Merge of F600 and F500

[Jnovak]

In the September Fastrac the CRB is recommending that F600 and F500 be merged for National competition January 1, 2014.

Here is a link to the proposed rule posted in the preliminary minutes.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...%20Minutes.pdf

It is time for the SCCA to have a very quick very low cost entry level open wheel class.

Please make sure that you send your letters of support into the club here:

www.crbscca.com

[Daryl DeArman]

[dc]

I'm sure there is a group of rogue F500 guys ready to go scorched Earth, eh?

[Gokart Mozart]

I wouldn't say rogue Doug...

Lets put the cart before the horse and while we're at it, strap some rockets to it.

Wait, did you want my two cents?

[Mike Devins]

It is "PROPOSED". So write the CRB with your comment fore and against.

[Chris Elwell]

I sent in my letter in support of the merger. I'm on the F600 side.

[lapsturbo7]

Jay & Doug,
Rouge F500 competitor here.
I support the merger.
It seems from the race report at Watkins Glen between Keith and Clint that there is parity between currently racing F600's and F500. I have objected in the past to F600 spec cars as I was afraid the rules did not establish proven parity. I still would like to race some F600's myself (Road Atlanta) but I did get beat (just) by Keith in early July and we had equal cars.
I believe the class has the most bang for the buck and there are different ideas on how to evolve but the more competitors the better.
Now for my Rogue comment - F500/F600 could easily be combined with Formula F if SCCA really is commited to reducing the number of class'.

David Lapham
QRE prepared:
04 Invader
96 Invader
95 KBS Invader

[dc]

I believe the class has the most bang for the buck and there are different ideas on how to evolve but the more competitors the better.

There's the right thinking...

[Jnovak]

Remember that it is not a done deal yet. The BoD must vote on this so your letters to the CRB are still very important. It is up to the membership to make this happen so make sure that you voice your support for the merge of F600 with F500. I am totally convinced that the class will get better with the merge. More racers in the class is our goal. The potential for growth is huge with a car that is capable of turning FF times for about 1/3rd the cost.

Send in your letters ASAP. It will take 5 minutes. Just let them know that you support the merge of F600 with F500.

Do it here: www.crbscca.com

[Daryl DeArman]

#12112 sent.

[aims20]

#12114 Submitted. Hopefully this can convince some of my Formula SAE buddies to get into club racing since the cars/equipment are similar to what they've already worked on.

[Jnovak]

Jay & Doug,
Rouge F500 competitor here.
I support the merger.
It seems from the race report at Watkins Glen between Keith and Clint that there is parity between currently racing F600's and F500. I have objected in the past to F600 spec cars as I was afraid the rules did not establish proven parity. I still would like to race some F600's myself (Road Atlanta) but I did get beat (just) by Keith in early July and we had equal cars.
I believe the class has the most bang for the buck and there are different ideas on how to evolve but the more competitors the better.
Now for my Rogue comment - F500/F600 could easily be combined with Formula F if SCCA really is commited to reducing the number of class'.

David Lapham
QRE prepared:
04 Invader
96 Invader
95 KBS Invader

Thanks very much for your post David. I especially appreciate the post coming from a long time dedicated F500 competitor. I agree with you that there are not any rogue competitors in F500 or F600. All of us want the class to grow and get better and as you said there are simply different thoughts on how to achieve this. I truly think that the MC engines will bring many more competitors to the class. I plan on being back myself next season and I hope I get the chance to race with you again and with your daughter Katie too. I just hope I can keep up.

[Mike Devins]

letter 12116 sent in favor of the merger

[GBugg]

Letter sent supporting the merger.

[Brian.Novak]

#12114 Submitted. Hopefully this can convince some of my Formula SAE buddies to get into club racing since the cars/equipment are similar to what they've already worked on.

A very excellent point regarding 600 motors. There is a HUGE contingent out there that did nothing but work on 600 drivetrains for their entire college career. Significantly reduces the entry barrier for a lot of people.

[Wahawk]

Strongly in favor of merger #12128

Thanks,
Dave
1661_0

[farrout]

Stongly in favor #12136

[Gokart Mozart]

I respectfully, strongly oppose: Letter #12135.

That whole 'proving itself as a regional class first' bit has yet to determined. I'm sorry, but we all know the ceiling of speeds for F5. F6 is unproven, mildly tested and without standard data.

Having a tunable ECU for mapping is not going to promote any sort of level playing field. In karting, he (or she) who could spend the most money programming a 125cc moto ignition walked away with the gold.

We can all reason what is most cost effective, but in its short time as a class has not showed me a good reason to go national. FST perhaps, but not F6.

I've raced FF, F5, ITA, SM and STU in my nine years as an SCCA member, and F5 is by far the easiest to work on, the most fun behind the wheel, and the most cost effective.

If this is to be passed, it is going to be FF Ford vs. Honda all over again. If it goes through, the F6 will start out restricted, then people will complain, then it is going to win and finally it will be unbeatable. At least Honda gave the FF racers numbers as to what the Honda Fit was capable of. We don't know the outright ceiling of the F6 engine packages...period.

If passed I don't see it benefiting the class at all. I realize I'm not the popular vote, but I'll stand by my convictions on this one. There are too many people with money invested in engines, chassis and all the other go-bits to have a rule passed to allow a mere handful of cars to take over.

Respectfully Yours,

Jacques N. Dresang

[Mike Devins]

If this is to be passed, it is going to be FF Ford vs. Honda all over again.

Last weekend at Mid Ohio F1600 Pro Race

Pos No. Name Laps Best Tm Make/Model Diff
1 10 Jake Eidson 11 1:27.630 Spectrum Honda -
2 0 David Grant 11 1:27.949 Van Diemen Ford +0.319


Not like the Honda killed the the Kent motor. I will admit the most of the remainder of the grid was Honda powered but part of the motivation for that is cost of maintenance. It seems to me that the 2-strokes will still have the cost issue in their favor. The 600 will hopefully bring some drivers to the track that are coming out of shifter karts that are looking for the next step or guys like me who had a DSR, love the shifting and the sound and just can not afford the cost of DSR!

Let's hope that the CRB keeps a good handle on the performance of each of these packages and we have close racing.

[JerryH]

Gotta say this is the coolest thing to happen in a long time! A truely cost effective open wheel car with the feel and sound that will excite everyone.....in or out of the car.

Jerry

[Jnovak]

Gotta say this is the coolest thing to happen in a long time! A truely cost effective open wheel car with the feel and sound that will excite everyone.....in or out of the car.

Jerry

Send a letter Jerry.

[formulasuper]

Sent mine. Do it here: www.crbscca.com

[Brands]

I'm on the fence with this one. Not because I'm a two stroke fan (I'm not) but I'm struggling to get excited about the class. It doesn't really matter I guess as I'm not an SCCA member!

[Stan Clayton]

I'm on the fence with this one. Not because I'm a two stroke fan (I'm not) but I'm struggling to get excited about the class. It doesn't really matter I guess as I'm not an SCCA member!

I'm with you, Brands. I never liked the 2-strokes' sound, smell or look.

DISCLAIMER: Dauntless have a sponsorship deal with the Novak Formula 1000.

That said, a couple of years ago Jay let me drive his F-600 prototype. Wow...what a rocket sled! I had no idea the Club was considering merging the two classes, but this is great news for the long term health of the class(es).

Now, with FV considering disc brakes and there being no source of 1200cc engine parts, maybe we can merge FST and FV. Yeah, dream on, Stan...

[Jnovak]

You can do it Stan, send a letter.

[Daryl DeArman]

2-strokes are cool. Simple to work on. Parts are cheap. They are light. With the right tune-up and oil they smell great! They would sound awesome with proper expansion chambers and if you threw the CVT in the trash can so their rpms would change.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom for the 2 strokes. They are going to have a significant weight advantage. We can't look at peak HP numbers when the F5 package is going to be operating at it's peak HP +/- a few hp 99% of the time and the F6 not so much. Nevermind the time delta for all those shifts and no allowance for a geartronix

[wileymcmahan]

I respectfully, strongly oppose: Letter #12135.

That whole 'proving itself as a regional class first' bit has yet to determined. I'm sorry, but we all know the ceiling of speeds for F5. F6 is unproven, mildly tested and without standard data.

If this is to be passed, it is going to be FF Ford vs. Honda all over again. If it goes through, the F6 will start out restricted, then people will complain, then it is going to win and finally it will be unbeatable. At least Honda gave the FF racers numbers as to what the Honda Fit was capable of. We don't know the outright ceiling of the F6 engine packages...period.


Respectfully Yours,

Jacques N. Dresang

The CRB has all of the data that you say hasnt been provided or that its simply "unknown".Theyre the one who make the final say on data and they have had it for a while. If you wish to know it then ask the CRB for it or better yet ask some of the guys that have ran against a F6 what the actual on track comparisons are like rather than what a piece of paper states the cars may or may not do. If you want to see the cars and their "ceiling",I suggest you show up to a race and run against a F6 as some have already done. I can personally tell you that the F5 is faster as of right now. If you take the weight down to the same as a F5 then the F6 might have a slight advantage, but untill then the F5 will still remain on top. Ive personally raced against some of the top drivers in the country in a F500 this year. It goes without saying that it was a tough battle everytime. Youre saying that the "ceiling" isnt "known" for a F6 right now. I would say different. If you would like to argue "ceilings" then answer me one question..........."If the ceiling is so well known and close to a set standard for F5 right now, then why is it that CJ Mcabee reset his own track record by over 2.6 seconds when its his home track?" Was it because he woke up one morning and figured out how to press the gas peddle all the way down? Or was it because he had a better setup that day? I wont even bother pointing out what the new track record is at Road America recently reset by the national champion in F5 .Point is, theres no ceiling when it comes to racing. People develope themselves and their cars every event to stay in the front of the grid. If this wasnt so, we would still be struggling with a FV instead of being under the track record of a FF at one of the fastest road race tracks in the U.S. better known as Road America.

[Jnovak]

Clint..... Send in a letter to the CRB. The most important thing you can do.

The same for all the rest of you that have any interest in low cost and fast open wheel racing.

www.crbscca.com

[KevinFirlein]

I am not sending a letter because I haven't been in the class in a long time so it wouldn't be proper. I will say when I ran F440 (93-94 in the modified Zinc Z-19 that's been for sale on this site for a while) it was by far the fastest I could go for the money I got in salvage for my F1600 that I wrote off. I never intended to hang around as I had already run F3 in England and South America but the AMW engine is what ran me out. I got sponsorship and went FA racing. I think F500 is a great class and if F600 can get implemented w/o the acrimony the AMW mess caused then why not ? As for the CVT trans system I would gladly install one in our F2000's if it was legal. Its a far better power delivery system then a standard gearbox and really not that hard to sort out. Yes it adds an extra step but that's part of tuning a race car in my opinion.

[Stan Clayton]

You can do it Stan, send a letter.

Two letters sent...one supporting the F5/6 merger and a second proposing folding FST into FV.

Flame on!

[Daryl DeArman]

I am not sending a letter because I haven't been in the class in a long time so it wouldn't be proper.

<snip>

Its a far better power delivery system then a standard gearbox and really not that hard to sort out. Yes it adds an extra step but that's part of tuning a race car in my opinion.

First line of my letter indicated my lack of participation in either class. I would hope they'd weigh it accordingly.

As far as the CVT being a better power delivery system...I won't argue that point. I just think that's what makes them sound so unappealing to even the most ardent 2 stroke lover. Don't shifter karts sound so much better than a Senior Sportsman? Chuck the CVT and put a proper expansion chamber on those things

[racerdad2]

After all, racing isn't about going fast, its about sounding good just kidding I watched the F500 guys have a blast running at COTA :thumbup:

[Daryl DeArman]

After all, racing isn't about going fast, its about sounding good just kidding

Ha

On paper F5 is cheaper point of entry as well as maintenance and very similar in performance to FF yet the participation numbers are very different. Why? Some can't stand the smell, some can't stand the sound, some want to shift, others want 'real' suspension. At least 75% of those "deal breakers" are non-issues with the F600. Besides what pulls us towards one car or the other isn't always logical.

[ReynardF1000]

As a person who briefly raced in F1000, the F600 is a very appealing sounding race car, at far less cost.
I wish this group great success if/when the merger goes through.
May even succumb to the urge to join...

[aerobach]

Letter #12166 sent: pro-merger

Now, I have to slim down (slash may be more accurate) to actually fit into an F6!!!

- John

[wayno]

Letter #12167 sent. Pro merger.

[jim murphy]

Letter #12166 sent: pro-merger

Now, I have to slim down (slash may be more accurate) to actually fit into an F6!!!

- John

There are several F600's that you can fit in - the Novakar and the new car from Chris Huskamp come to mind. If it has a sportcar nose it probably has wider frame rails for your hips and the rest of the cockpit can be moved to fit. I should know, I am 6'3" and well over 240lbs and I fit in my old DareDevil F Mod. Now you have no reason not to go buy a F600 OR rent one from us to see what it is like - www.formula600racing.com
Don't forget to do a thorough investigation BEFORE buying any car.

Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982

[Rick Eskola]

Sent my letter! #12186

Rick Eskola
25 year member

[cory mcleod]

Just submitted letter #12308 opposing MEC engines in F500.

Cory

[lancer360]

Never mind