Never happier to be a part of FST

[rave motorsports]

I just read through the minutes of the FV Ad Hoc committee. I can honestly say I have never been happier about being a part of the FST family. My worst nightmare is that some how we get sucked back into that mess. Ohhh and a huge thank you to the great group of guys that had the foresight and courage to start Formula First.

[sracing]

A little history. 10+ years ago, several of us were individually thinking about a different FV package. We all came together in an RV at Mid-Ohio to discuss building a test car. In the meeting was me, Greg (my son), Bill Bonow, Butch Deer, and Bob Lybarger. (Forgive me if I left someone out.) We (SR built a couple test engines, Bob built the trans, Butch (DRE) supplied parts and Bill assembled the car. We later tested a few times at Mid-Ohio (and other places.) as an FS. The Initial rules package was done by Bill and SR with input from several others. There was also early involvement and support from Robert Guhde. With very minor changes the rules package has been stable for about 7? years. I am getting old so, I may be off on the dates and all the names, but that is close.

No matter how the FV/FST thing turns out, I feel proud to have been part of it and even better that the package works so well.

I will add that the Ad Hoc committee has a tough job and trying to get any agreement symmetry is tough. We basically did it via a troika dictatorship. :-) Much easier. Today our rules committee still consists of 3 people. But the only rules we have changed were a couple grams on rods, etc. only due to manufacturer tolerances.

[rave motorsports]

Thank all of you. I tend to get way to vocal. My bad. But I appreciate pioneers. Heh I live in Kansas and my great grandfather was a homesteader. But you know Pioneers take the first arrows. So I totally appreciate what it takes to be the first one to step off the cliff. I can just say this group if guys is where I wanna be.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I am very surprised by the sudden change of attitude by the FV committee. Almost like a surrender.

After years of arguing and being called the FV anti-Christ, because of my involvement in FST, it looks like the FST concept is finally getting some respect. "Imagine that"

Congrats to the pioneers that came up with the idea and made it a reality. I know they took a lot of heat over the years, as all true leaders do.

Feel free to enjoy a much deserved feeling of redemption right now.

[Jim Nash]

Where did you see the minutes?

Jim

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

http://formulavee.org/interchange/vi...hp?f=15&t=5117

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Just to be clear, the FV committee did not indicate a willingness to "throw in the towel" and simply convert all existing FV's to FST. Pistons and Cylinders have been an ongoing discussion, and although currently we are facing an issue, all hope is not lost.

The only reason the possibility and discussion has come up is because there is growing interest in allowing disc brakes in FV. A clear path for disc brake usage has not been established, so it would be foolish to not at least consider the options. One of those options being a cleaner path to a conversion.

Remember the FV's are still one of the biggest classes in SCCA. Take a look at the runoffs entry list so far. No matter what happens, FV is here for a long time yet. Even if a ball is set in motion to join the two classes, it will be many years down the road before it happens.

It should also be noted the committee used the phrase compromise, indicating a need on the FST communities part to possibly handle some changes as well.

[Mark Filip]

Just to be clear, the FV committee did not indicate a willingness to "throw in the towel" and simply convert all existing FV's to FST. Pistons and Cylinders have been an ongoing discussion, and although currently we are facing an issue, all hope is not lost.

The only reason the possibility and discussion has come up is because there is growing interest in allowing disc brakes in FV. A clear path for disc brake usage has not been established, so it would be foolish to not at least consider the options. One of those options being a cleaner path to a conversion.

Remember the FV's are still one of the biggest classes in SCCA. Take a look at the runoffs entry list so far. No matter what happens, FV is here for a long time yet. Even if a ball is set in motion to join the two classes, it will be many years down the road before it happens.

It should also be noted the committee used the phrase compromise, indicating a need on the FST communities part to possibly handle some changes as well.

Well said

[problemchild]

OMG, did this thread ever take a nasty turn.
FV will never evolve into FST. FST will never devolve into quasi-FST. The groups desperately need to work together to attract newbies into the combined race group, with common cars, suppliers, vendors, etc. When compared with the healthy race groups in North America, both classes are in trouble, and need to start accepting that and moving on. Maybe a moderator can just delete this thread and we can start over with a more positive tone.

[rgu]

I agree with this statement of Greg's wholeheartedly.

"The groups desperately need to work together to attract newbies into the combined race group, with common cars, suppliers, venders(sic), etc."

[sracing]

Just to be clear, the FV committee did not indicate a willingness to "throw in the towel" and simply convert all existing FV's to FST.

I didn't read it that way either, Al. And I wouldn't call it "throwing in the towel" anyways. However, nothing is moving forward with FV changes and there is no plan for the future. For years there has been talk about promotion of the class, parts shortages and costs. NOTHING has been done. The FFDA/FST has done all those things. I know that most of the reason is the requirement to have some consensus and that hasn't even been close. So unless something changes the towel has already been thrown in. That is to say, "just let the class go as it is until it dies."

It should also be noted the committee used the phrase compromise, indicating a need on the FST communities part to possibly handle some changes as well.

Interesting. I am not aware of any contact with the FFDA by the committee or anyone else regarding this. These discussions have been going on for 5+ years.

In spite of that; I am on the FST rules committee. While I can't speak for the group. I see of no compromise viable from FST. The package works. Any change backwards or to some other seemingly common ground would cost money that we have no need to spend. Do you know of any potential compromise that could work ? A DOT type tire COULD be possible, but our current tire package has a cost per session that is probably the same or less than any DOT.

Greg (Problemchild) mentioned the most important way to build either or both classes. Promotion. FST has done that with a passion. (Thanks R. Guhde.) No one outside of SCCA racing has ever heard of FV. 10+ year ago, I wrote the booklet "Getting Started in FV". About 900 copies have been sold. They have been given out at shows, SCCA schools, published in SportsCar Mag and even been sold on Ebay 2nd hand! I have heard from a couple dozen of those guys over the years who have started racing FV or FST largely from that exposure to the book. (and people say my involvement in FST has hurt the FV class.) I have promoted FV from my first race and still promote both classes. (including Vintage Vee)

Getting wordy now . Do something. See if the SCCA will help out. Racing magazines (not SportsCar) ads are cheap. Even SpeedChannel TV ads are inexpensive. Flyers and placards with a FV on display at a car show is almost free. Does anyone REALLY want to keep FV alive? Or just for a few more years until they are done with it? The only caveat is, you may not have enough P&C's, backing plates or good beams to build many cars.

[rave motorsports]

In our promotion of FST here in the Midwest it is totally obvious that its nessecary to look beyond current SCCA club racing participants. I've never been one in any business I have been involved in to set back and hope a customer walks in the door. Although just initially starting we already take an FST to the local circuit of German Car Club shows. We are signing up to display a car at several sport and leisure shows. We are also considering and introductory package for individuals brand new to Club Racing that would include coaching through the license process, safety equipment purchasing, loaner car for schooling as well as a package school pricing. One program will also contain a provision for us to buy the car back if they purchase from us and pay us for prepping and maintaining it for up to one year.
It's really easy to listen to what customers say in the sales process and identify potential ways to promote and sell

Bottom Line : Give enough people what they want and you get what you want.

[veefan]

OMG, did this thread ever take a nasty turn.

Finer words have never been written by Sir Problem Child

A small band of the Rebel Alliance in that RV 10 years ago got it right, they also did all the R&D.

Problems solved FV.

Why is it so hard to admit they got it right?

[Mark Filip]

Getting wordy now . Do something. See if the SCCA will help out. Racing magazines (not SportsCar) ads are cheap. Even SpeedChannel TV ads are inexpensive. Flyers and placards with a FV on display at a car show is almost free. Does anyone REALLY want to keep FV alive? Or just for a few more years until they are done with it? The only caveat is, you may not have enough P&C's, backing plates or good beams to build many cars.

Northeast promotes FV, we have done 2 shows in the past 6 months, we have trifold information flyers, business cards we hand out, a video that's played at shows so I believe there are a lot of people that want to see FV alive. This is my 4th year in FV and every year I have seen 1-2 new FV drivers ea of those. Ever since I have been reading these forums I have listened to FST people say how stupid FV people are because they don't want to change, how we told them drum brakes suck, parts are not available and so on and you know what? this may be true and that's fine, it will find its way or die like you say. And if that happens then FST may grow. I don't see how everyone keeps saying FST is growing and yup here is a new car that made the track I see 13 different cars have points in the series. 2 weeks ago we had more cars at the regional at the Glen. Listen I like FST but I won't drive around alone. There is not 1 reason to bash a class because your happy in another.

When I started in FV I was looking at another class until I looked at the class numbers. Then a local racer contacted me and helped me with everything, finding a car, picking a car up, school, rebuilding and showing me the way. We as northeast drivers do a lot to promote FV we just don't high five ea other when a new car hits the track.

And I will be shocked if this post is not deleted

[Mark Filip]

I just read through the minutes of the FV Ad Hoc committee. I can honestly say I have never been happier about being a part of the FST family. My worst nightmare is that some how we get sucked back into that mess. Ohhh and a huge thank you to the great group of guys that had the foresight and courage to start Formula First.

See everything here would have been fine except "My worst nightmare is that some how we get sucked back into that mess." Why did need to be said? Maybe this is the reason many FV drivers chose not to convert.

When a newbie enters the forums and starts to read all this crap and sees a line like that your demoting FV as a class.

[Jim Nash]

Please post links to instances of this...

"Ever since I have been reading these forums I have listened to FST people say how stupid FV people are because they don't want to change..."

Jim

[sracing]

See everything here would have been fine except "My worst nightmare is that some how we get sucked back into that mess." Why did need to be said? Maybe this is the reason many FV drivers chose not to convert. .

Mark, Rave already pointed out he may have gotten to vocal... But, if someone new were to come in and read some of the threads and issues facing FV, it could appear to be a "mess". "Mess' is a bit of an overstatement.

I think you might be right about people not converting to FST for political only reasons though. IF that is the reason it is a shame.

But, I have NEVER seen a post telling anyone they were stupid for not changing or even made an overt attempt to get someone to change if they weren't interested.

[Mark Filip]

Please post links to instances of this...

"Ever since I have been reading these forums I have listened to FST people say how stupid FV people are because they don't want to change..."

Jim

Are you serious? I will be here all night.

Off hand someone posted about adjusting brakes and there were at least 4 replies about disc brakes. Instead of just helping the guy and explaining how its done there was a debate about brakes WHY?

But, I have NEVER seen a post telling anyone they were stupid for not changing or even made an overt attempt to get someone to change if they weren't interested.

They didn't have to say the word "stupid" most of us are educated enough to understand what was being said.

[sracing]

Sorry Mark, I would still like to see a link to any post insinuating any stupidity on the part of FV drivers. (For brakes or otherwise.)

I HAVE seen many posts here by FV guys that WANTED discs, but they were not from FST drivers. Brian Harding made several comments about discs and he does not drive an FST.

[Daryl DeArman]

However, nothing is moving forward with FV changes and there is no plan for the future.

Seems to me that they are inquiring about whether a plan is desired or if they should just let the class run its' course.

In spite of that; I am on the FST rules committee. While I can't speak for the group. I see of no compromise viable from FST. The package works. Any change backwards or to some other seemingly common ground would cost money that we have no need to spend. Do you know of any potential compromise that could work ?

FST doesn't need to change their package, as you say, it works. However, the participation numbers across the Country, 10ish years after inception are abysmal. Clearly, eventhough the package works, it's not attracting too many current FV folks.

If/When FV dies on the vine, what's going to happen to FST? I'd bet more FV folks retire than convert. Seems a golden opportunity is being missed.

Can both the FST and FV folks benefit from a merging of two classes?

Make FST the clear prefered package from a competitive standpoint without changing anything to their rules. Stronger numbers across the Country could only help to sell more FST's (especially if they are the faster package).

Give the FV's their disk brakes if they want them. A larger/longer duration cam and larger intake valve. Speed them up a bit---maybe 70HP target at current weight. That gives people that have lots invested in their current FV set up a place to race for quite awhile. Sure it's going to devalue their package a bit (being a clear underdog) but not as much as not having any parts or place to race will.

Those that have tons of FV parts in their stash and maybe 5-10 years left in their racing career would probably be against it. They have nothing to gain unless they think FV's going away before they plan to themselves.

Does anyone REALLY want to keep FV alive? Or just for a few more years until they are done with it? The only caveat is, you may not have enough P&C's, backing plates or good beams to build many cars.

I'd suspect that much of the class has enough bits and been around long enough that they probably just want to ride it out. The remainder either plan on being in FV for just a short time (as a true entry level deal) or don't want to spend money to convert.

I believe a great opportunity is just around the corner, neither parties doing something to capitalize on it would be a shame.

That's my $.02.

[Jim Nash]

Response edited after asking myself what the objective really was.

Jim

[Mark Filip]

Sorry Mark, I would still like to see a link to any post insinuating any stupidity on the part of FV drivers. (For brakes or otherwise.)

I HAVE seen many posts here by FV guys that WANTED discs, but they were not from FST drivers. Brian Harding made several comments about discs and he does not drive an FST.

I'm not going to point out anyones post then listen to them defend it I'm all set. Everyone knows there is a few very vocal people that always seem to point out FV is dated and is dying and FST is the way we should all go and again that may be but yet I still see Fv as one of the largestest class nationwide. So maybe every class is dead.

[Chris Elwell]

S

When a newbie enters the forums and starts to read all this crap and sees a line like that your demoting FV as a class.

Mark just hit the nail on the head. There's always talk of attracting young drivers, but all the doom and gloom threads on here about FV kill that.

[veefan]

Young new drivers?

You can't buy brand new clean straight FV rims?

New pistons and cylinders... the FV 77MM manufacture has now bailed?

Any young smart driver that wants to do this for a few years... aint't going to FV

check out the spec Miata numbers, it's clear where they are going!

[sracing]

FST doesn't need to change their package, as you say, it works. However, the participation numbers across the Country, 10ish years after inception are abysmal. Clearly, eventhough the package works, it's not attracting too many current FV folks

.

We weren't even a class when we started. We were in the FS catchall class. No run-offs with no one to run with. We are still a "Regional Only" class. (by design) Most of the FV guys want to run both R and N's. and/or the run-offs. Plus we never promoted or attempted to convert FV drivers to the class. The majority of our drivers were never FV drivers OR were drivers that came back to racing after a FV layoff. There are about 20+ running FST's mostly in this area. There are several under construction (including one in our shop now.) FST became a Regional class 5 years ago, with no manufacture support or no SCCA support in the middle of a recession. I wouldn't call that "dismal".

If/When FV dies on the vine, what's going to happen to FST? I'd bet more FV folks retire than convert. Seems a golden opportunity is being missed.

I suspect you are right about retiring rather than converting. That was one of my points.

Can both the FST and FV folks benefit from a merging of two classes?

I don't know what that means. There is no way to make them competitive against each other.

Give the FV's their disk brakes if they want them. A larger/longer duration cam and larger intake valve. Speed them up a bit---maybe 70HP target at current weight.

Unless they go with a VW BJ beam and discs (that are still in production) they will have to go with a "frankenstein' aftermarket that may or may not be around for 5 years,... at a much higher price.

70 HP from a 1192cc ?. You would need to boost them or spin them to 7500 RPM. Who makes 1200 heads with a larger induction? You need more carb and cam and better internals. It would make the existing FV package terrible.

I believe a great opportunity is just around the corner, neither parties doing something to capitalize on it would be a shame.

I am not sure what the FST group can do to capitalize on anything for FV? You could make an FV faster, but going with some kind of soup'd up 1200 would really be a mess.

I see them only as 2 different classes. I don't think FV should change in any way unless it is to provide for an immediate parts shortage etc. There is already a tested migration path from FV to FST, but until the FV community choses to go with that and the SCCA agrees, they will remain separate classes.

[Mark Filip]

Young new drivers?

You can't buy brand new clean straight FV rims?

New pistons and cylinders... the FV 77MM manufacture has now bailed?

Any young smart driver that wants to do this for a few years... aint't going to FV

check out the spec Miata numbers, it's clear where they are going!

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....D601%2D025%2DE

In stock

check out the spec Miata numbers, it's clear where they are going!

The body shop?

[sracing]

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....D601%2D025%2DE

In stock

Mark, I THINK you made a comment about Chinese parts? These are Chinese and 4.5 inches instead of 4 and weigh about 3+ lbs more than the original FV's.

No one up front is running them.

[Mark Filip]

Mark, I THINK you made a comment about Chinese parts? These are Chinese and 4.5 inches instead of 4 and weigh about 3+ lbs more than the original FV's.

No one up front is running them.

Is there no Chinese parts on a FST?


Wheels shall be standard fifteen (15) inch X 4J as used on the 1200cc and 1300cc VW sedan as defined herein, or any steel (15) inch X 4.5J wheel within the track dimensions of C.2. Wheels may be balanced only by the use of standard automotive balance weights (adhesive or clip on). Hub cap clips shall be removed.

No one up front is running them.

Are you saying the front runners could not win if they had these wheels?

[Daryl DeArman]

.There are about 20+ running FST's mostly in this area. There are several under construction (including one in our shop now.) FST became a Regional class 5 years ago, with no manufacture support or no SCCA support in the middle of a recession. I wouldn't call that "dismal".

I guess we'll just have to disagree as to whether or not 52 cars that have turned a wheel as an FST anywhere in the USA after 5-ish years is abysmal or not. I think so.....but for some perspective it's probably more "net entries gained" than more than half of the classes. So FST numbers/growth is abysmal, just not as abysmal as others

I don't know what that means. There is no way to make them competitive against each other.

In my opinion they don't have to be. Just closer. A top flight FST compared to a new and improved top flight FV could be closer than the current spread at your typical FV or FST race.

70 HP from a 1192cc?. You would need to boost them or spin them to 7500 RPM. Who makes 1200 heads with a larger induction? You need more carb and cam and better internals. It would make the existing FV package terrible.

1mm larger intake valve is a no-brainer. Aftermarket cams are plentiful. I'm not sure what you mean by "existing FV package terrible"---if you mean that other weaknesses in the engine would be exposed. I'll have to defer to you on that one. If you mean the rest of the car (package) would become terrible. I'd have to disagree. Granted I didn't race FV for a long time, but I never thought another 10HP or so would make this one nasty beast.

I am not sure what the FST group can do to capitalize on anything for FV? You could make an FV faster, but going with some kind of soup'd up 1200 would really be a mess.

I see them only as 2 different classes. I don't think FV should change in any way unless it is to provide for an immediate parts shortage etc. There is already a tested migration path from FV to FST, but until the FV community choses to go with that and the SCCA agrees, they will remain separate classes.

There's about 700 entries there per season. Yes the path is already there, but folks aren't making that change en masse. Combine the 2 classes and make the FST the dominate package without changing anything FST and people will convert at a faster rate than they are now. The FST folks would have nothing to lose. My crystal ball says FV folks won't support it as they don't want to be also-rans. They'll wait until it's a crisis for them and then want immediate change and some attempt at parity.

FV as we now know it will not last forever. Even the committee used the word "inevitable". The FV racers can be proactive or reactive. The Kent/Fit issue is an example that shouldn't be ignored. FF Kent folks did too little/too late. The Fit was in, and now arguably, is the package to have. The Fit would have never been desired if there was a parts/reliability/value algorithm being met.

[FVRacer21]

Just to put some perspective in this.

Most countries around the world have their own FV rules. England is about the area of New England and even Australia, when you look at the populated area is no larger that California. They manage their rules as they operate almost on a local club basis, and usually around a select group of race tracks.

If you wonder why FST has not spread from the Midwest is because of the inertia of 50 years of FV, and a thousand existing cars spread all over this country. When you propose a change, it is a BIG deal as it affects all these cars.

As far as parts go - there are more than enough parts scattered about in people's garages and in multiple spare motors and cars collecting dust. Maybe we would have a problem if we were racing on the same level as 1990, but today there are many parts sitting unused.

The class is driven (pun intended) from the top. Unless you change the rules that the "National" guys can agree to, you will not get anywhere as all SCCA classes are driven by the National Runoffs.

If you want to look at how other classes are doing - study the FF Fit change and also the entire Sports Racing evolution that is happening. (The Honda engine came from the bottom up to seek equity)

And BTW - FST and FV are not enemies - FF (now) and SRF have engines that last multiple seasons. F600 benefits from a smaller group so it might be easier to convert. Spec Miata benefits from the large number of autocrossers and track day people who can easily move up. These are a few of the competitors we face.

If FV and FST are the least expensive ways to go racing then that is what we have to focus on and keep preaching and showing why.

ChrisZ

[sracing]

Is there no Chinese parts on a FST?

Of course there are. (Like every car built in the last 15 years.) But, I THOUGHT you were the one that made the statement about not using Chinese parts?

Wheels shall be standard fifteen (15) inch X 4J as used on the 1200cc and 1300cc VW sedan as defined herein, or any steel (15) inch X 4.5J wheel within the track dimensions of C.2. Wheels may be balanced only by the use of standard automotive balance weights (adhesive or clip on). Hub cap clips shall be removed.

Are you saying the front runners could not win if they had these wheels?

Mark, of course they are legal. I didn't say that. But yes, I am pretty sure someone running an extra 15+ lbs of unsprung weight with wider rims is not running up front except in a 3 car race. Ask one of the front runners to use those rims and see what they say.

BUT, they are available and you can certainly have fun with them. The ISSUE was decent parts availability. I don't consider them decent for racing. And I assume you are aware of other parts issues. Someone could have been killed at the BD party due to the spindle break that sent a wheel through the paddock. Granted, there are some patches for some parts issues, all making it still more expensive

Probably ALL of the things concerning FV, could be addressed with patches, minor rules changes, etc, but all increase the cost and don't seem to have any group consensus.

[Mark Filip]

Jim I agree with you and your correct I have a problem with Chinese parts well most of them and I would not use them which is why I have looked for good German wheels that are lighter but that takes effort just like prepping the car I choose to do that, some people choose not. I was proving a point because someone stated you can not buy new wheels (that is false). Just like many of other statements that get thrown around and are bent and twisted which give new people a false impression of a class.

Also wanted to say John I know what you ment about the wheels but what you said just plants a idea in someones head (oh if I join FV I can not get wheels) and we know that is not the case.

Jim the first time I read your reply I was under the impression that 4.5" wheels were not allowed and questioned myself and had to look in the GCR to make sure. This is another think I'm talking about I new racer my look at stuff like this and get confussed.

Every class has it's problems and 100% of the people with not be happy so they move on and the class finds it's way and FV has been a pretty good job I would say after 50 years.


mental break for the weekend

[sracing]

and FV has been a pretty good job I would say after 50 years.

CLEARLY! It has been the most successful class in the world for a class with stable rules. And it has a few good years left. Again, I am talking about rules changes 3 to 5 years out.. It either dies, or must change. The FST package works and will easily add several more years to a ACVW entry class. Call it FV or FST, who cares?, but that package will keep it going. It will prevent the demise and at least devaluing of many "modern" (non vintage vees). We could get another 20 years out of the "Vee" with converted FV's and the new crop of purpose built FST's.

Engine and suspension, etc changes in other classes are common. Since so many T1 1200's VW's were built, we had a great advantage and long run with the existing Vee. But I think everyone knew (or should have) that it couldn't go on forever.

Again, don't do anything and that is fine. FST will continue on as is. But for those wanting to extend the life of FV, I see no other practical solution than the FST package or something very similar. Conversion of a FV to FST is far cheaper than going to another class and I think better than parking it in the garage.

IMO considering another (non VW) engine package would certainly not be in the best interest of anyone. Every part in a 1600 engine is still being produced and will continue since there are so many aftermarket manufactures and buyers..

[Steve Hill]

I see the virus is spreading......

[gbmetcalf]

In my humble opinion.
FV is huge but has a challange. FST is growing and evolving.
How I see it is, both classes run the best, easiest, and most fun engine package ever developed.

Wether you run a 1200, drum brakes and skinny tires or a 1600, disk brakes and fat tires. We all need to communicate and work together to promote both classes to newbies and the public.

The SCCA does their members a major disservice by being non-spectator and silent.

The local bull rings promote the heck out of their weekly races.
Ask J.Q. Public what a FV or a FST is and all you get is a blank stare....But ask him what a street stock is....He will talk an hour on where he saw them last and what drivers he likes.

There is a lesson to be learned there somewhere.

Is there a way to promote both classes as a package to tracks and the public? Something to educate and bring the VW enthuiast out. We also need to let the newbies come to the races with a tour guide or experienced racer to answer questions.

Just hate this FV-vs-FST crap.
We all are here to race and have fun. Why not turn all this discussion into a
VW-vs-anyone else?

JMO
G.

[WASP]

I agree with Rave Motorsports line of thinking. A FV guy is not going to change and the F1st guy is convinced that the class is the right way to go. Therefore new racers are
the target. I like both classes and have cars for both classes, but this is not practical
for most racers. How about just an engine flex? As a builder I favor allowing some aero flexability. I think the 1st rules permit some flexability to get the driver thinking about aero and setup that preps them for future step-up. Let us design towards a car
that is a small version of of the other open wheel cars and become a real stepping stone for any open wheel class. It wouldn't be that costly.
How about booth space at the PRI show with a 1st and a Vee on display? I would be glad to supply a Wasp 1st at any event it is needed.

[sracing]

How about booth space at the PRI show with a 1st and a Vee on display? I would be glad to supply a Wasp 1st at any event it is needed. .

The PRI show would be a great venue, but a 10 x 20 booth is $3200. Other costs would also be involved. So maybe a bit much with no FV promotion funds available that I am aware of. Might be a bit of a stretch.

The SCCA normally displays there and MAYBE a shared 10 x 30 (or 10 x 40?) booth would be negotiable? I am sure there are lots of videos available (FV and FST) that could be running, with handouts. (Example : http://formula-first.org/)

The great thing about the PRI show along with the exposure, is that it is in Indy, which is the center of most grass roots FV/FST racing.

I (SR) might be able to dig up $500 to contribute. I MIGHT be able to convince the FFDA to chip in another $500. (They DO have promotional funds.)

So who is serious about promotion? (except for dtime )

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I didn't mean to take this thread into another contest of FV vs. FST. My intention was to clarify the original post before rumors and conspiracy theorys took hold regarding the future of FV. The orginal post (I think it has since been edited?) implyed that the FV committee has started down a path of converting to FST and hence the "throwing in the towel". My point was that is not the case.

Both classes have their own pros / cons and their own struggles. But every class in SCCA is the same way currently. As much as I wish there was a single FV class, it appears neither are going away anytime in the immediate future. The real test will be in the coming year or two with the demise of Nationals. Other then at Majors events now, both FV and FST will have to play together on the track. We have no choice but to get along now. If done correctly, perhaps the two classes can use each other to prosper as a whole.

Michael Varacins

[Amon]

Mike,

With the demise of Nationals, are the Regional drivers going to be seperate and
scored apart from the National drivers as finishing postions, such as CF vs. FF
or are they going to have to compete for the overall win only? There are many
regional championships across the country and I was wondering how they'll be
effected?

Mark

[Bill Bonow]

The orginal post (I think it has since been edited?)

Any edits performed by the original poster or a mod will indicate the time and date of the edit at the bottom of the post. That being said, the original post has not been edited.

The real test will be in the coming year or two with the demise of Nationals. Other then at Majors events now, both FV and FST will have to play together on the track. We have no choice but to get along now. If done correctly, perhaps the two classes can use each other to prosper as a whole.

The FV/FST playing together test has been going on in Cen Div, Great Lakes Div and the western portion of NE Div for the past decade. They get along much better than the alternative "everything open wheeled" being seen in many other divisions

Mark,

Regionals become Divisionals and host a path to the Runoffs (for National classes). Many divisions (Great Lakes as an example) currently host many Divisional series (CFF, CFC, ect.). That will remain unchanged.