Let's fold FST into FV

[Bruce Livermore]

Make them more powerful and the crank and rods won't last as long IF you keep the rotating assembly the same weight. Why not up the CR while utilizing lightweight quality forged pistons?

Pistons are a concern but so too are the rods, crank, case and valve train (if we rev higher).

Want to reign in the carb/manifold war without slowing the cars down? Spec manifold that flows better than the best known manifold now and a larger spec carb with much better manufacturing tolerances to eliminate the parts-bin blueprinting.

Wow, what an idea! I tried championing this a couple years ago and I'm still pulling the arrows from my back side. Good luck!

BTW, we actually got some dyno data on restrictor plates used with a higher flowing (Aussi spec) manifold. In the end anything "spec" was rejected out of the chute. Same with spec tires...

Bruce

[smsazzy]

Ok another one of my negative posts.

VW motor for 11K? No carb or manifold? I wonder why no carb or manifold?

No offense, but anybody that walks away from the rest of the field in a "Spec" class is usually doing you know what.

Seen it many times in kart racing.

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

To insinuate someone is cheating, with zero evidence, whom I assume you have never met, who - oh by the way - had their entire engine torn down and inspected after winning and was found legal - is ballsy at best, and totally inappropriate and uncalled for at worst.

The most tightly controlled spec class, FE, typically has two guys that are about 20+ seconds ahead of 3rd place at the runoffs. Typically the winner is about 5 seconds ahead of 2nd. So, if 2nd place drops out, and the winner is now 25 seconds ahead, is he cheating too?

Maybe stop to think next time, that perhaps a guy, racing on his home track, with a car basically built for that track, might do well the first year there. Jus' sayin'.

[Bruce]

Just for those that are confused. Formula Vee is not a spec class.

[CenDiv4]

Well its good to see that after 8 pages we have made no progress, again... very similar to previous discussions concerning our class.

How about we move back on track to what the initial post was about, not what Mike is selling, that's nobody's interest unless you are going to pony up and purchase it.

[Tiago Santos]

Just for those that are confused. Formula Vee is not a spec class.

Way to focus on the semantics! We're not a "spec" class, just a highly regulated one that uses several "spec" key components.

[Mark Filip]

Way to focus on the semantics! We're not a "spec" class, just a highly regulated one that uses several "spec" key components.

Not true we don't have spec anything we have rules big big difference.

Highly regulated yes and that's a good thing not bad.

[Stan Clayton]

Well its good to see that after 8 pages we have made no progress, again... very similar to previous discussions concerning our class.

How about we move back on track to what the initial post was about, not what Mike is selling, that's nobody's interest unless you are going to pony up and purchase it.

Yeah, that would be nice. Thanks!

[problemchild]

Or maybe even discussing realistic objectives .....
cost-cutting options like spec tires .....
larger, safer driver compartments .....

[Daryl DeArman]

Wow, what an idea! I tried championing this a couple years ago and I'm still pulling the arrows from my back side. Good luck!

In the end anything "spec" was rejected out of the chute. Same with spec tires...

I hear you. Rules stability: Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[mblanc]

What FV needs is an alternative Honda engine option

That has to be the best comment of the thread.

[SamF]

Maybe someone can clean up the posts that have nothing to do with the topic it's gone a little to far

Mark,

If they did that then this string would be down to just two postings; The 1st posting saying "maybe we should think about a change so the ACVW classes can survive", then the 2nd posting can just say "No, FV does not wish to change". Then this topic can be closed.

[sracing]

[Garry Sharp]

Now I know why participation numbers are down in these classes. Nobody has jobs!

[Mark Filip]

Now I know why participation numbers are down in these classes. Nobody has jobs!

It's amazing how many people don't get this

[dc]

If they did that then this thread would be down to just two postings; The 1st posting saying "maybe we should think about a change so the ACVW classes can survive", then the 2nd posting can just say "No, FV does not wish to change". Then this topic can be closed.

/thread

[fvhopeful]

It's amazing how many people don't get this

And someone askto have my post cleaned
Up as it was off topic.

All I was asking for was some constructive information
On some proactive changes I wad going to make to a second Vee/1200
I have .
But I guess any talk or impllemention of change
Damages some egos

Cheers
Desmond

[tlandon]

To insinuate someone is cheating, with zero evidence, whom I assume you have never met, who - oh by the way - had their entire engine torn down and inspected after winning and was found legal - is ballsy at best, and totally inappropriate and uncalled for at worst.

The most tightly controlled spec class, FE, typically has two guys that are about 20+ seconds ahead of 3rd place at the runoffs. Typically the winner is about 5 seconds ahead of 2nd. So, if 2nd place drops out, and the winner is now 25 seconds ahead, is he cheating too?

Maybe stop to think next time, that perhaps a guy, racing on his home track, with a car basically built for that track, might do well the first year there. Jus' sayin'.

Ain't cheatin till you get caught! And I never used the word cheating. You are the one that used the dirty word.
After all the years of watching FV front runners in packs of at least 5 or 6 cars and usually more, it's amazing to see the wide gap between the front runner and everybody else. Just sayin something's wrong with that picture. Yeah, actually had spectators back
then.
Nothing personal about any of this. Just my observations of the class.

[sracing]

Ain't cheatin till you get caught! And I never used the word cheating. You are the one that used the dirty word

I guess we misunderstood your intent.

No offense, but anybody that walks away from the rest of the field in a "Spec" class is usually doing you know what.... Seen it many times in kart racing....I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

What did "doing you know what" mean? (if not cheating?)

[Mark Filip]

And someone askto have my post cleaned
Up as it was off topic.

All I was asking for was some constructive information
On some proactive changes I wad going to make to a second Vee/1200
I have .
But I guess any talk or impllemention of change
Damages some egos

Cheers
Desmond

You should ask that question privately or start a new thread it had nothing to do with the topic nor was it in response to anything previously stated.

[Amon]

Jim:

You mean what the word "is" means by one of our past Presidents!

Mark

[tlandon]

Depends on your meaning of "what".

You all know what I meant. It is what it is. What it is, I don't know for sure.

What ever it is, it ain't right.

I am not going to run in a class that's supposed to and used to be the cheapest class to run in the SCCA when;

An engine without carb and intake costs $11k
A former front runners car that would cost me $20K
A set of tires for the car that costs over $700
Entry fee that's $500 or more
Have to race with other classes that are Waaay faster than me(no fun). Plus, now they want to add another class!
Have to race with a guy that is magically around 2 seconds or more a lap faster
than everyone else at almost all tracks, not just RA(That's a horsepower track, right?).
Yada, Yada, Yada.

So, in the end I guess I wont be racing in the SCCA. And I wont be spectating because they wont let me in, and I cant tell who won that last race. 3 guys had checkered flags after the race was over?

But, don't fret. I don't have a job, so I wont be racing anything. I know you're all disappointed. And I promise not to post anymore on this site. Good Luck to you all.

[Amon]

Tlandon:

Sounds like a bunch of BS excuses why YOU won't race! To refute your statement:

1.) Most National engines can be purchase for around $3500, and you can upgrade
them as time and money allows. (If you don't believe me, check Jim Schings post).

2.)There are other cars available that are Nationally competitive in the $9 - 11K range!

3.) I buy used tires with 2-3 heat cycles that cost me around $225.00 per set!

4.) Only the Majors which are Double Nationals cost that much! Most Nationals are in the
$350.00 range.

5.) Deal with it! We all have to run with faster classes and if you improve as a driver, then
you'll be lapped less!

6.) Mike V. is more than two seconds faster than you and if i would guess, probably around
3=4 seconds faster! But he didn't become fast overnight and has worked on his skills and
car for many years to get to the point he's now one of the fastest FV driver's!

7.) Yada, Yada B.S is all I hear from you. You're MORE interested in finding reason's NOT
to race than actually finding reason's TO race!!! Excuses are like as###les, everyone has
them and they all stink.
If you don't want to race, then more power to you, but quite insulting Mike V. and others
like him who have worked hard, spent a lot of their own time and money to be successful
in the class!!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1
02" Citation

[sracing]

While on the subject of that word (cheating): Of the literally hundred or so engines I have rebuilt, I have never seen one of the front pack drivers have one that was illegal. I HAVE seen a few back markers that had some issues. Even in those cases it was typically a rod set under by a couple grams or deck height average off by a bit. etc. Nothing of significance. (I HAVE seen a 1200 with a big cam and one with 1.25 rockers, but they weren't winning races and they weren't $12,000 engines

[gbmetcalf]

I agree with Jim.
In the 15 years I was a national tech inspector I seldom found any of the top 5 cheating.
But we are swaying off the subject of this thread.
I'm all for looking into the future and trying to be proactive about what we can do to prolong ACVW racing. I have very little seat time, but I want more I don't care if it is in a FV or a FST just let me race my air cooled VW motor somewhere.

JMHO
G.

While on the subject of that word (cheating): Of the literally hundred or so engines I have rebuilt, I have never seen one of the front pack drivers have one that was illegal. I HAVE seen a few back markers that had some issues. Even in those cases it was typically a rod set under by a couple grams or deck height average off by a bit. etc. Nothing of significance. (I HAVE seen a 1200 with a big cam and one with 1.25 rockers, but they weren't winning races and they weren't $12,000 engines

[grapefarmeral]

This post has been all over the map...From cheating to $11,000 motors, Blah, Blah, ...Blah

The following is areprint of the FIRST TWO paragraphs, Page 298 of the GCR under:

C: FORMULA VEE PREPARATION RULES

1. Background

A. History and philosophy of the class
Formula Vee was recognized by SCCA in 1963. The class is highly restricted, originally requiring the use of genuine VW parts "from the standard Volkswagen 1200 Sedan Series type 1, US model sedan as imported by VW" in the engine, drivetrain and suspension. Over the years, the rules have changed slowly to maintain parts availability and allow a gradual evolution of the class. However, the focus remains the same: to provide a cost effective, highly competitive class that, through consistent and tightly controlled component and preparation rules, emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development of the car. Today, as throughout its long history, FV is one of the most highly subscribed classes in SCCA. The goal of these rules is to maintain both the competitiveness and cost effectiveness of the class.

B. Definition
A formula for single seat, open wheel racing cars based on standard Volkswagen 1200 series Type 1, U.S. model sedan (imported by VW) components, and restrictive in specifications so as to emphasize driver ability and preparation rather than design and technology of the car.

Of primary interest is the SECOND from last sentence in the first paragraph and the entire second paragraph.

"Emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development of the car" I believe this is not only the letter but the spirit of the rules... The figures of $12,000 for a new motor and a used motor for $11,000 is ludicrous... I'm not saying they aren't worth it, just that it's not necessary... Poor mike has been beaten up over the cost of his motor. Very unfair. Mike has worked hard at this sport and has been a bridesmaid at the runoffs more times than I'm sure he cares to remember. Does the $11,000 motor help him run at the front...most definitely. Do others have $11,000 motors (some with higher $$$$ motor) most assuredly. But the fine balance as I see it is that perhaps there is someone that can't spend that kind of money or that kind of time to spend that has that kind of talent.. We shouldn't be, as the rules have stated a class that is technology or design driven. We are not a class that's a stepping stone to anywhere except the Runoffs and bankruptcy if costs continue to soar...

It seems that every country has moved ahead (except us) ...Ireland, Australia & UK 1600 , ball joints, disc brakes, Germany with the, I believe, Polo water cooled and ball joints and they still call themselves FORMULA VEE... A quick Google search for Polo motors came up with a site:

http://www.gex.com/vw-golf-engines.htm
the cost of a NEW motor $1899... an even better price than the Honda Fit engine...

Do the math $12000 for a new Quicksilver motor (and worth every penny...Eric has overhead, machine upkeep, R&D time to recover.......) add to that $1300 for a manifold and maybe another $7-800 for a really good carb and we have a MOTOR that's over $14,000. We've all seen shunts where the motor came into contact with the wall, pavement, another car,..... and the motor was junk.. who needs a race weekend like that...

Now mark said you can pick up a good National motor for $3500 and he's right...you can add to that and upgrade overtime, etc, etc... Now start adding up what you spend to go racing every weekend till you can afford to upgrade ...

Just because you can doesn't mean you should... I've got 5 beams in my barn (no they're not for sale) drums, dozens of turkey legs and spindles and I'd give them up (for the right price) in a heartbeat for disc brakes and ball joints. I have a monster many and another great Kohanski that I use in Canada that I would make into lamps for the shop tomorrow,if a spec manifold was approved ..

I believe with changes made to keep costs down Mike V, Steven D, Brad, Gary B would be at the front still, but the others would be really, really close behind... and that's the way it should be...

[eospeed]

"Do the math $12000 for a new Quicksilver motor (and worth every penny...Eric has overhead, machine upkeep, R&D time to recover.......) add to that $1300 for a manifold and maybe another $7-800 for a really good carb and we have a MOTOR that's over $14,000. We've all seen shunts where the motor came into contact with the wall, pavement, another car,..... and the motor was junk.. who needs a race weekend like that..."



Just to be clear for 12k you get an engine with a carb ,intake and clutch




E

[BLS]

Just to be clear for 12k you get an engine with a car...

Do we get our choice of "car"?

[Amon]

BLS:

I think you know that answer!! :

Mark

[eospeed]

Do we get our choice of "car"?

Dont we wish

[grapefarmeral]

Sorry Eric...

[enrikerace]

wow

[RussMcB]

wow

Ay yai yai.

[Bardahl77]

Attack of the zombie thread

[provamo]

electric formula racers kept at solar friendly race tracks