Let's fold FST into FV

[Daryl DeArman]

I would expect that if the prices of $12k for a drivetrain alone were even close I would have had a stampede just for the engines. Not to mention all of the mentioned parts that are claimed to be unobtainable that I have duplicates of yet no one is in a hurry to buy.

FV folks seem to fall into two distinct categories:

(1) Those who have more parts than they'll need in their lifetime (they don't need your stuff)

and

(2) Those who don't even have a set of spare spark plugs or cap in their trailer (they aren't your target market).

[sracing]

It is over $7K for sure. If it is under that you are not getting what you asked for OR the builder is losing money....

In the case of the builder who was asking $12K, he had a very successful season and felt he could ask that. I was told he sold at least 2 at that price. Whatever the market will bear is fair. I don't think you need a 12K motor to win any FV race. You could certainly win them with a $5K used motor. But you can't buy a freshly built one from any current builder for under $7K, if that.

[sracing]

All the money is in heads, manifold, carb and exhaust, all the rest of the motor parts are dirt cheap.

Case $800, (available new), cranks, $300 to $500, P&C's after prepping $400+, balanced lightened rods with ARP's $400+. Not "DIRT" cheap...

Yep, you can often find these parts used (usually un-prepped) for less, but if you buy a complete "National" engine from a builder that is where they will be.

I buy or build many parts in quantity and sell wholesale to a couple of the builders. ARP's , Ring sets, oil manifold block, valve springs, etc. Almost $500 alone. When you buy a new engine you need all that. A used engine goes for only what the market will allow. So sure you can find some deals. (typically from someone who is getting out of FV racing)

[Agitator]

I'll just bail out of the conversation of whether a competitive engine costs over $10K because I don't think we're being realistic stipulating "new" and including exhaust, etc. All I know is that I can buy a Runoffs proven and capable COMPLETE car for the price people are claiming for a "new" engine. You would be absolutely retarded (no, not "mentally challenged") if you paid $12K for an engine alone. If someone has actually paid that for one then good for the builder.

[gbmetcalf]

I have been around FV for quite a long time. Not racing but admiring, and studying. I joined the SCCA because of the FV class. I am building a new FST, and have a 91 Mysterian FV I am preparing for my driver's schools. I come from a ACVW family. When I first got involved in the SCCA in 1981 FV was begining to come into their own with this costs started to creep up, but now I am lucky enough to be able to afford a regional/national engine. But I opted not to spring for the $1200 manifold. To me paying $1200 on two pieces of tubing is just crazy. I can see $4000 - $6500 for an engine, I expect that building a quality engine is expensive. A spec manifold and spec tire might be a good starting point. And YES we need more younguns like Chris, and Terran.

JMHO
G.

[jim murphy]

I strongly agree with Stan's assessment on how classes have died and add this:

From a F600 outsider's point of view your engine costs are in another GALAXY they are so wonked out!! One of the BIG reasons we have so much interest is that I can buy today on EBay a Suzuki GSXR600 complete with EFI, airbox, ECU with complete harness, header and built-in 6 speed sequential transmission, used with about 100 miles on it (not even broken in) for $900 SHIPPED to my door. AND it will have 4 valves per cylinder, full circle crank and be capable of turning 14,000 RPM ALL DAY LONG. AND there are MILLIONS of 600's from all four bike makers sold every year!!
The oval track guys have been racing them reliably for many years as well. So what if I blow it up, I just go buy another at these prices!!

And that is just ONE aspect of F600, we also have: purpose built race chassis, wide sticky tires for $160 each, paddle sequential shifter, rack/pinion steering box, disk brakes, radiator, oil cooler, side pods (makes packaging a whole lot easier) and an one piece rear axle with effective rubber puck suspension to keep the costs down all for about $25K ready to race at FF lap times. This is pretty hard to beat for the price.

And then the ouside potential customer looks at your current FV package and the choice FOR HIM becomes obvious - F600!

Don't get me wrong - I LIKE FST's with some more speed because the class will become more attractive to our outside potential customers when compared to F600's.
BUT, F600 will grow very fast and even faster with our money race series getting off the ground and in a very few years, IF you, as a class, do not convert to FST+, you will become a vintage class.

THIS IS THE WRITING ON THE WALL - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

Jim
Been messing with F5's/F6's since 1982.

[dc]

Stan, how many times have you raced your FV?

Greg, I know where you are going with this, and it's a bad direction. That's like a pro athlete saying that the fans, media or broadcasters can't have an opinion or viewpoint because, "they never played the game." Bull pucky.

It's impossible to read the label from inside the jar.

The problem is not exposure or marketing. The problem is not speed. The problem is not costs, or the economy (although it is not helping). The problem is not old technology.

The problem with FV is that the people making the major decisions for the future of the class are the dyed-in-the-wool old-timers with garages full of hoarded out-of-production parts. They are looking out only for their best interests, and have been for well over a decade. The people making the decisions for the future of the class are the same people who stand to lose the most with any change, progress, development or updates.




You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.

[sracing]

I'll just bail out of the conversation of whether a competitive engine costs over $10K because I don't think we're being realistic )

I think everyone agrees with that. BUT, if you are talking getting a fresh engine from a builder you ARE talking +$7K.

You would be absolutely retarded (no, not "mentally challenged") if you paid $12K for an engine alone..

Well, I wouldn't pay that, but some have. But it's not the real issue here, since the fact that those engines exist has little to do with the future of FV needs.

[sracing]

Greg, I know where you are going with this, and it's a bad direction.

Really..

The problem with FV is that the people making the major decisions for the future of the class are the dyed-in-the-wool old-timers with garages full of hoarded out-of-production parts. They are looking out only for their best interests, and have been for well over a decade. The people making the decisions for the future of the class are the same people who stand to lose the most with any change, progress, development or updates.

Certainly a piece of it.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, how many times have you raced your FV?

Greg, I know where you are going with this, and it's a bad direction.

Really..

I missed that at the bottom of page 4, but in any case I don't mind answering.

Greg, I've raced my FV exactly the same number of times I've raced the 2003 Runoffs and President's Cup winning Formula Atlantic I've owned for 15 years, and exactly the same number of times I raced the CSR I prepped and guided to a 2005 Runoffs win: zero.

Feel all morally superior now?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I too have been around for a long time (1981 member #83367) and my son is one of those FV kids that races because of me. He does enjoy it but probably would have never been interested if not for my interest.

IMHO FV needs (has needed for years) a dictator. This dictator has to make every decision based on only one goal, the best interest of the class, not the best interest of a few. The inmates have been running the asylum and it appears that it is to late to recover from all of the bad (or lack of any) decisions. Part of this decline is natural obsolescence, part is bad decision making. As Daryl mentioned above, one of the groups that are consistently against any changes are the ones that have 20 years of spare parts sitting in there garage. If I had 20 years of spare parts I probably would not want any changes either, however, at some point we need someone to save us from our self's.

I am a 30+ year FV guy that has decided to put my future efforts into FST. The founders of FST saw these FV issues over 10 years ago. Remember the founders of FST were all FV guys. They realized that FV is never going to accept any change (which it has not) so decided to come up with there own idea of what FV should be. FST is FV, just a more modern version. I can buy virtually every new part I need for my FST at the local buggy shop down the street. I have no desire to go to junk yards to purchase my race car parts.

I think we should fold FV into FST, not fold FST into FV as the title says.

[eospeed]

I think everyone agrees with that. BUT, if you are talking getting a fresh engine from a builder you ARE talking +$7K.



Well, I wouldn't pay that, but some have. But it's not the real issue here, since the fact that those engines exist has little to do with the future of FV needs.

I wont\ cant build a first class FV engine with a top flight intake and carb for less than 12k. That's a real number. Intake carb and case all new is almost 3k alone.


Erik

[eospeed]

I wont\ cant build a first class FV engine with a top flight intake and carb for less than 12k. That's a real number. Intake carb and case all new is almost 3k alone.


Erik

I should add that is a motor that you can race 20 times before a rebuild.

[Steve Davis]

...The problem with FV is that the people making the major decisions for the future of the class are the dyed-in-the-wool old-timers with garages full of hoarded out-of-production parts. They are looking out only for their best interests, and have been for well over a decade. The people making the decisions for the future of the class are the same people who stand to lose the most with any change, progress, development or updates...

Sorry Doug and Greg... and others. I have to disagree with you on that. The people making the decisions .. or NON decisions are the SCCA FV Community. The Committee since inception has proposed (at least)... not in any particular order...
1). Disc Brakes
2). Spec Manifold
3). Spec Tire
All of which have been argued here. In EVERY case, the response from those that bothered to "cast a vote" (however that might have been handled) was an emphatic NO. The only one that even had a chance was the spec tire and it was so divided as to WHAT might be an appropriate tire/wheel that it was untenable.

I agree that what FV needs is a 'dictator'.. however, it would appear from the responses and LACK of responses that one of 2 things would happen...
1). The class would CHANGE and FLOURISH
or
2). The class would immediately DIE. (Again.. the largest and most active open wheel class in SCCA .. STILL - even after the continuing decline that Stan has pointed out).

I have some parts on hand .. I'm also OUT of some parts. I'm willing to CHANGE (within reason) to further the class. The rest of the Committee appears to be 'on the same page' with me. But EVERY time we attempt to make a change, we either get NO response .. or NEGATIVE response from the membership. In the most recent "re" proposal of disc brakes the response was almost nil (like 5 people). That COULD be construed as "well.. OK .. if we HAVE to".. or it could be construed as "I don't give a damn - if you force me to change, I'm QUITTING".

For my personal option.. I'm starting to think about alternative avenues for racing FV ... Like the Vintage groups. I'm betting that they would be quite happy to create a new class for current cars within their groups. I just got an email where one of the groups were offering 'test track time' to CLOSED WHEEL cars .. presumably to reduce their rental costs for the track weekend.

Who wants to be CZAR and take a chance on completely KILLING the class (in SCCA)?
Steve, FV80

[Daryl DeArman]

Case $800, (available new), cranks, $300 to $500, P&C's after prepping $400+, balanced lightened rods with ARP's $400+. Not "DIRT" cheap...

It's all relative Jim. You can't buy a sack of groceries and fill up your gas tank for $3.00 anymore either and I wasn't around when you could buy an entire FV motor for $250.00

To me, those prices are dirt cheap relative to the total of the expensive bits.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have some parts on hand .. I'm also OUT of some parts. I'm willing to CHANGE (within reason) to further the class. The rest of the Committee appears to be 'on the same page' with me. But EVERY time we attempt to make a change, we either get NO response .. or NEGATIVE response from the membership. In the most recent "re" proposal of disc brakes the response was almost nil (like 5 people). That COULD be construed as "well.. OK .. if we HAVE to".. or it could be construed as "I don't give a damn - if you force me to change, I'm QUITTING".

Steve, from reading the committee minutes every month it's apparent to me, that those on the committee are trying to do what's best for the long term success of the class. When there isn't consensus from the membership what can you do? Remember half these people don't have a spare set of spark plugs....you think they are concerned that they may not be able to get a new P&C set a couple of years from now?

The solution to get the membership to write letters is to say "this is what we are going to suggest, if you oppose write a letter. All those who don't write will be counted as "YES" votes. Easy-peasy

[Bill Bonow]

Remember the founders of FST were all FV guys. They realized that FV is never going to accept any change (which it has not) so decided to come up with there own idea of what FV should be. FST is FV, just a more modern version.

Yep, in a nut shell, that is all it is.

[Stan Clayton]

Who wants to be CZAR and take a chance on completely KILLING the class (in SCCA)?

Thank you for your service on the FV Committee, Steve. I know from personal experience that it's often a thankless task.

My advice is to use your bully pulpit to exercise leadership. You guys have good ideas, and yes they have to and should be run by the membership, but at the end of the day it is not a popularity contest. Falling into that trap will only lead to more of the paralysis that has plagued the class for two decades. Specifically, grab the bull by the horns and:

Recommend a spec tire to the CRB, not a "what do you think" request to the members.

Recommend a spec manifold to the CRB, not a "what do you think" request to the members. Alternatively, and even cheaper, recommend a 27mm inlet FST-style restrictor under the carb and let folks run whatever intake they want.

Recommend disc brakes to the CRB, not a "what do you think" request to the members.

Recommend mandatory 360-degree front bulkheads, upper frame rails ahead of the front roll hoop, along with better triangulation along the sides and from the front roll hoop forward, like FF and every other tube frame formula class requires. FV frames look like ladder frames from before WW2, and offer drivers about the same protection. The practice of deliberately sacrificing safety in the name of getting the weight down low is nothing short of a scandal in my opinion.

There are no doubt other issues, but that's essence of it. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

[FVRacer21]

Who wants to be CZAR and take a chance on completely KILLING the class (in SCCA)?
Steve, FV80

You can't afford me.

Chris ZARzycki

[FVRacer21]

And that is just ONE aspect of F600, we also have: purpose built race chassis, wide sticky tires for $160 each, paddle sequential shifter, rack/pinion steering box, disk brakes, radiator, oil cooler, side pods (makes packaging a whole lot easier) and an one piece rear axle with effective rubber puck suspension to keep the costs down all for about $25K ready to race at FF lap times. This is pretty hard to beat for the price.

$25K?

I could race for 4 years for that and still buy new tires!

Yes, a brand new FV built from a kit with all "new" parts costs over $20,000. But a lot of that is mandatory safety equipment - fuel cells, fire systems, side protection. Expensive shocks (you can run with a under $500 for all three), expensive bake shoes ($400 instead of $60.00), Less machining (you don't need offset bushing and ride height adjusters to run), Trick bodywork, (Kevlar, complicated molds - during the "high-point" of the 90's many were doing sheet aluminum bodies) mechanical gauges rather than data acquisition systems. etc.

Right now there is more supply than demand - that will be the reality for at least the next few years, until attrition and old age takes out most of the cars - I would guess the average age of a FV running in nationals is about 15 years old, and in regional about 20. The cars from the 70's have gone vintage so they are already gone- it is the cars from the 80's that will need replacement next.

The vintage guys should give the D13 it's own class and that will bring out a hundred cars out of the woodwork overnight. The other option is an update kit for the D-13 and bring those cars back into active competition (although some have still done well in recent years, (Jim, Andy and Nick)

ChrisZ

[Garry Sharp]

Here's one thing we need to find out-how many mothballed FV/FST cars and mothballed FV/FST drivers would be:less likely, the same likely, more likely, or definitely likely- to return to racing if they KNEW that EVERY race they entered would a FV/FST run group. It would be cheap (free) and easy to find out. All the race organisers would have to do is freaking type in a few letters in the right order at the top of the schedule for Christ sake. We could A: take a survey or B: try a mandated FV/FST run group for a season and see if it made a positive difference. I think FV and FST is your midlife crisis, bucket list or limited $ young guys who want to drive an open wheel racecar around world class tracks. Most of them want to have fun and learn-not necessarily go to the runoffs. Well you can't have fun or learn with one of these stupid and dangerous all formula run groups. You are removing the very reason a lot of guys started in the first place, and the motivation to get back out there! The best fun I ever had on a track was racing my FST (slightly faster car, slower driver) against Stevan Davis (slightly slower car, much faster diver). These opportunities can still exist. When my car is finished, and providing I can still afford it, the only thing that will definitely make me NOT go to a race, is one of theses criminally negligent run groups. This is at least ONE thing that can be easily tried.

One more thing, people are talking about speeding up FV/FST so we can run closer to the bottom end of a faster run group. Let's face it a lot of the people who are in or would choose these classes don't WANT or NEED to go any faster. What we need is more cars on the track in this "Junior Formula."

Thanks, Garry

[Chris Elwell]

$25K?

I could race for 4 years for that and still buy new tires!

Yes, a brand new FV built from a kit with all "new" parts costs over $20,000. But a lot of that is mandatory safety equipment - fuel cells, fire systems, side protection. Expensive shocks (you can run with a under $500 for all three), expensive bake shoes ($400 instead of $60.00), Less machining (you don't need offset bushing and ride height adjusters to run), Trick bodywork, (Kevlar, complicated molds - during the "high-point" of the 90's many were doing sheet aluminum bodies) mechanical gauges rather than data acquisition systems. etc.



ChrisZ

That $25k is a brand new car. A converted F5 is much less. Probably not much different than the total cost of a FST conversion (including what you sell off). And then you have $900 drivetrains well into the future.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

From a F600 outsider's point of view your engine costs are in another GALAXY they are so wonked out!! One of the BIG reasons we have so much interest is that I can buy today on EBay a Suzuki GSXR600 complete with EFI, airbox, ECU with complete harness, header and built-in 6 speed sequential transmission, used with about 100 miles on it (not even broken in) for $900 SHIPPED to my door. AND it will have 4 valves per cylinder, full circle crank and be capable of turning 14,000 RPM ALL DAY LONG. AND there are MILLIONS of 600's from all four bike makers sold every year!!
The oval track guys have been racing them reliably for many years as well. So what if I blow it up, I just go buy another at these prices!!

Just wait until you have 40 F600's all competing for a runoffs win. Those $900 engines will no longer get the job done. A lot of what you are paying for in FV engine is the years of knowledge and tweaking that has gone into squeezing every bit of HP out of them. That's the nature of development. Which is also the driver of costs in racing. Your $900 engines will soon become $2000 engines when someone spends a season playing on the dyno and figures out how to get another 3-4HP. Then the following season, someone will figure something else out, and the new hot trick will be worth an extra $500....and so it goes. The circle of life. Or what happens when guys start buying 5 of them to sort them on the dyno?

All classes start out with the intention of being cheap. No one sits down and says, hey, I'm going to make this class and make it using expensive parts. It's the competition and development that makes it expensive. Rules can be written to try and limit it, but in the end, there is no stopping price creep in any competitive series. It just eventually reaches a point where a reset is in order.

[racerdad2]

That's it. Time & 'feature creep'. We just can't leave well enough alone...

[FVRacer21]

That $25k is a brand new car. A converted F5 is much less. Probably not much different than the total cost of a FST conversion (including what you sell off). And then you have $900 drivetrains well into the future.

The problem with selling off the FV parts when you do a conversion - what happens when there is no one to buy them? If you make it mandatory to switch- you just raised the price of a current conversion by 50% or more.

And 25K probably is not bad for a race car in today's economy. A FV in the 60s probably cost about $2500. when the average American car cost about $2500. Since that figure is around $25,000 today, the comparison for car cost is accurate. What it does not reflect is the cost around running the car - travel fees, entry fees, etc.

Some things have gotten cheaper - a $3000 laptop is now $500., but most of racing has gone up.

Chris Z

[BLS]

Chris,

1973,
purchased a new Zink kit - $1500
beat up 63 beetle w low oil pressure - $150
used FV engine - $600
tranny prep - $200

total $2450 + some other stuff which I cannot remember the prices. I know I bought 4 new wheels from the VW dealer for maybe 10-15 each. A set of tires back then, about $600 as I recall. I do know the total with a set of new tires was close to $3000

good enough to place 6th in my first regional race at Road Atlanta in a field of 20+

$3000 in 1973 is equal to 12 - 16K in 2013 depending upon whose figures you use.
The price of FV racing really hasn't changed that much...

edit, actually it is going to be a bit less. Currently I have maybe $6500 in the Citation I'm rebuilding plus a lot of labor... I did have some 30+ year old parts that a new guy would not have... And the cost of used cars is very low right now.

[grapefarmeral]

This thread has been beaten to death for how many years...?

I vote for Czar Steven Davis.....

I vote for tires that are hard as a rock and will last for ever... I heard Legends cars are tire limited... Which is a great idea. The Yamaha motors (cheap) have about 140 HP...way more than the tires can handle so if someone wants to play on the dyno...go ahead, because it wont help...

Second thought lets elect Brian France as our Czar.... we'll have TV coverage, large purses, but we will have to use the word awesome till we're blue in the face.....

[B Farnham]

A spec manifold and tire (harder obviously) would go a long way. Does FV sound that attractive to a potential racer when you have to spend $1000 for a little piece of thin tubing and $700 per weekend on new tires? Of course not. It certainly wouldn't hurt to cut costs, maybe it would get some of the cars that have become garage queens back on the track.

Also what about bringing back Pro FV to run in the same series as Pro F1600 and Pro 2000? I'm sure that you could get much more exposure with a series like that and could make changes to the rules much quicker and easier.

[Stan Clayton]

FV does not permit the OEM ball-joint front beam. Can anyone explain the rationale? Just curious is all. TIA

[sracing]

FV does not permit the OEM ball-joint front beam. Can anyone explain the rationale? Just curious is all. TIA

I doubt there was any rationale. The link pin beams started it and they had been cheap and plentiful for a long time. A Ball joint beam is heavier and the mounting holes of off a bit (vertically) from the existing FV chassis holes. Shock towers on the BJ beam are even uglier than the Link pin towers Obviously for racing it is a much better geometry and strength setup , (with tower removed.) but there hasn't been any real need for BJ beams so far.
(And it's not just the beam alone, since it is 1/2 inch wider, you need torsion and spring pack set-up, plus spindles. And there are two types of spindles (drum and disc). SO... that is why We just bit the bullet in FST and did it. (saves money in the long run and we know parts are cheaper/safer and available.)

[Steve Davis]

FV does not permit the OEM ball-joint front beam. Can anyone explain the rationale? Just curious is all. TIA

It had not been invented when the class started and the rules have not been changed since. The Committee has recently proposed that we add the BJ beam (with disc brakes) to the rules. The conversion is NOT "trivial" since the beam spacing is different between the 2. That generally means that the nose bodywork would have to be modified as well as the mounting points for the beam. Our biggest question at the moment is whether to also allow LP conversion kits to disc brakes at the same time. The concern is whether the kits are "good enough" to stand up to the rigors of RACING. We have confidence in the VW BJ assembly .. not so much with some of the LP kits we've seen. My thought at this moment is .. to ALLOW them, but RECOMMEND against them - we'll discuss it further in our next conference call.

Steve, FV80

[SamF]

FV does not permit the OEM ball-joint front beam. Can anyone explain the rationale? Just curious is all. TIA

But Stan ball joint beams are very expensive, but you can get one at any buggy shop. Right now they are on sale at Appletree VW for a whopping $253.12, which is for a stock replacement complete front beam with reconditioned spindles, setup for disc brakes. You would need to add an adjuster for $15 and some welding. http://www.appletreeauto.com/BALL-JO...ONT-BEAM-DISC/

Just my 2 cents worth this is not my fight I am very happy where I am.

[sracing]

But Stan ball joint beams are very expensive, but you can get one at any buggy shop. Right now they are on sale at Appletree VW for a whopping $253.12, which is for a stock replacement complete front beam with reconditioned spindles, setup for disc brakes. You would need to add an adjuster for $15 and some welding. .

You meant IN-expensive? Or sarcasm ?

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks guys. I had presumed it was something like Steve's explanation.

I meant to add that I recently picked up a Ghia front BJ beam, complete with shocks and disc brakes (wide 5) for my Vee Sports Racer (in the P2 class) project, and it is considerably heavier than the spare LP beams that came with my car. I can't imagine that a BJ w/disc brakes has any competitive advantage over a LP with drums.

[dd46637]

Sarcasm, most certainly.

[BLS]

If the BJ beam is allowed, what wheel will be used? I think all BJ disk brake spindles were for rotors with the 4 bolt pattern (drum type as well).

[Steve Davis]

If the BJ beam is allowed, what wheel will be used? I think all BJ disk brake spindles were for rotors with the 4 bolt pattern (drum type as well).

As indicated in last month's Conf call minutes, we are thinking that the BJ beam will be an 'in toto' change for disc brakes. BJ Beam.. disc brakes, 4 bolt (wider) wheels, etc. We have not discussed whether to allow cutting the shock towers off, but most likely it will have to remain stock - at least for the moment.

Step 2 - at a later time - might be to add some or all of the other allowances (alternate wheels, shock tower modification, etc).

Steve, FV80

[BLS]

I know there is a 4.5 inch wide wheel, no wider than the 4.5 already allowed. I do not know what the spacing issues are. Just curious.

Those shock towers are ugly...

[sracing]

I can't imagine that a BJ w/disc brakes has any competitive advantage over a LP with drums.

Aside from the weight issue (BJ heavier with the shock towers). There is an advantage. They hold camber in a turn. . Disc brakes work great. but whether they are a performance advantage (on a Vee) or not is arguable. $15 vs. $150 for brakes is an advantage

[sracing]

If the BJ beam is allowed, what wheel will be used? I think all BJ disk brake spindles were for rotors with the 4 bolt pattern (drum type as well).

You can get the spindles in drum or disc version. In the aftermarket, rotors are available in several patterns and undrilled, so you can drill to anything you want.