Race groupings

[farrout]

Good point - I hadn't made that connection. Why is that the only date available? Is there no other group that would want to trade for Labor Day weekend?

A bit of a complicated situation. SEDIV has a pretty full schedule and there is not enough slack in it to easily find another date. The SARRC (our Regional Championship series) has rules about putting SARRC races too close to another SARRC event. Most of the Regions who put on SARRC races have had dates at their local track for many years and do not want or cannot due to the track schedule change. Same is true for the National events. SEDIV has had the Labor Day weekend at Barber for the past few years. Barber itself is pretty well booked all year and there are few if any opportunities for another weekend.. Going in mid summer is not desirable due to the heat.

It is something to look at however to see what might be possible.

[Marshall Mauney]

SEDIV has a pretty full schedule and there is not enough slack in it to easily find another date. [...] Most of the Regions who put on SARRC races have had dates at their local track for many years and do not want or cannot due to the track schedule change. Same is true for the National events. [...]
It is something to look at however to see what might be possible.

Will this still be the case under next year's changes that eliminate nationals in favor of Majors? IMO, Barber would be a great venue for hosting a Major, and is a lot closer for people in MWDiv, GLDiv and NEDiv than the Florida tracks - you might find more attendance from out-of-region than you can draw at PBIR, Roebling, or Daytona.

Just a thought....

[FV90]

This weekend at Road Atlanta was another sad showing of the lower speed formula cars turn out. You might have the excuse that they made them combine all wings and things together for qualifing but the actual race on Saturday/Sunday was seperate and the turnout was (Sunday) 2 FF's 1 F6 and 1FV for the whole race. 4 cars is really gonna impress the organizers to keep y'all seperate.

[Keith Carter]

Possibly too many different sandboxes to play in... All of the pro series really sucked the attendance out of SCCA events. A lot of disgruntled SCCA membership have gone elsewhere. It's going to take something the SCCA has that nobody else does with a real attractive offering for things to change.

[Halifax]

I just ran the F1200 race at Mosport (CTMP) and we had a 21 car field to start the weekend. We had 3 20 minute races a practice and qualifying. The cost to tow was $342.00. from near Gettysburg. The racing was great 1.7 cover the front 8 cars in tow of the races. At $360 for the set of tires and rims were new at $340 for set basically the cost of a set of slicks i can run for 3 season that's 6 race weekends each year. That more then offset's my travel and I get to race with only F1200's. We have been talking about setting up a four race series in New York and Ontario. But if you are in the Ohio, New York, PA, Vermont, NJ area you should really look at this Ontario series. I ran the Pro Vee series in the 90's and this is just as good and the tires really are easy to drive on . Also the dollar is a little stronger now then the Canadian dollar.

I'm definitely going to look into racing in the Ontario series for 2014. I live in NW CT and I like the tire economics. In a modest season here, I'm looking at $2400 just for tires... too expensive. We have had to cut back on the number of races to keep the budget acceptable (that early career decision to work for a non-profit instead of working on Wall Street has come back to roost ;-)

If we adopted the Canadian tire model, I'd definitely add two weekends to my annual race sked.

[tamnoz]

My wife and I have run the MARRS series for over 20 years and both decided to boycott MARRS events this year. Certain Powers to Be in WDC would like to see all open wheel cars go away to leave more room for SM and SSM. My comment to them was why don't they fold the Club and join NASA if they want only closed wheel cars. All FV drivers collectively decided to boycott their series and went to NJMP, Pocono, and WGI where we were grouped with FF and CF. At these events we were treated as eqauls and not the red headed step child. WDC didn't mind all the money they made off of FV back in the 90's when we regularly had 20+ car fields.
Jim Oswald

[Amon]

Jim,

Good for you and those that boycotted the MARRS series! Until you hurt them in the
pocket book time and time again, they'll turn a deaf ear to you. Sooner or later, the
SM and SSM classes will cease to be so dominant, and hopefully they'll see the error
of their ways???? There are a couple regions here in Ohio who completely exclude FV's
from their weekend's, so I feel your pain!


Mark

92' Protoform P-1

[ajpastore]

I'm definitely going to look into racing in the Ontario series for 2014. I live in NW CT and I like the tire economics. In a modest season here, I'm looking at $2400 just for tires... too expensive.

Harry..that's a whole lotta tire! 3 sets? How many races you plan on doing?
Maybe cut back a bit and stay local. We need you here!
The North East is going to a great place be a vee racer again next year.
Andy

[Mark Filip]

Harry..that's a whole lotta tire! 3 sets? How many races you plan on doing?
Maybe cut back a bit and stay local. We need you here!
The North East is going to a great place be a vee racer again next year.
Andy

I agree Andy

Harry I flipped my tires between weekends this year and the tires lasted and felt better much longer. Last year I just about wanted to hang myself over tires as they were not lasting long. Maybe you have a set up issue that was part of my problem last year.

[Pinky096]

I race a FV. I understand the gropuing issues with formula cars. It sucks to have to have your race interrupted every half a lap by a faster class, but at least Im still on track racing. The one thing I have yet to understand(and an official who tried to explain the reasoning behind it just confused me) is why at the Barber SARRC this year did they start the F600 guys behind the Vees. I know they wanted a split start, but why couldnt the vees ahve been at the back of their split start. They caught us by the end of lap one and I know I had to break up a couple of F600s to make my turn ins. And then after the 600s passed us Jim Downing and the Formula Mazda pack had caught us. Like I said I understand the reasoning behind the grouping(it sucks but it is how it is), but why do something like a messed up split start and increase the amount of lapping going on?

[farrout]

Good point, Andrew.

F600 got a split start because they asked for it and backed it up by bringing a number of cars to the race.

Putting the FF/FV in the F600 start grouping is a good idea.

[FV90]

We had a couple of things play into the grouping - as farrout mentions F600 drivers requested a seperate group to promote their cars and race series. If the fastest F600 could have bettered any other race car qual time in the group then the F600 would have been the lead group in the split start (that would be hard to accomplish with DSR's/CSR's). Now why wasn't FV's and FF's not put in the group? Did anyone request that or get that group together to request that (we had 1 FF and 3 FV's)? When supps are approved then if there is any change to the group there is a procedure that is followed for the change to come about. We can complain on forums all you want but the real deal is there is power in groups and if you get enough entrants to request a change at an event then I have never seen a reasonable request denied. I have watched several races in SEDIV where there a 1 or 2 Vee's with 1 FF and some F5/6's to have a whopping big 5 or 6 in a race group - if that is good as it gets then you sholdn't complain when you are added to a handful of faster cars in another wings and things group.
Don't forget I drive a Vee as well and I remember not to long ago being able to run with 5 or 6 cars not 3 (not saying much but...). I'd like a seperate group as well but it is a diservce to the workers and regions putting an event when it becomes like the old Solo 1 days for a race
Don't give up either - notes were taken about the grouping at Barber and as hopefully the numbers increase we can make a better split.

[Garry Sharp]

I'm still not getting why it's a diservice to the Workers and the Race Organisers to have safe run groups I guess it's just me.

[FV90]

It is a diservice to workers and event officals to put out a group of 5 cars for a race group - WAKE UP. Safe groups - I agree that it is great to not have to worry about 20 or more seconds a lap cars blowing buy us but how much time do you actually spend to get people interested in FST or FV, at least I'll give kudos to F600 for actually doing more than just entering an event.
If there were a dozen FV's a few FST's FF's and such to make a descent sized group then I'm sure that would change some minds in SEDIV - take a look at the big group 5 for the ARRC - 2 cars. Wow another opportunity and how do you guys respond you bitch on a forum - and don't show up when there is an opportunity, prove me wrong and sign-up Gary.

[Garry Sharp]

I don't care who it is, where it is, or what class it is, I'm just wondering WHY you think it is a diservice to have 5 cars in a run group.
I'm not trying to criticize anybody. There just seems to be a lot of guys out there that think car count shouldn't dictate run groups.

P,S. It's hard to sign up for a race when your car doesn't run. I guess I won't have an opinion until it does run.

P.S.S. I did a test day session once when I was the ONLY car out there. It was GREAT!

O.K. maybe not a 1 car race.

[FV90]

Take it from someone who actually is part of a group that puts on races - if a group has 5 cars then yes it will be safer but that group does little to support the biggest concern - BOTTOM LINE. Barber is one of the most expensive tracks to rent in SEDIV and had lost 20K the year before. You don't put on events for very long without making money. Money losers such as Test Day and Saturday night meal were removed so how do you get entrants? You try something different we placed Time Trials into the schedule to give RR's a chance to practice and the TTers a new place to run - the response was very encouraging with 78ish. Basically the TTers helped the bottom line where Enduro races and such had not done much to help AS WELL as the lower power wings/things. You cannot and will not have events with 2 or 3 show up for one class and run with a couple other cars, sorry if you feel that we have left you out but looking over the bottom line of other races in SEDIV you have apprently have forgotten to at least show up at a race to make a difference, and I am just as much to blame as anyone making only a few races per year.
Anytime someone would like to step up and make things better for low hp attendance needs to get up off the couch and make things so we can have our own race groups - but keep in mind reality cause at the end of the day someone needs to pay the bill not pixie dust on the internet.

[Garry Sharp]

OK. So the more run groups you have, the more the track charges you? I didn't know that. I thought as long as you started and finished within the alotted time, it wouldn't matter how many groups there were.

Or to put another way, the earlier in the day the races end, the less the costs are to the Region?

[FV90]

Missing the point Gary - entries make money - no entries no money - can't pay rent with no money. Low Hp Formula cars no entries no money no rent no event. Lack of entries whatever, the President, the economy, rain, cold, or whatever means no money. Same argument from the low power Prod cars - they don't show up then they get mad since they are combined with another low entry group. Basically we make room for track time with people who actually work to show up. Sorry that escapes you.
We pay for the day 8am to 5pm if your group has say 3 cars for Practice, qualifing, and a race it doesn't make sense to cater just to that group that is paying the same price as everyone else. Now if we could say increase your entry fee due to the lack of entries to keep your groups track time by themselves.
It iwll be good to see you work a race at Road Atlanta for the ARRC and work with the people to set-up something to make everybody happy - good luck with that,

[Peter Olivola]

Unfortunately, FV90 hasn't explained the problem with small race groups in a way that makes the point. Let me give it a try.

Large race groups produce more on track activity and keep the corner workers, starters, T&S, grid, ES, i.e., the volunteer staff, interested in what's going on. I'm not talking about incidents. I'm talking about racing. That's why they're at the track. They're fans of racing. They want to see interesting races.

A five car run group induces boredom and we have heard on numerous occasions when we don't, that small run groups should be combined. It can be a somewhat confrontational exchange. There have been threats and assertions that the worker shortages being experienced are at least partly a result of small, boring, run groups. What happens when workers are bored on top of being short-handed? They don't react as quickly. They don't see incidents (two workers per station isn't going to get consistent reports on PUY's and contact incidents) so to turn your point around, there is also a safety concern with too small a race group.

OK. So the more run groups you have, the more the track charges you? I didn't know that. I thought as long as you started and finished within the alotted time, it wouldn't matter how many groups there were.

Or to put another way, the earlier in the day the races end, the less the costs are to the Region?

[Amon]

But is also comes back to the issue of "Race Groupings"! If a region places FA/FC
with FF or FV's for a given race weekend, you're probably going to get the expected
low turnout for those slower classes. The MARRS series appears to be a perfect example, and although I've never raced at Summit Point, I do remember the large
FV turnout there for many years, and always wondered what happened to them?
After Jim Oswalds explanation, I now know why they've disappeared from that track!

It all comes down to those who set the groupings and their perception of each class
within the groups. If they don't want you, such as the MARRS Series, you won't get
the favorability other classes will receive etc.....


Mark

92' Protoform P-1 /005

[Garry Sharp]

I'll give up and stop here. I did race for 3 years as the only car in my class in the SEDIV, so you really can't say I didn't "take one for the small bore Formula team" but at $1,000 a weekend it's hard to justify dreading going out there because of poor race groupings.

[FV90]

Gary - I raced my FV at Nashville and Barber and I work races at Road Atlanta and I have watched the entries for the small bore slowing ebb away.
Not because they were placed with higher hp wings and things.
I have watched since 2008 the lack of entries because the lack of money for the entrants to spend - that simple.
Tracks have no sympathy to the how much you can spend they will go ahead and raise the rent every year. I know 3 FV drivers who simply do not have the money to race anymore and fix their cars. You cannot expect any racing region to save a place holder year after year for no shows.
I would love to be in an area of 15 to 20 FV's to have my own race with but for now there is not enough in Atlanta not enough in the Carolinas and not enough in Alabama. And the numbers appear to be getting lower in what once was large numbers areas elsewhere in SEDIV.
It isn't just a product of race organizers it is a product of the lack of entrants that has been getting worse for some time - not because of "poor" race groups but because they are forced into it due to your "poor" entries.