Let's fold FST into FV

[Hardingfv32]

I also believe FV has been more effected by the rising cost of gas (for the transporter, not the Vee) and the economic downturn we've been in. FV is the closest thing SCCA has to a (true) middle class (blue collar even?) race class. And guess what, true middle class jobs and salaries are in decline and have been for 30 years. You could say that FV is the canary in the coal mine as far as economic effects on participation.

This is the heart of the participation issue and there is nothing you can do about it. Also, as stated before small participation numbers mean unattractive race groupings and again there is nothing you can do about it. Why bother with major class changes, with unknown benefit, when they have no effect on the above?

Brian

[sracing]

You know what? EVERY post here has some merit. Pro FV, Pro FST, and Con either. The issue to save FV/FST is exposure. As I and many others have said several times: Few heavily involved in racing (and still alive) has ever heard of FV/FST, and NONE of those not involved.

I don't think FV or FST has been a typical "blue collar" $ item for several years.
(Except maybe to do one or 2 races a year at very regional levels. A blue collar worker raising a family and buying his house typically can't afford road racing. I have been lucky enough to have a better income than average without a recession impact, and, I still found it to be a very big part of the budget. AGAIN, exposure to the RIGHT people is what is needed.
One of my younger customers who is still early in his professional career with a (new home and kids), apparently got together with a couple other guys to purchase an FST. So a racing 'team" effort could make it more affordable.

All the exposure FV has been getting is on this forum... I don't think many outsiders are visiting here.

For 20+ years I had been drag racing, involved in circle track and corvette restoration, (and I even owned one of thse crappy VW's) etc. I NEVER heard of FV until I saw a ~30+ year old article in Mech Illustrated? and a guy brought me a FV to fix the front end. Two weeks later, I had 2 FV's and a week after that a friend bought another. A couple weeks later 3 of us were in school at Charlotte. GET SOME EXPOSURE...

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Jim,

That's been my point all along. FV and FST are both viable racing classes each with it's own pros / cons. They both can survive, (although it's hard to argue two classes would be better then one I suppose). It's not just FV that needs exposure, it's road racing / SCCA in general.

I've argued for a long time now that you can't make racing cheap. Not only from a financial standpoint, but from a time standpoint. There just isn't a way to make a competitive sport like auto racing stay cheap and easy. We all want competition, and competition drives costs and time comittments up. No way around it.

The only solution is to reach out and find those with the means and more importantly, the DESIRE to do it. It's amazing what people are willing to sacrifice to go racing if the desire is strong enough.

It's just a difficult and complicated process to get "exposure" SCCA doesn't exctly make it easy to put ourselves in front of lots of people.

Michael

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,

I've got to agree with Jim and Greg on this. While it would be great for race groupings to speed up FV (significantly), it is completely unrealistic and probably quite unsafe. Our engines are already stressed pretty well and need plenty of TLC to stay at their peak. Our brakes are also near the limit as they are; wheels, spindles, front trailing arms as well.

If FV (and FST) is to survive it/they need a safe place to race. Race chairs combining race groups to get events over by noon on Sunday are not helping... Putting Vees' in harms way by running them with SFR's is just plain foolish. But that what's happening and Vee drivers are voting with their lack of interest.

I also believe FV has been more effected by the rising cost of gas (for the transporter, not the Vee) and the economic downturn we've been in. FV is the closest thing SCCA has to a (true) middle class (blue collar even?) race class. And guess what, true middle class jobs and salaries are in decline and have been for 30 years. You could say that FV is the canary in the coal mine as far as economic effects on participation.

For me, FV is ALL about low cost racing. It exists and has thrived almost solely for that reason. The fantastic level of competition we have had over the years is largely a result of the low cost of entry we had.

Bruce

Very nicely written post, Bruce, but for this to be true, we would need to see this same effect in other "low cost" SCCA classes. Yet, we do not. Moreover, the members of several other would take issue with the claim that FV is "the closest thing SCCA has to a (true) middle class (blue collar even?) race class." Skipping over FST in the formula ranks, Formula 500 has long laid claim to being the lowest cost class, and I challenge anyone to refute their claim.

Meanwhile, Spec Racer Ford and Spec Miata are arguably as cost effective as FV from initial purchase to daily maintenance and engine rebuilds. STL is just IT cars under 1.8L displacement, and in two years has gone from concept to the club's third ranking class.

Take a look at the graph below. None of those other classes has suffered the long term decline FV has seen over the past 20 years. Combine that with my earlier post showing that national entries are virtually unchanged from 30 years ago, and the notion that a poor economy is driving away FV drivers disproportionately just doesn't hold up.

Something else is at work. To see what it is take a walk through the paddock. Sure, there are some young folks in FV, but your average FV owner has an AARP card in his/her wallet. Contrast that with the flat bellies, full heads of hair, body piercings and pre-school kids that populate some other strongly subscribed classes and the difference is clear. Those middle/blue collar club members you mentioned are here in the Club, all right. They're just not coming to FV in the numbers they used to.

[Hardingfv32]

... the notion that a poor economy is driving away FV drivers disproportionately just doesn't hold up.

Something else is at work...

1) The poor economy thesis works just fine for existing FV owners. This is particularly true if the competitor is getting less enjoyment from his racing dollar. Some of that is just years of racing and some is just the negatives that low car counts are creating.

2) Few new FV competitors could be do to the current lack of automotive mechanical skills of the population today. SRF and Miata are simply easier to maintain and a better fit for the current population. No way to make a 'junkyard part' car viable today. Few of the FV kids on the West Coast do anything more than change tires on the cars that their fathers provide for them to race.

3) SFR and Miata have a very strong rental and managed maintenance structure. This is lacking in FV almost everywhere but the NE. The NE has reasonable entries. In S Cal, when we lost our main maintenance guy the class immediately began to die.

These are all issues that can not be resolved.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

I think Brian kinda nailed the biggest single problem that I & my family/crew have noticed..... Arrive & Drive Miatas & SRFs. There are a few FV options, but the people with the money go bigger.

No one wants to do the work themselves anymore (a symptom of the US today in itself), and half of 'drivers' turn a race weekend into a Peacock show.

I see dozens upon dozens of them show up at Watkins Glen, mainly pulling richer city folk from NYC & Jersey. The giant prep shop hauler(s) for a single team pull in, setup the paddock & hospitality area, then the drivers show up in their high-end street cars or bus motorhomes.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Looking at the trends, it seems the decline was generalized for the top 3 classes until probably 2010. The recovery for FV doesn't seem as spectacular as what the other top 2 classes have seen.

Back to the original question, would folding FV and FST together have produced a better recovery, i.e. if you add the numbers of FST to the FV curves, how does the curve compare against SRF and SM?

Jean

Very nicely written post, Bruce, but for this to be true, we would need to see this same effect in other "low cost" SCCA classes. Yet, we do not. Moreover, the members of several other would take issue with the claim that FV is "the closest thing SCCA has to a (true) middle class (blue collar even?) race class." Skipping over FST in the formula ranks, Formula 500 has long laid claim to being the lowest cost class, and I challenge anyone to refute their claim.

Meanwhile, Spec Racer Ford and Spec Miata are arguably as cost effective as FV from initial purchase to daily maintenance and engine rebuilds. STL is just IT cars under 1.8L displacement, and in two years has gone from concept to the club's third ranking class.

Take a look at the graph below. None of those other classes has suffered the long term decline FV has seen over the past 20 years. Combine that with my earlier post showing that national entries are virtually unchanged from 30 years ago, and the notion that a poor economy is driving away FV drivers disproportionately just doesn't hold up.

Something else is at work. To see what it is take a walk through the paddock. Sure, there are some young folks in FV, but your average FV owner has an AARP card in his/her wallet. Contrast that with the flat bellies, full heads of hair, body piercings and pre-school kids that populate some other strongly subscribed classes and the difference is clear. Those middle/blue collar club members you mentioned are here in the Club, all right. They're just not coming to FV in the numbers they used to.

[sracing]

Jim,

That's been my point all along. FV and FST are both viable racing classes each with it's own pros / cons. They both can survive, (although it's hard to argue two classes would be better then one I suppose).

Ok, we agree. With one exception. FST has HELPED open wheel entry level racing. It has not affected FV at all yet. No FV drivers have left FV that hadn't already left years ago. FST has attracted new drivers. Look at our current fields. That was the intent of the class.

It's not just FV that needs exposure, it's road racing / SCCA in general.

Yep, but right now, I don't care about the non-ACVW classes.

[Hardingfv32]

It's just a difficult and complicated process to get "exposure" SCCA doesn't exactly make it easy to put ourselves in front of lots of people.

If Indy Car and Grand Am can't sell road racing, then why should SCCA make any effort to sell amateur racing? SCCA should limit their activities to race administration and drop all the other BS activities.

The US general population simply has no interest in road racing and that becomes more obvious as time go by. Without some form of road racing popularity there are not going be any new comers with the 'desire' to overcome the financial and time issues that SCCA racing creates.

Brian

[Purple Frog]

Have any of you called a reputable engine builder and asked the cost of a new national FV engine if you don't have a core? or even if you have a core?

I have. OMG

It's not for blue collar working stiffs.

[sracing]

new national FV engine

Oxymoron.

[jim murphy]

I am one of the F600 guys (since 2009) and the market you guys need to be working on is the next generation and you need to do it NOW or forever be lost. Whenever some youngster has an interest in our F600's we always ask why not FV's - and here is what you guys need to be focusing on - the answers have been consistently the same: "Old technology, slowest formula class (a safety issue) and skinny tires".
When I first heard the last answer - skinny tires - I just about fell over but the next gen guys just don't like them as they don't look "racey" in one youngster's view.

The take-away for you FV guys is to evolve into FST ASAP with a taller gear to get the speed up for safety in reducing closing speeds from other classes in your race group.
Make two changes per year to get there. IF ya'll don't do this your participation will continue its long downhill slide. The SEDIV has almost gotten there as we don't see many FV's like we used to.

In the meantime, we will just keep taking inquiries into F600 (www.formula600racing.com) especially now that we have a money race series where your race purse will help pay for our car rental. Check out our race series which is already planning our 2014 season - www.theformula600challenge.com

Appeal to your customer or lose the sale.

Jim
Been messing with F5/F6's since 1982.

[Matt Clark]

with a taller gear to get the speed up for safety in reducing closing speeds from other classes in your race group.

Keep in mind, that if we could, we would.... We already have the Long Box option in FV, but we don't have the power to pull that everywhere. If it would be faster, we'd all be doing it now. It's back to not enough HP.

[problemchild]

I am one of the F600 guys (since 2009) and the market you guys need to be working on is the next generation and you need to do it NOW or forever be lost. Whenever some youngster has an interest in our F600's we always ask why not FV's - and here is what you guys need to be focusing on - the answers have been consistently the same: "Old technology, slowest formula class (a safety issue) and skinny tires".
When I first heard the last answer - skinny tires - I just about fell over but the next gen guys just don't like them as they don't look "racey" in one youngster's view.

The take-away for you FV guys is to evolve into FST ASAP with a taller gear to get the speed up for safety in reducing closing speeds from other classes in your race group.
Make two changes per year to get there. IF ya'll don't do this your participation will continue its long downhill slide. The SEDIV has almost gotten there as we don't see many FV's like we used to.

In the meantime, we will just keep taking inquiries into F600 (www.formula600racing.com) especially now that we have a money race series where your race purse will help pay for our car rental. Check out our race series which is already planning our 2014 season - www.theformula600challenge.com

Appeal to your customer or lose the sale.

Jim
Been messing with F5/F6's since 1982.

FVs had those same issues in 1970. The selling feature was LOW COST and high competition levels. We lost our way and many refuse to except that. Virtually no blue collars now, although many of the current FV crowd were blue collar in 1970, and like to think of themselves as such now, as they sip Martinis in their motorhomes

[sracing]

Keep in mind, that if we could, we would.... We already have the Long Box option in FV, but we don't have the power to pull that everywhere. If it would be faster, we'd all be doing it now. It's back to not enough HP.

Top speed is not the issue. Field numbers are. If there were decent fields, FV and FST together would have their own groups. If we raised speeds to compete with FF, etc. the cars are more unsafe, more unreliable and more expensive.

[Matt Clark]

Right. And that goes back to my post #86. The Spec Rent-A-Ride classes are killing us.

And I do not think I would want an impact in a FV at any speed, much less if we're faster.

[rave motorsports]

Since we at Nuveau Autosport are in the process of trying to turn our passion for open wheel racing into a profitable business I tend to look at things from a market analysis perspective. I chose FST for lots of reasons that don't really matter in this forum. Some may view this as a FV against the others issue. In my opinion and one that I'm gambling with a lot of money on being correct. This issue is about developing a class that is marketable to grow enough to at the very least out pace attrition and hopefully grow. We are all after the same demographic. The person that has a love and desire to enjoy Motorsports. It isn't a competition between other SCCA classes. It's a competition against, Motocross, dirt track racing, NASA and every type of Motorsports. To survive we have to have a marketable and appealing product that's fits within the budget of the perspective customer. It really is as simple as "When you give enough people what they want, you get what you want " now lets just decide what people want!

[Steve Davis]

To Jim Schings ...
The posts above indicate a belief that failure to have 'arrive and drive' options are one of the major reasons for FV failure .. and possibly FST (although YOU would not call it "failure" ). Since you have had multiple FST's .. and occasionally an FV for 'arrive and drive' rentals .. what is YOUR opinion on that as a "problem" for the class ?? (Jeremy - feel free to step in here too.. I know that 'Ski' has had similar options for several years).

Reason... I have CONSIDERED getting involved in an effort for 'arrive and drive', but just could not justify the (phenomenal) effort and expense considering my view of the potential "rewards".

Your thoughts ??

Steve, FV80

[problemchild]

Reason... I have CONSIDERED getting involved in an effort for 'arrive and drive', but just could not justify the (phenomenal) effort and expense considering my view of the potential "rewards".

The operational expenses of operating a team capable of providing arrive-n-drive service is not alot different between running FVs and ? ( FF, FC, SRF, DSR, GT1 for examples). The amount that can be charged is not proportional to the costs. People that rent out FVs are not earning a living from renting out FVs.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

To Jim Schings ...
The posts above indicate a belief that failure to have 'arrive and drive' options are one of the major reasons for FV failure .. and possibly FST (although YOU would not call it "failure" ). Since you have had multiple FST's .. and occasionally an FV for 'arrive and drive' rentals .. what is YOUR opinion on that as a "problem" for the class ?? (Jeremy - feel free to step in here too.. I know that 'Ski' has had similar options for several years).

Reason... I have CONSIDERED getting involved in an effort for 'arrive and drive', but just could not justify the (phenomenal) effort and expense considering my view of the potential "rewards".

Your thoughts ??

Steve, FV80

I've been very curious about this as well. I always figured, like Greg said, it's just not possible to rent out a FV for the price required to make it worth while. People would rather spend the money on a FF rental.

I have a car very similar to my current car that I have been considering renting, offering a very competitive car as an arrive and drive. Anyone intersted? Hmmm...I wonder what would happen if I converted that to a FST.

[jim murphy]

Keep in mind, that if we could, we would.... We already have the Long Box option in FV, but we don't have the power to pull that everywhere. If it would be faster, we'd all be doing it now. It's back to not enough HP.

Referring to the higher HP FST's not the FV's here.

Jim

[jim murphy]

Top speed is not the issue. Field numbers are. If there were decent fields, FV and FST together would have their own groups. If we raised speeds to compete with FF, etc. the cars are more unsafe, more unreliable and more expensive.

I did NOT say run with the FF's just get faster lap times and closer top speeds - the goal here is to reduce the high closing speeds between the FV's and all the rest of the classes in the same race group. The sticky FF tires will help lap times and a higher final drive will help get closer to the FF's & F6's (proposed new name for the F5's). With the bigger/wider tires/wheels the objection of "ugly skinny tires" has been overcome.
Rack/pinion steering, disk brakes, and newer 1600/1800 motors will help overcome the "old technology" objection. Overcoming the customer's objection is key to selling.

Jim

[jim murphy]

Top speed is not the issue. Field numbers are. If there were decent fields, FV and FST together would have their own groups. If we raised speeds to compete with FF, etc. the cars are more unsafe, more unreliable and more expensive.

But FST's have been running higher speeds for over 10 years and no safety issues
in crashes has arisen to demand a re-design.

Overcome the objections given by your customer to win the sale. We asked for over 3 years and heard the objections above from potential customers. What other objections have you heard?

Jim

[Steve Davis]

Jim (M) = FST has no higher (measurably) top speed than FV. They just have a MUCH better 'pull' out of the turns. Of course, FST has more "room to grow" in that area than FV does.

Steve, FV80

[sracing]

But FST's have been running higher speeds for over 10 years and no safety issues in crashes has arisen to demand a re-design.

Yep. Because our top speeds are only 2 or 3 mph faster than a Vee. Our gain is in the low end. Just as we planned it.

[Tiago Santos]

I've argued for a long time now that you can't make racing cheap. Not only from a financial standpoint, but from a time standpoint. There just isn't a way to make a competitive sport like auto racing stay cheap and easy. We all want competition, and competition drives costs and time comittments up. No way around it.

The only solution is to reach out and find those with the means and more importantly, the DESIRE to do it. It's amazing what people are willing to sacrifice to go racing if the desire is strong enough.

I strongly disagree with the above. FV has survived for 50 years on the promise of cheap, close racing. Obviously we're not gonna get minimum wage folks racing with us anytime soon, but why would anyone with a significant amount of money start racing FV when, for little if any more money, they could race a FF or FC? It's laughable that a "new" FV motor can cost 12 grand. It's laughable that our motors can barely go a full season before they need fairly expensive rebuilds.

I'm all for doing passionate stuff, but good luck with the approach of pitching FV as a true test of manliness and dedication. How many new, serious FV programmes have you seen lately? How many drivers have arrived at the class with no previous FV affiliation (no sons of old FV drivers, no guys who had raced 30 years ago who finally retired with a bunch of time and money) and REALLY went for it, and got to the front at the runoffs or at Majors?

Maybe my field of vision is limited, but other than Terran on the West Coast, I can't think of anyone else. Actually scratch that - his dad was already an FV guy.

Anyone with that much time or money is racing the F1600 and F2000 pro series. Is that the crowd we'd like to cater to? Good. Freaking. Luck.

Another theme I see from time to time is subtly implying that kids these days are lazy and don't have the focus, drive or passion required to be a good racer. Yes, cause we kids have it so easy now However different the average 20-40 year old's life might appear to what you remember, I guarantee it's not any easier. Humans being humans, will put however much energy into things as is required, and "making it" in the 21st century isn't any easier than it used to be. We might spend more time sitting down, but I'd hardly call that a benefit. The days of walking to work with no shoes on, in the snow, uphill both ways and all that crap might be over, but we have our own new problems to work on.

Here's a recap of my take on things - feel free to disregard it based on the naivety of my youth, my lack of experience or my political orientation:

- FV was the cheapest and most popular way to race an open wheel car. The parts were cheap and plentiful, the maintenance was easily done with cheap and freely available tools, the setups were uncomplicated (no corner balancing, alignments to the nearest inch)

- All of that has mostly changed. The costs are steadily rising, and the class has become increasingly technical. Fancy shocks, sticky tires, wind tunnel aero, etc.

- While some of the technology has advanced steadily, the other half has stayed firmly in the 60's. For younger people, things that are black magic, weird or ugly include drum brakes, carbs, suspension setups that don't resemble anything they are likely to ever see anywhere else..

- If you imagine a venn diagram with one side representing people who like playing with shock dyno plots, reading and analysing data, worrying about drag coefficients and the consistency rating of wheel bearing grease; the other side representing people who enjoy going to VW graveyards and buying rusty parts from the samba; the intersection of both will be pretty darn small. If you add another circle for people under 50yo with an annual income >100k, an incredible passion for racing and lots of spare time, you come up with... Hmm.. Yeah.

- FV does not have to be expensive and there have been clear suggestions of how to make it cheaper along the years. Spec manifolds, spec/street tires, increased minimum weight (mostly to discourage spending $$ on lighter stuff and keeping older, heavier cars closer to target). Some of these work very well in other parts of the world, but have been discarded over here.

- The majority of the current FV population is old and has been racing for a long time. The probability that they'll want to give up all the crap they have accumulated (both the physical parts and the years of knowledge) is low.

- Like someone else said, FV has always been racing for the middle class. OK, upper middle class. But the section of the population that was mostly affected by the "recent" financial problems, probably intersects greatly with the kind of people that either raced, or would be interested in racing a vee. Those who couldn't afford it before won't be able to afford it anyway, those who could afford to race a faster car probably weren't affected much.

- Folding FST into FV would be great, but unlikely. It would require some common ground and compromising the status quo of both classes. We couldn't agree on running a spec manifold!!! Incredible, but true. FST has a decent set of rules and a great package according to those who have made the jump. Converting FV to FST completely will cause chaos and we will lose a lot of folks. The FST guys have very little motivation to roll back the changes they've made to their cars. Most of them run together anyway in their little piece of paradise, so other than the couple of lone wolves around the country that would finally have someone to run with, I can't see it happening.


In conclusion - it's a difficult problem to solve, when the problem both isn't clearly defined and appears different to everyone involved. I'm not proposing any new solutions, just felt like going on a rant.

[racerdad2]

Not having enuf sense to withhold commenting, here's my $.0002 worth. When FV started, VW's were common place. My first car, 1960 bug with 36 hp & a floor board reserve lever. No fuel gauge. Gas fired heater that literally exploded & filled the car with black smoke every time I turned it on. For added Mn. winter comfort, I drove with a Coleman lantern on the floor for auxiliary heat. I had a '64 split window van. Both fun cars. Air cooled VW's were everywhere. Open wheel racing enthusiasts had an inexpensive entry level car. Very Popular. That began to change in the late 70's. Now, air cooled VW's are rarely seen. Not many young guns are interested in grandpa's racer. Out of respect for FV & FST, give them their own run group. That's where they belong. No time for another 60 minutes in the day for these guys ? Really ? How about a little respect for your elders

[Hardingfv32]

I would say that SRF and Miata are much simpler cars to maintain, making then more profitable to manage. Generous cockpit space does not effect car performance. There is a possibility that accident costs are generally lower. Finally these classes are structured to actually emphasize the driver. FV makes that claim but does not actually have the rules to achieve that goal. The package is just more appealing for the the casual or first time driver.

Brian

[jhenn4716]

it's a difficult problem to solve, when the problem both isn't clearly defined and appears different to everyone involved. I'm not proposing any new solutions, just felt like going on a rant.

Everything I've been thinking and said far better than I could say it. But I have to totally agree, it's not what it was in the past. It's an old class that's only gotten older. Rebadging it with newer parts and calling it FST will only slow down the inevitable conclusion.

[Tiago Santos]

To Jim Schings ...
The posts above indicate a belief that failure to have 'arrive and drive' options are one of the major reasons for FV failure .. and possibly FST (although YOU would not call it "failure" ). Since you have had multiple FST's .. and occasionally an FV for 'arrive and drive' rentals .. what is YOUR opinion on that as a "problem" for the class ?? (Jeremy - feel free to step in here too.. I know that 'Ski' has had similar options for several years).

Reason... I have CONSIDERED getting involved in an effort for 'arrive and drive', but just could not justify the (phenomenal) effort and expense considering my view of the potential "rewards".

Your thoughts ??

Steve, FV80

Steve, I (and many of our healthy local group) wouldn't be driving a vee if it hadn't been for the awesome arrive and drive option we have here. The Family Affair Racing Team started by renting out one or a couple of cars a few years ago, to a LOT of vees right now. I have lost count of how many cars they have, 6, 7, 8.. More? I dunno.

Anyway.. I'm still don't know if they make any money with the rentals or if it's 100% a labour of love. It has definitely saved FV up here, bumping up the number of cars from 2 or 3 per race to 10-12 (and 20+ at our annual "invitational") A decent percentage of the renters end up buying a vee after a few rentals. That said, it helps that it's much cheaper to race up here than it would be at a National. I'd say our local series probably feels like what a Regional would be in SCCA. There are some faster cars kicking around that would be nationally competitive in the right hands, but so far most people have kept it pretty reasonable.

There are a lot of cheap alternatives for having fun. Even with driving, it's so much easier to buy a fun daily driver and take it to the track every now and then. For the $1500-2500 it costs to competitively run and attempt to win an SCCA Major weekend, there are a LOT of crazy activities you could get into. You could go mountain climbing on a new state or even country 6 times a year. For the price of a full season, you could take a month or two off and go travel through Asia. Or spend a weekend in Hawaii every month. Or buy a house in Detroit every month lol. Arrive and Drives turn FV into a fun, quirky thing to do "once". Then some of them get hooked But convincing the average guy to make the initial investment required "sight unseen" is a tall order.

[SwanTechEnt]

Few new FV competitors could be do to the current lack of automotive mechanical skills of the population today. SRF and Miata are simply easier to maintain and a better fit for the current population. No way to make a 'junkyard part' car viable today. Few of the FV kids on the West Coast do anything more than change tires on the cars that their fathers provide for them to race.

Brian

There are a couple of us "west coast kids" that do more than just changes tires. My Caldwell didn't rebuild itself from the chassis up But for the most part the lack of mechanical skill and desire to put the time and effort into it are not there, as opposed to a miata which on paper you rarely would need to touch besides putting in gas to race

my $.02

[Amon]

Brian,

The Miata might be easier to maintain but the cost to repair the weekly bodywork
damage can be expensive, unless you have no pride in your car and don't repair it.
In regards to SRF, I find them ugly and have no desire to drive them in their current
form. As they say, "Beauty may be skin deep, buy ugly's to the bone"!!

Ciao'

Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

There are a couple of us "west coast kids" that do more than just changes tires. My Caldwell didn't rebuild itself from the chassis up But for the most part the lack of mechanical skill and desire to put the time and effort into it are not there, as opposed to a miata which on paper you rarely would need to touch besides putting in gas to race

my $.02

Terran, kudos for being one of the youngins' willing and able to turn a wrench.

Having converted and campaigned more than one production based car in my life...you've got to find the SM kids that are doing more than writing a check and tell them how much easier wrenching on a FV is. From karts to FF, ITA to Grp2 Rally car, CDCRA car to Late Model Sportsman NOTHING has been as simple to maintain and work on than a FV. The kart is the only thing that even comes close--of course I could have chosen a class and era when things weren't so maintenance intense.

You've got to let those production car racer friends know FV/FST isn't as expensive, as hard to work on, nor as dangerous as they think!

[racerdad2]

Keep in mind a $10k Miata is a field filler & a ton of fun to race. Top Miatas go for $50k. They do run a spec tire at a spec price. As far as body work goes, there are guys that come to a race, not a car show. Pretty is nice, but nearly everyone looks good going by at 100 mph

[Germg]

What does it cost for an arrive and drive in your Area? How many rentals do those teams get a year?

Jeremy

[Tiago Santos]

Brian,

The Miata might be easier to maintain but the cost to repair the weekly bodywork
damage can be expensive, unless you have no pride in your car and don't repair it.
In regards to SRF, I find them ugly and have no desire to drive them in their current
form. As they say, "Beauty may be skin deep, buy ugly's to the bone"!!

Ciao'

Mark

If only everyone thought the same way

I don't think the miata being easy to maintain has much to do with anything. It's just a common car that people can relate to. You can even drive one to the track and back if you really want to, and a few of the local SM guys do just that. They are modern cars, with easily available (new!) parts, easy to tune, etc. Anyone with a passing interest in cars knows about them, can look under the hood and understand what everything is and how to diagnose most problems.

In my opinion, the reason the miata is as popular as it is, is Mazda. Nevermind that it really is a fantastic little car, a true sports car for the masses, if any other company had come up with it, it wouldn't have meant thing without the support and involvement that Mazda has put in. If we could ever get VW interested in FV to 1/10th of the level that Mazda did with SM, we'd be saved haha. But is there any value in FV for VW anymore? What would we be helping them with? Maybe if we call it a charitable donation..

[Tiago Santos]

What does it cost for an arrive and drive in your Area? How many rentals do those teams get a year?

Jeremy

Jeremy - http://unionracing.ca/

Looks like $1200 for a normal double weekend, includes gas, tires and all consumables. I don't want to answer for them too much, but I don't think I'd be too off the mark saying they probably rent 2-4 cars a weekend. Some of those are usually novices (which can only race on Saturday, hence a cheaper rental rate of $750). 6 weekends a year, I believe!

[Germg]

$1200 for a double. I will have to say that is less than what I can do it for. I still need to make a living, but still more than a SM or SRF in our Area. I charge the same for FV, FF,FC, or GT-1 prep. I do make my living prepping cars. The Dc area is run by the Miata community. They have so many that they have 2 separate run group's. SM and SSM. They found a way to push all the open wheel cars into 1 group. We had 20 FV's per event for a couple of years and dropped to 15 then 10. Now we have 1. I have never seen a fst at Summit. The region is run by tin tops/SM and majority rules in the club. SRF only have 6 to 8 now. If you want new younger people to join your group you need to have something they want. The 18 to 20 inch wheels in nasa and the drift culture are something the Secret Car Club of America can not compete with. Nobody in our area knows what we do. For either class to grow there needs to be marketing to expose anyone not in SCCA to them.

[sracing]

To Jim Schings ...
Since you have had multiple FST's .. and occasionally an FV for 'arrive and drive' rentals .. what is YOUR opinion on that as a "problem" for the class ?? Your thoughts ??

Steve, FV80

Steve, It is a labor of love. You won't get rich with an arrive and drive program.

You need to have at least 2 cars rented out for the weekend to just get over break even. I have had 2 and sometimes 3. If you have 2 or more you usually need help. I had employees that worked the weekend and got time off during the week to compensate. (and of course I paid all their expenses) The above all works best if you have a full season renter(s).

I have also sacrificed some $ to get people to try racing. Since we are a full service shop with vendor relationships, I make some money on tires, safety equipment and car maintenance just gets rolled into the shop overhead. We build our own engines etc. We usually sell a few hundred in parts or sometimes services (FV/FST) at an event. I don't see how anyone could make money with under a $1600 x 2 rental unless they had those advantages.

If you live right near a track(s) like the work and relationships, it's for fun only.....

I really don't think the lack of or availability of A&D programs hurt or help the class to any real degree. One of my current full drivers just doesn't want to have to store and maintain a car. The other is from New Mexico and flies in for the races. I have another renter from out west who will also be flying in for a race. The last 2 just wanted to run the FFDA series races.

Interestingly enough. I have had a couple events where I thought I might only have one driver. I offered special deals to potential renters that COULDN"T be beat. No one took me up on them. One was advertised here.

[FVRacer21]

....The region is run by tin tops/SM and majority rules in the club....... For either class to grow there needs to be marketing to expose anyone not in SCCA to them.

The same thing happened in EMRA which used to run 12 - 20 FVs. In the NE if you want to run with Formula Cars there is the FRCCA. Canada has the 1200 group - one thing that has not been discussed is talking our toys and playing in another sandbox. Just what Rand's group did.

Now FV is strong in NE because the people involved ARE the SCCA in the region.

And what about the VSCDA - they had 35 cars for Gingerman in May and 32 cars for Blackhawk - and if we have problems finding parts - what about them! They have their own group. They don't seem to care about sticky tires or trick aerodynamics. Is that where we went wrong?

If we took all of the groups and put them together, FV is still probably the 2nd biggest class after Miata (I think there are only about 700 SRF in existence, if there are that many. The CSRs have a reason to put people in cars just the same way planes need to fill seats.)

Right now, as expensive as it is, you can buy a FV and go racing for under $10,000 a year, that is car, trailer and safety gear - less than the depreciation on a new FF. Will you win? - maybe, with the deals out there right now.

When you sit right down and compare the cost or racing something else - FV has the most performance, competition, camaraderie, and ease of maintenance of any class. You can tow with a street car and put your car in the back of the garage and still have room to park your street car - can't do that with Miata or SRF!

BTW - I really like what the F600 people are doing - if they had done it 10 years ago FV might be dead. But with FF, FF2000, FB F500, F600, FE, FA, there are too many classes competing in the same area - FV is different and we need to highlight that - not play it down. We are different and have more fun!

ChrisZ