Ahem.....cough.....Originally Posted by Tiago Santos
Ahem.....cough.....
Re: Let's fold FST into FV
I second the emotion of a separate run group for FV / FST... also liked acronym, Secret Car Club of America... aptly describes my recent experiences... "Pssst. Keep this road racing thing on the down low. We don't want anyone watching what we're doing." "God forbid, they might want to come join us...."
"An analog man living in a digital world"
The fact that 7 or 8 years in, you still think you qualify as a recent newcomer to the class sorta proves my pointbesides, what car are you driving now? :P
Terran isn't the only young one. Alex Rizer has been doing really well this year. Myself, Brian Farnham and Chris Quinteros are in different stages of building our programmes. I think I'm the oldest at 24. Who cares if some of us had fathers that raced, at least we're adding entries or plan to. It doesn't happen over night; I seem to recall Stevan Davis saying on here that it took him 7-8 years to reach the front.
Chris
That's great, but you're missing the point when I said that it does matter that all of you (most?) had fathers in the class. How sure are you that you'd even know what a formula Vee is?
Why would it take 7 years to reach the front in FV when kids are stepping into an F2000 out of karting and winning their first pro races? Are FVs really that much harder to drive than a continental..? Really? Or is it that it takes that long to figure out that vees are really not as cheap or simple as we were told, that you need to know the right people and spend the right amount of money on a good engine/manifold/carb, etc. It boggles my mind that we collectively believe that a 16 year old kid can step into a car with 150hp and wings, incredibly complex and sensitive setup options, a whole bunch of gears and win, but it would take him 7 years to figure out how to drive a Vee.
I was also asking about guys that are winning or really challenging at the national level, since that seemed to be what MV was implying. That FV should try to attract the serious racers with money and time to dedicate to a truly competitive program. Otherwise I would have included myself, but I'm realistically not at that level by a long shot.
If you want to run up front in any type of racing you're going to have to spend a lot of money. The young kids running Pro2000/USF2000 are not your average Joe's. They have someone backing them writing a lot of checks and have top cars so that really isn't a good comparison.
I'm sure if some of us started out with a top national level car we would be running up front, but that's not always possible. I'm fine with having to build my car up, I've already learned a lot and it's a challenge for me. Nothing worth having comes easy.
Brian
You're assuming that both situations are fully funded. Is a 16 year old in F2000 paying for that himself? If someone paid all my bills, I could shorten the time frame significantly. And no, my father didn't race FV, or anything for that matter.
Guys,
Great thread with lots of good input and over 4000 views in 5 days! And most impressive is that everyone is being pleasant and courteous, thanks. The FV area of Apexspeed has become quite popular due to this topic.
We are wandering a bit off topic. That topic being: A letter has been sent to the CRB asking for FST and FV to be combined into a single class.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Thank you, Bill.
Without claiming that any firm consensus has emerged, several take-aways have floated up to the top:
1. FST guys don't want their class slowed down, dumbed down or otherwise messed with. They have the magic trifecta in place: their cars are cheap, reliable and fast (enough), and they'd be perfectly happy to be folded into FV as is.
2. FV still suffers from the same split personality that's afflicted it for at least the 15 years I've observed it. On the one side are those who see it as a typically open ended formula class: if you're not bringing enough gun to the fight, dig deeper. On the other hand are those who see it as a class that was supposed to stay affordable and fun, but sticky gumball tires, 5-way adjustable dampers and twelve-thousand dollar engines have ruined everybody's fun.
3. Virtually all agree that FST is "doing some things right", but many FV guys, even those who admire FST, are nervous about walking down the isle. That reluctance is understandable, of course, since spending seven-thousand or so to convert a car worth not much more than that seems a pretty big pill to swallow to gain 2 seconds a lap.
So I'm going to amend my proposal to the CRB by dropping my suggestion that the inlet restrictor be reduced. Be sure to write the CRB when and if the proposal comes up for comment.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Thanks Stan !
Thanks Stan for bringing up a very touchy subject within a frame work that promoted some much needed constructive dialogue.
This post was awesome.I strongly disagree with the above. FV has survived for 50 years on the promise of cheap, close racing. Obviously we're not gonna get minimum wage folks racing with us anytime soon, but why would anyone with a significant amount of money start racing FV when, for little if any more money, they could race a FF or FC? It's laughable that a "new" FV motor can cost 12 grand. It's laughable that our motors can barely go a full season before they need fairly expensive rebuilds.
I'm all for doing passionate stuff, but good luck with the approach of pitching FV as a true test of manliness and dedication. How many new, serious FV programmes have you seen lately? How many drivers have arrived at the class with no previous FV affiliation (no sons of old FV drivers, no guys who had raced 30 years ago who finally retired with a bunch of time and money) and REALLY went for it, and got to the front at the runoffs or at Majors?
Maybe my field of vision is limited, but other than Terran on the West Coast, I can't think of anyone else. Actually scratch that - his dad was already an FV guy.
Anyone with that much time or money is racing the F1600 and F2000 pro series. Is that the crowd we'd like to cater to? Good. Freaking. Luck.
Another theme I see from time to time is subtly implying that kids these days are lazy and don't have the focus, drive or passion required to be a good racer.Yes, cause we kids have it so easy now
Here's a recap of my take on things - feel free to disregard it based on the naivety of my youth, my lack of experience or my political orientation:
- FV was the cheapest and most popular way to race an open wheel car. The parts were cheap and plentiful, the maintenance was easily done with cheap and freely available tools, the setups were uncomplicated (no corner balancing, alignments to the nearest inch)
- All of that has mostly changed. The costs are steadily rising, and the class has become increasingly technical. Fancy shocks, sticky tires, wind tunnel aero, etc.
- While some of the technology has advanced steadily, the other half has stayed firmly in the 60's. For younger people, things that are black magic, weird or ugly include drum brakes, carbs, suspension setups that don't resemble anything they are likely to ever see anywhere else..
- If you imagine a venn diagram with one side representing people who like playing with shock dyno plots, reading and analysing data, worrying about drag coefficients and the consistency rating of wheel bearing grease; the other side representing people who enjoy going to VW graveyards and buying rusty parts from the samba; the intersection of both will be pretty darn small. If you add another circle for people under 50yo with an annual income >100k, an incredible passion for racing and lots of spare time, you come up with... Hmm.. Yeah.
- FV does not have to be expensive and there have been clear suggestions of how to make it cheaper along the years. Spec manifolds, spec/street tires, increased minimum weight (mostly to discourage spending $$ on lighter stuff and keeping older, heavier cars closer to target). Some of these work very well in other parts of the world, but have been discarded over here.
- The majority of the current FV population is old and has been racing for a long time. The probability that they'll want to give up all the crap they have accumulated (both the physical parts and the years of knowledge) is low.
- Like someone else said, FV has always been racing for the middle class. OK, upper middle class. But the section of the population that was mostly affected by the "recent" financial problems, probably intersects greatly with the kind of people that either raced, or would be interested in racing a vee. Those who couldn't afford it before won't be able to afford it anyway, those who could afford to race a faster car probably weren't affected much.
- Folding FST into FV would be great, but unlikely. It would require some common ground and compromising the status quo of both classes. We couldn't agree on running a spec manifold!!! Incredible, but true. FST has a decent set of rules and a great package according to those who have made the jump. Converting FV to FST completely will cause chaos and we will lose a lot of folks. The FST guys have very little motivation to roll back the changes they've made to their cars. Most of them run together anyway in their little piece of paradise, so other than the couple of lone wolves around the country that would finally have someone to run with, I can't see it happening.
In conclusion - it's a difficult problem to solve, when the problem both isn't clearly defined and appears different to everyone involved. I'm not proposing any new solutions, just felt like going on a rant.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Gen2 FV?
Given the posts here, the idea of FV adopting the components and rules of FST over a period of a few years to achieve a single ACVW class does not look like it could ever happen. The downsides have been pointed out here as well as the known reluctance to make any significant changes to FV. "It is the third largest national class after all, why mess with it?" is often pointed out.
I find it interesting that the 2nd most popular class (with more the 2 times the participation than FV) has set a plan to go to a new engine and a few other improved components over the next 4 years. Testing is being done in '13 and '14. There will be 2 classes in '15 and '16, and back to a single class of Gen3 cars in '17. I like the changes, more power, better rocker arms in the rear. The class is going to be more appealing than it already is.
I don't profess to know how the SRF community at large is accepting this, it seems mostly positive though. Nor do I think this is an apples to apples comparison to FV/FST, but it is not way off. Our testing is done.
Jim
Leave things alone.
Why are people trying to mess with a good thing. At least in the north east. We have good fields of Formula vee. It is a class that is affortable. If you want to stick FST some place remove the restrictor and put them in with the Formula Fords. People really went to the FST to go FASTER not to be Restricted to go Slower. They wanted more stick with bigger tires, bigger breaks to stop faster. They didn't want to make the car Equal to formula vee they wanted a FF on a Budget. I also think we have too many classes. But it is tuff to tell people we are not gonna run that class anymore. Your new toy is now just junk. Just my Opinion Don't Shoot Me.
$12,000 engines???
I'm enjoying hearing the differing opinions about this, and agree that it has remained largely civil...which has been difficult in the past.
One concern I've read at least twice in this thread is the mention of engines costing $12K. Exactly who has paid $12,000 for a vee engine...EVER??
Jeremy Grenier has a Womer with a carbon fiber body, all the fast whizzy bits, with a National caliber engine in it listed on this website for $11K, and is accepting offers. He can't move a first class complete package, yet I'm led to believe I can't buy a stand alone engine for that price? Something doesn't add up. I'm all for embellishing the truth to get my point across at times, but let's not just make something up to do it. If you want to drive newbies away, just spread rumors like that and we're sure to discourage anyone from ever wanting to enter this class.
I'm making plans to get back in the car next year, but I'm going to first put in a call to Rollin Butler (my engine builder) and check on the current cost of a rebuild and fresh back-up engine (no core) and see what he says. If it's $12K, I'll just take my mid-life crisis to another sport.
Since we have had these conversations many times in the past.... where do we go from here, how do we get there and how soon?
Maybe not a bad idea to organize a focused & cordial discussion at the Runoffs this year. We have a large attendance both entered & spectating, we should embrace that.
FV for 2015
FV for 2015? OK, so here’s my two cents. FV is a great class, lots of cars and drivers and usually some close racing at the better-attended events. But it’s not 1984 anymore and the structure of SCCA racing has changed and FV has stayed the same. FV is just too slow for the current structure of SCCA racing. The class was always slow but with our own race group nobody cared and it didn’t show.
Then along came F440 (terrible idea) and it didn’t fit with vees but they were about the same speed. Now F5/F6 has gone through several changes and the cars are 10 seconds a lap quicker than FV. In 1984 the Spec Renault was slower than a vee but they got a new Ford engine and the SRF is almost 5 seconds faster than a vee. The SRF guys paid $5-6,000 for the upgrade. Next year they get a Gen3 engine and another 5 seconds for probably $10,000 this time. The SRF guys will pay to make the change, even if they don’t want to, they will have to.
Some places the vees now run with the small-bore prod cars. But the last round of changes GP went away and ‘limited-prep’ means more displacement. The 948’s in HP became 1298’s and the 1100’s in FP became 1500’s. IT started with ITA-D but ITC & ITD went away and ITB’s are scarce as hens teeth, now what we have is ITS, ITE, and ITR.
Even Formula Ford has become Formula Fit and is about two rules relaxations from being competitive with FM. The Kent engines are going to vintage. And FV is still stuck in 1984 and the slowest cars in any race group it gets put in. Why is FV such a hard sell? The young guys don’t want to spend their money and get lapped by every other class in the race group. Get real.
And along came FST to fix things, but two seconds a lap isn’t going to fix what SCCA has done to the class structure of racing. The existing FV guys are not going to spend the money to build a car that is just as slow as a vee. FST needs to be 10 seconds a lap faster than FV to fit in the current SCCA race group structure. That puts them where they can race with the F5/F6 cars and the Gen3 SRF and lap the 1500cc FP’s. If FST had a solid shot to get the pole with anything in the group except a FFit, and still had the primitive suspension, fixed gearing and cost effectiveness it would be an attractive change to upgrade from FV.
It has the king-pin beam and disc brakes, it just needs to be fast enough to need the disc brakes. I like the R60 slicks rather than radial street tires but that’s just me, they look racy. The engine needs a bulletproof bottom end and some level of head work. But what it really needs is a Bugspray two-barrel. The FF guys are not playing around trying to find a better carb body because their Holley-Weber will deliver more air and fuel than they can possibly use. Put it on a spec intake manifold and forget it.
The last step is one I hate to take because it is the essence of FV driving to me and that is learning to slide a car through a corner in the wrong gear because you only have two and neither one works. But the car to fit the SCCA racing structure in 2015 needs a spec close-ratio gear set. They are available off the shelf or maybe we need a made-to-order one. One set, put them in next time you need synchros. No long box/short box, no 1:22/1:26, just drive the bleepin’ thing like you stole it.
So I say leave FV more or less alone, we have kind of a consensus that the 1200cc FV’s are maxed out as they sit and they have been for thirty years. What I don’t like to see is the FST fitting itself into the same hole that FV has fallen into because SCCA has allowed every other class to run away and get faster every year. Yes, safety is an issue that SCCA has made by increasing the average speed in every race group, but are you any safer going slow in a faster and faster group?
We need to pick a performance level that is attractive to both new and existing drivers. For me that spot is close to the F5/F6, well ahead of the current SRF and hopefully closer to EP than FP. Let young drivers see an FST turning lap times quicker than SM and SRF at a lower cost and less race weekend input and they won’t walk away like they do now. My two cents.
It's almost like someone with the motivation to stay in business sees the need to make and implement long range plans for their class...
In the words of Glenn Beck, "I'm just asking questions here."
Joking aside, congrats ... NEDiv DOES have good FV participation. In fact, it's 25% better than the next healthiest division, and 8 times better than the weakest. But it's also true that in spite of some recovery in the past two years FV has been on a steady slide for 20 years, so IMO it stands to reason for people to start asking questions that could lead to the changes needed to assure FV DOES have a healthy future.
I don't know who else quoted that number, but I got my info from a trusted source who is a former FV driver -- and who does not have anything to do with FST (if you're wondering). He acknowledged that one can buy a new "National engine" for about $7k, but that if you want an engine capable of being on the podium at the Runoffs, engine builders are telling customers to budget $11k to $12k due to the amount of hand work that goes into them. I didn't independently confirm this with any engine builders myself, but there you have it.
Turn your point around and look at it from the other side. In other words, why IN A HEALTHY CLASS would gems like Jeremy's two cars -- cars capable of being on the Runoffs podium as is -- not be snapped up by eager buyers? Short answer? There is widespread perception that FV is a failing class, that better competitive opportunities for the money lie elsewhere, and that one should not invest bad money after good.Jeremy Grenier has a Womer with a carbon fiber body, all the fast whizzy bits, with a National caliber engine in it listed on this website for $11K, and is accepting offers. He can't move a first class complete package, yet I'm led to believe I can't buy a stand alone engine for that price? Something doesn't add up. I'm all for embellishing the truth to get my point across at times
I respectfully disagree that one should not "spread bad news", as ignoring it will not make it go away. On the contrary I think we SHOULD publically discuss it with the attitude that the class' issues can be successfully addressed. This is what leads to confidence among the crows sitting on the fence that the class has a future. Look at SFR's example above. Enterprises got the word out about supply issues, did their homework and came up with a plan to address it. Same thing for Formula 500. They have a new engine in the works that addresses both supply AND aesthetics issues, and sends the message that they are in the game long term.
In contrast, during my decade on SCCA's boards and committees and in the years since I witnessed several classes collapse. Invariably, vested interests blocked meaningful change that could have saved a struggling class. The first casualty is that they can't attract new competitors, then they can't sell good cars. Finally, people leave for other pastures. It is a sad story, and one I think we can avoid with FV. IMO the simplest way forward is to migrate modern and competitive cars to the FST spec. Like the Aussies we can have two prep levels in FV. It keeps the value of older cars better than cutting them out of the class, and gives a clear path to the future for those who want to run at the pointy end.
Last edited by Stan Clayton; 08.21.13 at 10:57 AM. Reason: correct minor errors
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I have been told some have. However this number is surprising to me also. More realistic for a "new" FV engine is $7500. We would not build one for much less than that. Some people have called wanting us to build a "regional" engine. But not sure what that means? When we build an engine we try to get max performance out of all of them. I guess a "regional" is one where we don't try as hard?
In any case, when we get one of those calls we always suggest that they look for a used "national" engine. They can be had for $3000+. A refresh could be done immediately is desired and they would still be WELL under $7500.
With few exceptions a used package car with full drive train will sell FAR under the total parts of it's package. We have sold $30K running cars (not Vees) with $35K motors in them.
No, it adds up ok, when you are familiar with the racing business.Something doesn't add up. I'm all for embellishing the truth to get my point across at times
I agree, but there are some builders asking that price for a "new" FV.If you want to drive newbies away, just spread rumors like that and we're sure to discourage anyone from ever wanting to enter this class.
If he can REALLY do it for under $7000, I would be shocked. (complete engine)... check on the current cost of a rebuild and fresh back-up engine (no core) and see what he says. If it's $12K, I'll just take my mid-life crisis to another sport.
(case and mods $900, manifold $800+, carb $400+, blueprinted, balanced rotating assm. $1000+, heads $800+, ring pack $200+, Ignition, etc. etc. Assembly, dyno time, oils etc. well over $1000. Maybe shipping and he probably wants to make a profit ?
A refresh on an existing engine would probably run anywhere from $1000 up depending upon parts.
Tiago, not sure why it should boggle your mind. A 16 (or 18/20/22) year old that jumps into a "car with 150hp and wings, incredibly complex and sensitive setup options, a whole bunch of gears and win" has a financial backer with resources and probably some level of experience in something else like karts. The same kid that jumps into a FV is likely there because it is at least affordable even if he cannot go straight to the track and win. In the past at least, many FV guys were looking for an affordable way to race open wheel even if they weren't winners right off the bat. When Stevan says it took a few years, it is likely because there were limited funds and knowledge was substituted for money. The knowledge does take a few years to develop. In my case it was certainly true. I was a 20 year old when I first stepped into a FV with very limited funding. I would never get to the Stevan Davis level, but I did improve. The improvement came from learning skills. I spent no more money at the end than I did in the beginning. Now, maybe that model has left us. Quite possible that we cannot get entry level drivers into an entry level class anymore. There simply may be fewer youngsters who have the desire and commitment required to race at the "entry" level.It boggles my mind that we collectively believe that a 16 year old kid can step into a car with 150hp and wings, incredibly complex and sensitive setup options, a whole bunch of gears and win, but it would take him 7 years to figure out how to drive a Vee.
I am heartened by the Aussie situation, with both 1200 and 1600 FV on the track at the same time and what appears to be a very dynamic series. Is it possible here? I hope so. You simply cannot speed FV up without going to the 1600. The costs are just too high on an engine and suspension already maxed out. Phasing out the 1200 cars to FST cars harms everyone with a significant 1200 investment. If the 1600 cars were a national/majors level class, we would be able to choose and if one car becomes more popular the other may eventually die. So be it. Yes, you could easily speed up the 1600 cars to competitive lap times with FF/F5. They would now be much more expensive. What is the point? If you want a faster more expensive car they already exist.
This is not an argument for the status quo. FV can be improved to reduce costs and make it more attractive to the budget racer. FST is a great car. It just needs the push required to make it a nationwide option. Perhaps, like the Aussie model, we can have both and enough participation to create a separate run group.
There is certainly evidence that is true. While FV has been on a decline it still has a large group. FST has a small group but has been hampered by the regional only status. My suggestion, which is worth less than the pixels you're viewing, is too follow the very successful Aussie model. That, of course, requires an SCCA commitment. It is up to the participants to push that model.
FV does not have a manufacturer behind it (Honda - FF) or an organization (SCCA - SR) - only the drivers. We have numbers behind us but not $s. That is why changes are individual and slow - we can afford to do a little at a time. Wholesale change would kill us. Evolution not revolution.
ChrisZ
another Honda option...
What FV needs is an alternative Honda engine option
stock CRF450R motor...that will get the kids excited! Fuel injected, sequential box, 12.5:1 compression.
The motor and transaxle combined can't weigh more than 70#, so lower minimum weight to 900# and even the typical 250 pound 65 year old FV racer can easily make minimum.
The CRF450R motor makes 51HP @ 8100 rpm....so it won't be a 1200 killer, but at that minimum weight it ought to be close on "acceleration"
I think I'll call HPD and get them working with the CRB/BOD now. Too bad Mazda doesn't make a really small displacement motor.
Jim and Stan, $7,000-$7,500 is a lot of money for our engines, but it's NOT $12,000. And, once you have one, $1500 (my quote) for a refresh is at least a still acceptable amount, in my book. Which is my point.
Concerning knowing the "racing business" - I've been around Formula Vee since birth (46 years) and have lent a hand in building over 17 Vees. I'm pretty familiar with it. My brother and I are probably the only people that have ever been in a Vee in the womb! My mom drove a few test laps back in early 1967 when she was 5 months pregnant with twins in a car my dad had just built....Ah, those were the days!
All your points are valid, and I'm not arguing for or against FV. I just don't believe anyone needs to spend 5 figures on an engine to be competitive, or even WIN the Runoffs. I'm not blind to the escalating prices for hard to obtain parts, but to fudge numbers by $5K is not fair to the uniformed person looking to enter our class. It's fine to discuss all the barriers we face in both (or all) classes recruiting new blood, but I just don't buy that dollar amount (pardon the pun).
Respectfully,
James
Thank you, Jim; no problem with disagreeing. I called my friend just now to confirm the details of our conversation, and one correction is in order: he said he was told to budget ten to twelve thousand...not eleven to twelve.
He also said that those numbers were a direct quote from a conversation he had with a prominent nationally recognized engine builder with many Runoffs victories to his credit just two weeks ago, and are predicated on the customer having no parts to contribute to the build, and wanting new parts and the best of everything. It was part of a conversation about what it costs to be competitive in FV, FF and FC...chassis, engines, everything.
My friend outlined where the extra costs come in over a routine engine build-up, and yes, he told me the name of the engine builder. But no, I'm not going to call out either one of them here.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
What FV needs is an alternative Honda engine option
stock CRF450R motor...that will get the kids excited! Fuel injected, sequential box, 12.5:1 compression.
The motor and transaxle combined can't weigh more than 70#, so lower minimum weight to 900# and even the typical 250 pound 65 year old FV racer can easily make minimum.
The CRF450R motor makes 51HP @ 8100 rpm....so it won't be a 1200 killer, but at that minimum weight it ought to be close on "acceleration"
I think I'll call HPD and get them working with the CRB/BOD now. Too bad Mazda doesn't make a really small displacement motor.
I was thinking a Harley engine. Keep with the air cooled concept. Also, there are plenty of people buying Harleys and I wouldn't consider them in the same catagory as the race bikes. More of an attitude type of thing. Maybe FV can be some sort of rebel driving gang with our old air-cooled rat rides. Wait a minute, we may already be there.
(all those trikes out there could also run!)
Youth
There is good news within the class regarding young drivers. My son (age 21), Chris Elwell, three Maloney's and the Abbott brothers are all in their 20's, so that makes 7
younger drivers in three states (Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan). I don't care if
their father's, uncles or brothers were the reason they joined our class. They're racing
in our class and active drivers who hopefully will bring additional youth into the formula classes.
Mark
Mark, You are certainly correct and that news is great. But the point was that all new (young) drivers are coming from the family that has played with Vee's for years. More exposure is need to get outside that limited group. (Heck, YOU are even one of the "young guys" in FV
Hopefully the above young drivers will do well and bring buddies to the track to get them involved.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...345#post394345
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...220#post398220
There is so much misinformation on this thread that the discussion is getting distorted.
Two great FV engines above, that could be rebuilt and Runoff-ready for under $5K.
I think FV costs can be significant reduced, but some of the inflated numbers presented here are just stupid. Anybody that gets quoted these crazy numbers needs to call Dave Carr for some reality.
Last edited by problemchild; 08.21.13 at 2:38 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
All joking aside I recently had a conversation with a long time FV guy (and poster in this thread), who seriously suggested I ask for a different engine...a non-turbo Subaru boxster with a severe inlet restrictor. My only real issue with that idea (or the 1.5L Honda Fit engine from FF, or the new 1.6L Ford in SRF) is that they add tremendous complexity and cost to the equation compared to the ACVW 1600.
Yes, you could run one for the rest of your life and give it to your grandkids with racing miles still left on it, but there are steps not even I am prepared to take.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Exactly! I know we've moved off topic a bit, but it's absurd to say ANYONE needs to spend twice this amount to run up front at the Runoffs when both of these engines would get you there....and as long as you drove your car to its potential, there would be no reason to say "if I only spent another 5 to 7 grand, I coulda been a contender".
Just to make myself feel better, I'm gonna contact another builder I know. If it's less than $7K, I'll keep it to myself. If it's $9K or over, I'll report here and apologize for doubting...and go find another class.
For this to remain apples-to-apples, be sure to ask for "all new parts (none provided by you) and the best of everything" ... cam, followers, rocker set-up, flow bench optimization of the carb, manifold and heads, new state-of-the-art exhaust, etc. ... EVERYTHING.
Oh, and if the answer makes you take a pass on FV, you will have just proved everything I and others have been saying in this thread.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
People don't buy new FV engines. Reputable builders replace the parts that need replacing with good parts, new if best. New is certainly not better in all cases. New FV engines are for people that don't know better. That's why you deal with an experienced FV builder. He wants to take care of his customer, not run up the bill with unnecessary parts, just to call it "new".
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
There are no new cranks, rods, heads, manifolds, or carbs.
I'm not going to argue any of your points, Greg, but just remind you that the price I presented was for all new parts with none provided by the customer. Deviate from those conditions and of course the equation changes.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Which is why most of us have been saying "new"
Maybe I've been away from FV for a little too long now, but I did this exact same exercise back in 2006 and was told "can't get all NEW parts".
Where can you get ZERO MILE 1200 heads? Cranks? What about rods? Cams that aren't just reground?
--on edit...others posted while I was multitasking. If by "new" we are meaning zero mile since reconditioned then I understand. Just making sure we are comparing "apples to apples" and some engine builder out there doesn't have 50 year old NOS parts in his secret stash because that could explain the price.
All the money is in heads, manifold, carb and exhaust, all the rest of the motor parts are dirt cheap.
Stan, I find it confusing. Do you mean to say all new parts, new as in not ever used. Or by "new" do you mean the parts are new to the customer, even though they are actually used parts? See my post above.
Thanks,
Barry
Since I am reporting what I was told, and didn't ask for clarification I can't answer the question definitively. Sorry!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Stan, OK thanks. I believe by new, your builder means some used parts that have been modified for the first time.
I'm going to guess James 7K number does not include the exhaust system since that would be inline with my information.
Regards,
Barry
Costs
I don't believe much of the costs quoted here. I have TWO "new" very strong engines that both did well at the Runoffs, new trick Roxanne stainless exhaust, very good flowing carbs (do need a better manifold) that along with a trailer, freshly rebuilt car and tons of spares I'm selling for $14,000 TOTAL. They are as "new" of an engine and top of the line with every legally available upgrade. I bought/rebuilt this car and package, including the engines, over the last three years for around $21k. I have had one interested person in 3 weeks. I would expect that if the prices of $12k for a drivetrain alone were even close I would have had a stampede just for the engines.Not to mention all of the mentioned parts that are claimed to be unobtainable that I have duplicates of yet no one is in a hurry to buy.
When I went shopping for new FF engines several years ago, all the builders I talked to, tried to find me good used engines, or wanted to work with what we already have. A new engine would be just a PITA to them. In today's racing world, vrtually no one is buying "new" prepared engines in the junior classes. New engines are for the "crate engine" classes. The cost of labor to "prepare" modern parts for race applications is so high. The cost of new engines in the SCCA junior classes, whether FVs, kents, or pintos, probably quite similiar, is irrelevent to any discussions about the future of FV.
Stan, how many times have you raced your FV?
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
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