.

Because the tires are the same and the horse power is only 20% greater the design optimums are not very different.

I have yet to see any indication that a high nose has any advantage in a class that has the limitations that FB through FF have. The high nose fashion is an outgrowth of the design limitations imposed on F1 over the recent years. I think a better model is Indy cars when the track record at Indy was set.

CFD is marvelous technology but you use it to optimize what you start with. It helps you decide what you want to try in the wind tunnel and that is just preparation for real world testing. The nice thing about coast down testing is you test exactly what you race and at the speeds you actually run.

Finally, SCCA rules and FIA rules as they affect body design are significantly different. I think the advantage is on this side of the Atlantic. Neither the Citation nor the JDR are legal to run in England. And those difference translates in straight line speed.

[Thomas Copeland]

Thanks for the input. The citation is a very nice car!!

[R. Pare]

Looks like a duct in front of the rear wheel that is supporting the rear tire kick up. Hmmm....legal?

That would depend on how the "duct' and "gap" rule gets interpreted.

[urbanimports02]

lengthened wheelbase? was it short before or something? what was it and what is it now? what about track?

[S Lathrop]

Thanks for the input. The citation is a very nice car!!

I will grant you that when you market a car that looks that good, selling something like my 20 year old looking thing will be difficult.

This is what makes FB the best challenge in race car engineering today.

[SEComposites]

I will grant you that when you market a car that looks that good, selling something like my 20 year old looking thing will be difficult.

This is what makes FB the best challenge in race car engineering today.

The Citation is a great looking car!

[Tiago Santos]

The Citation is a great looking car!

Given that race cars look a lot better when they're winning and running fast laps, I'd say the Citation is a thing of exquisite beauty!

[Evl]

Given that race cars look a lot better when they're winning and running fast laps, I'd say the Citation is a thing of exquisite beauty!

And to add to that, the JDR certainly looked innovative, but after seeing it on speedcast today, it's looking pretty sexy too!

[racerdad2]

I'd say there will be a lot a guys wanting a JDR after Loshak's drive in the wet... & his tires...

[Alex Pate]

All that being said the firman had been an incredibly fast and reliable car over the last 4 years. Can't wait to see what the new one can do.

[ghickman]

Laugh out loud..........Ok Alex you must have gotten paid....good on you.

[rperry]

I feel like every Formula car in every series is now "designed and optimized using the latest CFD technology," but I have this suspicion that what it really means is "we put wings on the car." There is never any more than a marketing-speak sentence on a web page of forum post to give more detail...... Why not include some info about the designers or a few images from the CFD simulations to back up the claim?

Was the car run in "CFD" in Solidworks by a student without any real experience? A chassis/mechanical designer doing CFD for the first time? Or a professional Aerodynamicist with access to a real code and good methods? Were the "wing and body **profiles**" run, or was the full car modelled?

Of course anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing what appears to be such a high drag, high DF design is truly fastest for FB....

I think the Citation and JDR are good examples of designing a car to go fast around a track within the FB rules. They look nothing like scaled F1 cars. Next years F1 cars will have to have much lower noses by regulation, so no doubt at some point this will trickle down to the junior catagories. It always makes me smile when you see some junior cars incorporating F1 styling that was madated in F1 to reduce downforce.

Exactly. And I think an FB car should have way fewer aero devices (bargeboards, wheel flickups, etc.), given the lower power nature of the series (compared to series which have cars that look like this one). And the fact that the rules allow for downforce to be produced elsewhere more efficiently.

I definitely agree than an F1 team (or most motorsport aerodynamicists in general) would not produce a car that looks like this for FB. And your statement in bold especially :-D

[Jnovak]

The new Firman is a another example of a parachute disguised as a race car.

I suggest that you buy one so that we can win more easily.

[racerdad2]

[Wren]

damn