SRF June Sprints start
Brian, you got robbed.
IMHO it appears that someone was trying to force another pace lap.
Never never let the car in your row get that far ahead of you.
And remember that once the green drops, (except on restarts) it is racing throughout the field no matter where you are.
Is that not the case on restarts?Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
I thought the driver on the pole set's the pace. Not the guy from two rows back.
Was the car in the lead the new Fiesta powered thing?
If so, I can see the reasoning for a gap but a gap that big was not needed as he would power away from the rest on the start anyway.
When the green drops, the track is green no matter how slow the leader is. If the person on the radio says green green green, I go. Also, if the leader (I assume the Fiesta powered car) has a gap THAT big on 2nd place, I would assume 2nd has a mechanical issue and I would have passed you long before 14 anyway. I would assume you are stuck in 1st gear or something.
You can see the leader take off, assuming that was when the green fell.
I see no issue based on my assumptions.
When the car goes blowing by in the video, you can't even see the starter stand!!!And his camera is probably 8"above his helmet.
Brian was the pole sitter. The car way out front was the next gen SRF that SCCA stupidly allowed to race in the second biggest race of the year. It appears that people deep in the field went when Mike Davies in the Next gen car got the green and chaos ensued. And this brought out the problem we have debated here before, Green flag with double yellow still showing. Everyone has their feeling on that and no one is gonna bend so no point in having that convo again. Davies car should never have been in that race or failing that should never have been shown a green ( just let him take off on his own ) since there is basically zero chance of a wave off on a 4 mile pace lap. The green will be thrown and black flags thrown if someone tries to jump the official start. If for whatever reason they do wave off the start they could have slowed Davies down with double yellows and tried again next lap.
Basically the pole sitter got screwed then taken out by someone who shouldn't have been there.
I am curious if this was discussed in the June Sprints drivers meeting for this class.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Runoffs 1 Gold 3 Silver 3 bronze, 8 Divisional , 6 Regional Champs , 3x Drivers of the year awards
You don't need to see the green to go. Once the leader gets the green, even if you are still in T12, the track is green under normal conditions.
So it appears the NextGen car thing caused some confusion. Take that car away, and Brian was to control the pace.
Like Kevin said, pretty stupid to have that car out there like that.
The first car was the srf gen3. He was leading the field and was suppose to take off. Which he did. I was asked to lay back and pace the field for the green. Drivers in the back decided to go on his green flag instead of the fields green flag. If you look to the right you can see the double yellow is still out for the field at the top of the hill.
Would, you be happy with that start?
Astonishing blunder on the part of the SCCA. Someone owes you an apology for that one.
That whole thing was pretty piss poor.
My guess is that an uninformed crew member or two on pit wall called the green flag over his radio when the Gen 3 car went by, not realizing that it wasn't the pole sitter. Honest mistake since they sound so much alike...
Were there any protests or Stewards actions? Your video clearly shows multiple passes under yellow.
That makes more sense. Sounds like a massive communication failure that that was what was to happen. Very confusing and extreamly difficult to conduct. The Gen3 car should have been black flagged rather than have two greens for one class.
Mike B hit is on the head.
Brian, in that scenario you got hosed. Sorry to see you put in that position, I know how it feels getting bent over at the Sprints while owning the lead.
I am surprised people don't expect to get shafted at that event.
Yes. That is the rule. Green means go weather you see the flag or not. It is like the tree falling in the woods, you don't have to see it (the green flag) to know that it is in reality, flying. If you are back to far to see, and your crew guy says green, you go. Simple as that.
However....
This particular race had a different set of rules apparently, and under those rules (2 green flags) Brian got shafted. Really a very difficult thing to pull off with a field of that size and ensure everyone is on the same page, crew included.
Looks like maybe the Starter was not on the same page either. He should have pulled the green after the Gen3 car, and then hidden it while the real cars approached.
Maybe someone on pit lane could confirm he continued waving the flag?
Really, another botched Sprints. At a third look, the Pit lane flag station is showing double yellow to the field at the bridge so all of those cars should have been black flagged.
Sorry Brian. It sucks.
Last edited by reidhazelton; 06.19.13 at 10:43 PM.
From what I've heard, there was supposed to be nothign for the Gen3 car and then green for the regular field. And people up front were told that.
It looks like the people up front obeyed it. Obviously they forgot to tell #31...
I can't believe that there weren't any actions taken, with such clear cut video evidence.
Doesn't look so clear cut to me. How do we know the starter didn't screw the pooch and wave the green for Gen3 SRF? Which if what Joe heard is correct, the rest of the field would interpret as their green.
I think it sucks for the front row. I can understand the WTH gesture to the starter stand. After that, focus on racing and get down to business. It's likely that if he would have done that he would have been clear of their kamikaze actions. Clearly he could put down a fantastic lap or he wouldn't have qualified where he did. Let that crap happen behind you, not right in front of you.
I'm not sure what penalty or infraction occured during this debacle. The GCR clearly states in section 6.2.2 that the moment the green flag waves, the race in underway.
There is always a delay between when the green comes out, and the corner stations drop the double yellow. The stations receive over the radio that the race is green, then remove the yellows.
If drivers were not supposed to go when the green came out, then when were they supposed to go? Wait until each driver passed the double yellow?
I'm pretty confident I would have done the same thing. On a start, if the green is out on the bridge I am going.
So there can be no split starts anymore? This was a split start between classes.
It wasn't a split. The drivers were told ahead of time the first "class" wasn't going to get a green. If the drivers in the second "class" are under the assumption there will be only one green, then when the green comes out what else were they supposed to do? Stop and discuss if they should go or not?
There is an in-depth discussion on the the Spec Racer forum
http://www.specracer.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=876 Start at post 6 from Erik
Looks like a good idea gone horribly wrong
Terry
I think all we can take from this is no one knew what was going on and no one was on the same page.
Typical June Sprints race control.
I spent most of the last two days researching what happened and crafting the following response to a letter from the pole-sitter asking for an explanation of what happened:
= = = = = = = =
I was in Impound for the Group 3 race and didn’t see the start of your race, but I’ve heard from all three stewards involved this past weekend and feel I have a pretty good idea of what happened.
As I mentioned yesterday, the first the Series Chief Steward heard the SRF3 would be running was Friday morning. I take full responsibility for dropping the ball on that. Mike Davies started from pit road at CoTA and I assumed he would do the same here, but there appears to have been “general knowledge” of how things would work differently last weekend. The SCS asked multiple parties (including Mike) about it and was told, “It’s been handled.” In retrospect we should have pursued this line of questioning further, but hindsight is always 20-20.
Apparently Mike went down the line in Grid to inform the rest of you what he would do. I haven’t talked to Mike, but I’m guessing he didn’t talk to the entire field and I’d also assume some of the crew members were not there when he talked to their drivers. What I DO know is no one told Start what the procedure was. Again, lesson learned.
I’m sure you’re aware that drivers (and crew) will react to the slightest movement on the start stand. For that reason starters are taught to not flinch, blink, or even breathe as the field is approaching. In this case, however, the starter was surprised by Mike coming full speed up the straight and (in his “WTF?” moment) reacted by throwing a half-hearted (and late – Mike was almost under the stand) green. I have no idea what (if anything) he was hearing in his headset, but in the confusion the green flag was shown so, per the GCR, the race had begun.
Again in retrospect, the best thing to do would have been to immediately go Black Flag All, reassemble the field in the original order on Pit Road, and start the race again (this time with everyone on the same page). As an example of Race Control’s desire to “do things right”, Sunday morning was delayed because Grid had the wrong grid sheets and elected to take the time to get things right even if it cost us a half-hour (a lesson learned from the 2011 SM race). In this case, however, there was no precedent to fall back on and the damage was done before people had a chance to figure things out.
You came down pit road and informed the Steward of the Course you wanted to file a protest. The SOC called the SCS on the radio and he was standing there with a protest form in hand when you came back. He NEVER told you that you couldn’t file a protest but did say it would probably not be upheld since the course was green. He also had to deal with metal-to-metal contact between drivers (so he had other things on his mind) and because of that may have given the impression you were wasting his time, but I find it very difficult to believe he blew you off. Based on personal experience, I’m sure copious amounts of adrenaline were still flowing as well.
Sunday morning the SOM reviewed various in-car videos (including yours) of the start, heard from F&C workers, and decided that penalizing drivers for errors caused by event officials was unjustified. They did not seek out your input because it was obvious from your video that multiple people had passed under Double Yellow (all of which was supported by the witness statements), so that was not in question. We should have informed you why we did not get back with you.
On Sunday we went to a full split start with two pace cars and the Double Yellow at Turn 15 (the front straight bridge) was dropped when the Pace Car lights went out. I’m sure you’ll agree that start went much better, and we’ll use a version of that procedure for the rest of the 2013.
Despite internet rumors, EVERYONE here agrees running the SRF3 with SRF is the best way to both develop the car and showcase it to potential new customers. To that end, Erik Skirmants and I are developing procedures for running the cars together during the “transition” period until the new car becomes the class standard. It will still involve a “full” split start (even if there’s only one SRF3 attending) but we also need to figure out how to handle the possibility/eventuality of “speed challenged” drivers in the SRF3 messing up the SRF races. Obviously this isn’t a problem with Mike or more experienced drivers, but we want to be prepared for when the car gets rolled out to less talented drivers.
Granted I’m offering no heads on a platter, but we’re taking measures to make sure such a thing doesn’t happen again. It’s unfortunate and I’m sorry I didn’t foresee this happening. If you have additional questions or comments, I’m available via either e-mail or telephone.
Hope to see you at the track soon…
= = = = = = =
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
"Despite internet rumors, EVERYONE here agrees running the SRF3 with SRF is the best way to both develop the car and showcase it to potential new customers."
I have to disagree whole-heartedly on this. "Development time" during the June Sprints race? I sacrifice precious time and money to bring my car to the track. To risk on-track interaction with a vehicle that is not a valid entrant in one of the classes I am racing with is not acceptable, no matter how small the risk. Even if the SRF3 spins out and brings out a short local yellow is not acceptable in my book. NOT ON MY TIME.
Sorry, I see this as all risk and no reward.
uhhhhhhhh,
if the gen 3 car is still just being displayed during the races of others( is it even being run at the correct wieght this time?) why the hell wouldnt it be run from the back of the field; started from pit road about a 1/2 lap back of the field?
if the scca thinks its ok to do this test/display during peoples races who take this seriously enough to spend the time and effort it takes to go to the sprints then they are very foolish; expect that there is really nowhere else for srf guys to race except SCCA since its an SCCA class.
how does a spec race class' race get ruin by a car that is not even in spec to the current rules................ this crap would not make people gravitate towards this class.
poorly exectuted choice scca.
I watched the Gen 3 car run from the back thru the field at COTA. From a spectator's view point, great fun to watch it move up through the field. He seemed to make judicious, courteous passes. It was impressive & got me seriously considering SRF. 85 cars racing hard. The drivers of SRF certainly would have a different view point. It would seem that starting at the rear makes more sense. Obviously, The hazard is IF the Gen 3 messes with the SRF race... In the meantime, I'm adding another cookie jar for the new Gen 3
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Butch something doesn't add up.
Starter saw Mike/Gen3 breaking away from the field and was 'confused' and threw the green just because a car was coming up the hill?. If that's the case he shouldn't have thrown the green at all. Bad field, etc. Waving head and do it again was the correct choice if he didn't know the Gen3 was going to break away from the field.
Brian,
I saw the video and I've seen the various explanations as to how/why this occurred. You got screwed.
Zambo
Butch,
I watched part of this video on Saturday afternoon, and at the time didn't understand the whole thing... Even then, I said "Why the hell is the new car running out there with an impact to the real race?"...
So - "Everyone"? I don't think so. I'm here on the internet and I think if you want to show it off - you park it somewhere where everyone can see and run it during the touring sessions. You ruined Brian's (and more I am sure, like positions 2-10 as well)) entire event.
The car isn't even running at full speed, from Erik:
"Mike ran a ton of 37's in the races; being careful...GEN3 in a gravel trap, causing a yellow would be... ummm...bad press"
How to fix it going forward?
Fix the starter who screwed it up. Not throwing, throwing, half-showing flag, etc - all needs to be second nature to perform 100% all the time for him.
Dont run the car. I hope your "transition" period means you won't run the car again. You changed one of the most standard practices in racing - the start - to something new, untested, and not shared with the entire field... Everytime you run that car from now on - there will be people that will hold negative feelings about it, you, and the srf sprints race. Bury it.
Regards,
Mike
---------
Mike Green
Piper DF2 FF
"EVERYONE..." is obviously incorrect. What I should have written was "everyone who has a vested interest in the continued success of this class...".
The immediate reaction was to eliminate the SRF3 from races going forward - let it run during practice and qualifying sessions, but not races. That idea was quickly rejected by the folks most interested in the class, including the CSRs, Brian and multiple other front running drivers. They want to show what the car can do in race conditions in order to showcase the car to potential customers that may or may not currently be racing in SRF. The feeling is this car is the future of the class, and even the limited exposure so far has generated a list of over 150 "soft" orders for the upgrade kits plus almost 30 pre-orders for brand new cars with the new engine. Even though it will not be Runoffs-eligible until at least 2015, expect to see more and more of these cars on the track in the next eighteen months.
Those who want to crucify the starter have no idea what he was hearing in his headset as Mike was accelerating up the front straight. The fact that it was a late (and lazy) green indicates he was getting conflicting messages. Do we want race officials to be perfect on every occasion? Sure. The driver that's never missed an apex or driven off the outside of a corner can be the first to demand that.
Did Brian get hosed? Yes. What seems to be getting lost is on Sunday the start went perfectly and the SRF3 had no impact on the SRF race (and Brian ended up winning in a great battle). We have the model for running the cars together going forward, we just need to make sure everyone's on the same page BEFORE the cars leave the grid.
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
How the STARTER, of all people, did not know what was going on is unforgivable. The information was not properly passed down through the chain of command. Having someone explain the procedure to the starter as the cars were coming up the hill is just wrong.
Brian could not see the starter when cars started passing him as he was on the incline of the front straight. He saw double yellows to the right. I don't think any driver saw the flag, the drivers with radios heard from the crews who saw the green flag and they went. The starter could not see the cars coming up the hill so his half heartedly waving of the green continued as the starter was confused.
At least a wave off should have been done, but more importantly, communication to the starter BEFORE the race would have been the correct procedure.
Mick Robinson
No F*****g way...
that Gen 3 car belonged in that race.
I'd say official test day only, no practice sessions, no quallies, and FFS, certainly not on track at the same time for the actual RACE!
When the Pro FM was being developed back about '02 or '03, it was allowed to take part in SMPS test days. THAT seemed to work perfectly, as I recall no issues.
Even if...
there was bad communication, even if the starter simply blew it...
Why couldn't the field be gathered up behind the pace car and restarted,
or
black flag ALL and a restart?
Why let this obvious screw-up continue?
couldn't agree more Coop. They don't need to demonstrate anything to anyone. They have 800 cars that are basically locked into eventually having to convert, even if no one is willing to admit that yet. And test days are plenty to put mileage on for reliability testing. Mike Davies is a top notch pilot but there is no way around that car getting in the way.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Are you talking about 2011 SM, 2012 FF/FE, or 2013 SRF?
Status quo....when things get messed up, just do nothing and let the drivers take it up the exhaust pipe.
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