F1200 to FST?

[AVR_Shane]

With all the chatter on the main FV forum about FV being thrown into/along with/etc. with FST, it got me thinking about what would happen on our side of the border...

Let's just say for instance that in 5 years from now, FV either absorbed into FST, or both ran together....given our follow the leader method along with rule changes in FV, how would that effect our racing? I know last time FST was tried out up here it failed big time and was pushed out rather quickly.

[Steve Bamford]

You can buy competitve cars, FV's, much cheaper then you can convert anything. To make FST work here you need to get a good number of people to convert their cars over. You should poll the the FTDA active drivers & see how many are willing & capable of making the conversion. You will need 70 plus percent willing to move this way if you want to have any success, at least that is my take on it.

Running split classes is not what you want to do in my opinion. You can welcome cars to race but I have seen many a faster with slower drivers mess up F1200/FV races. I have also seen Faster cars with fast drivers mess up FV/F1200 races as well. If the F1200 group can continue to run alone, if possible, then you are much better off.

You have a great thing going with the FTDA/F1200 series, keep it up.

[fvhopeful]

Shane I wasn't involved when formula first
Was introduced in Ontario.
I think we have to be proactive and look at all the pros and cons
To keep the level of car counts up.
This weekend is a bit of an eye opener
And maybe some discussion should be started
I am sure there are alot of positive ideas
That can be implemented
Cheers
Desmond

[Steve Bamford]

F1200 Series has addressed some issues that FV did not many years such as a spec tire & spec manifold to keep costs in line. I am not saying that to push FV into thinking or talking about either as that has been beaten to death & horse left the barn long ago. Just stating some major difference that has helped F1200 Series continue to be successful.

Having your own run group is what FV & FST are looking for, F1200 Series already has it which is once again another major difference & positive for the success of the series currently & hopefully going forward.

[hojof1]

since you got the manilfolds locked down and spec tire solution long built in place, the only thing worth looking at from the FST model is the ball joint front end and disc brakes.

You should talk to Gerorge Rau as his car is currently setup like I mentioned above. 1200 drivetrain with proper 1200 tires (on different rims) but ball joint/disc brakes setup.

George wasn't the fastest guy out there but it would be interesting to see what kind of times someone could do who usually runs up front. You could find a baseline from there and plan future rules creep to find some sort of normalization over time.

[karmaboy]

This is supposed to be grassroots racing. With easy access to common parts and simple mechanicals. Try finding a front beam these days. It seems drums are being horded. A 50 year old engine is $3-5K. People outside the class just shake their heads when I explain this them.
How do we make the transition for any of the changes... no clue. I'm resigned to the fact that the changes need to be made. Its going to cost $$$ and maybe disrupt the nice little class we have now. Hopefully we get to a "stable" and reasonable set of rules within the next 5-10 years that return this class to its origins.

[davidb]

A view from the outside looking in, and not liking it in the US: If you guys up there do any thing to increase "entry barriers" you're going the wrong way. I think Vees have to be the low buck,entry level racing option, and the lower the costs the better.

So far so good, I'd consider racing a F1200, but down here US FV is absolutely the last class I'd consider.

$700 tire packages and 10K motors are not the way to go ,

(This is the opinion of a guy without a dog in the hunt. Maybe uninformed, but not biased either.)

[Rolling Stone]

Cheaper tires,cheaper manifold our own qualifying and races..if it aint brokeits lasted a long time,but I guess at some point there will have to be changes of some sort.UK/Australia/Ireland vees seem to be very successful and nice looking cars but I dont know the specs etc.

[Tiago Santos]

Obviously I have no place to be making comments, but just a quick thought F1200 seems to be the best thing around in my opinion, cheap, uncomplicated, lots of cars.. But that is just what FV used to be in SCCA! It's a fine line between keeping a good thing going, and stagnating like FV did..

Please take advantage of the tight knit group you guys seem to have, get together and see what the class as a whole is willing to do!

I agree that F1200 fixed the biggest problems with SCCA FV - tires and manifold creep. It's up to you guys to try and figure out if the rest of the "issues" are really issues for you. With the slightly reduced grip from the street tires, you're probably not having to run $$$ brake shoes, so would there be any advantage going with discs? With the stock manifolds, some of the $$$ motor tweaks are probably unnecessary. Not sure if the slightly lower power levels are helping with the longevity of motors up there, but then again switching to 1600 doesn't seem to change much unless you also run a dry sump.

I wouldn't go through the effort of switching to a BJ beam unless I was going to run disc brakes as well, so there's that..

[georau]

As I have been mentioned in this thread, I would like to share a few thoughts.

I will not get into to many specifics and will be very careful as to my words as I am sure they will be misconstrued, therefore I do not like e mail postings, besides it would be to long of a post and I am not out to start a confrontation or pissing contest with anyone only information relating to the thread.

When I first got into racing it was with the original FST group in Ontario as I was not aware of the 1200 series at the time. As I was unaware of the 1200's at the time I liked the simplicity of the FST car. That is ease and cost of parts replacement if required. We used the same tires as the 1200's only 15" allowed disc brakes ball joint front end and a 1600 motor. Basically these were the only differences that I can recall.

This is my opinion only. It was more of an internal politicking/power trip thing that I feel caused the implosion of the series. Nothing about the car itself.

As I now had a FST car gathering dust in garage and was now aware of the 1200's I put in a 1200 motor and a link pin front end. I left the disc brakes but reduced my aluminium rims as the 1200 style of rim would not fit with the disc brakes but went down to a 13" the same as everyone else.

As Hojo said I was not the fastest nor did I out brake anyone in the corners with the disc brakes. The only advantage I saw was that the discs were easier to maintain vs the drums as not so much adjusting required ( my opinion only ).

I was having fun and that is all that mattered and do not feel that if I had switched to drums it would have changed any of my outcomes, basically the same as Rolling stone, at the back of the pack but enjoying my time on the track and the camaraderie in the pits as I was one of the older guys in 1200's.

Some of the points already posted are valid.

I have posted a picture of what my car looked like as stated above in the 1200 package other than disc brakes and rims.

I will be watching this thread with interest.

I might be out to a day the year as a spectator and if you want to talk with me let me know.

George Rau

Attachment 40854

[blackhole]

Combining classes doesnt work either.

Do it in stages!

Rack and Pinion

Ball Joint Beam and disc Brakes

1600 engine

We need to decide what the order is.

We can't stay the same, the parts are just not out there. I mean new parts! All the good quality german parts are gone. There are a select few people in the US that still have some parts but they hoarding them for themselves.

I know we have a good class now. But what happens when there arent parts to rebuild engines anymore, than we can't race either.



We have two options

1. Wait for the parts to be completly gone and no one shows up anymore.

2. Start to convert and hope it flys. It will will fly... bottom line people want to race!

[Steve Bamford]

Careful what you do...F1200 has a good thing going, if you lose two or three drivers because they won't buy into what you are selling you will continue to lose more.

The problem with FV in the US is they don't have their own run group & with the numbers they have show up at a race they won't anytime soon. SCCA has many more classes then CASC does so if you want to run in a true series in Canada there are less choices, which is a good thing.

F1200 participation has been steady for many years from what I have seen & we are now seeing US competitors join in as it is a good class.

I don't know anyone that can not get parts, maybe not off the shelf available but some how they still seem to be available track side. Lots of cars available out there that can be bought cheap & parted out if you see this becoming an issue.

Don't lose any drivers having to make conversions as once they are gone they are gone for good.

None of the changes anyone has suggested is going to make a young kid say "wow, that is what I was looking for & will now consider F1200".

[blackhole]

Careful what you do...F1200 has a good thing going, if you lose two or three drivers because they won't buy into what you are selling you will continue to lose more.

The problem with FV in the US is they don't have their own run group & with the numbers they have show up at a race they won't anytime soon. SCCA has many more classes then CASC does so if you want to run in a true series in Canada there are less choices, which is a good thing.

F1200 participation has been steady for many years from what I have seen & we are now seeing US competitors join in as it is a good class.

I don't know anyone that can not get parts, maybe not off the shelf available but some how they still seem to be available track side. Lots of cars available out there that can be bought cheap & parted out if you see this becoming an issue.

Don't lose any drivers having to make conversions as once they are gone they are gone for good.

None of the changes anyone has suggested is going to make a young kid say "wow, that is what I was looking for & will now consider F1200".

I understang what your saying... but

You can't get a engine rebuild with new parts I think that is a problem. I dont' want to have to spend $6000 plus on buying a second car for parts just to get someone elses old worn out stuff. The only new engine parts you can buy are the bearings. Thats it. Everything else is being recycled over and over from 1964. The engines will be dead in less than 5 years for most of us unless your a "special" customer of some of the engine builders in the states. As average joe racer call any engine shop and they won't sell you basic parts such as pistons and barrels. If you have new pistons in barrels today they will last you 3-4 seasons.. than what?

I understand what your saying about that people might not upgrade... but give it less than 5 years we wont have engines to race with, than what? We need to upgrade while the participation is still good.

[fvhopeful]

Derm and I are siting here at calabogie
Enjoying the thread . Something we have to address
Is our tire situation . It has been great
Running on the falkens but it doesn't
Look like our size 195 60/r14
Is still in production. I may be wrong
But 3 tire distributor have no stock

Cheers
Desmond

[Rolling Stone]

I called Falken(USA) spoke to sales dept..and it sounds like our tire is being discontinued..hence the shortage at dealers.Thats the impression I got anyway.

[Rolling Stone]

So guys!!!its 1600cc engines.....Dunlop tires....front wings.............air brakes.............KERS for 2016 season,start saving your $$$$$

[Robber98]

Vulcan Tires has stock of the Falken tires now. I just recieved mine today. Rob Murray