Race groupings

[gbmetcalf]

I was just watching the MARRS #5 on race monitor and saw Group #4.
I would hate to be in this group of cars in a vee!

Group 4: ASR, CF, CFC, CSR, DSR, FA, FB,
FC, FE, FF, FM, FS,FST, FV, F5, F6, S2

This is a disaster waiting to happen.

JMHO
G.

[Bill Bonow]

G. Brian,

This is quickly becoming the norm. When car counts are low, this is the result. It sucks. The only solution at this point is to show up with lots of cars in a given class. We have attempted that, but we just got blamed for the resulting crashes for bringing too many cars. The problem is that once this grouping becomes the standard. who will want to go. A win-win will be difficult to find.

[racerdad2]

DANG ! Perhaps West Coast mirrors ( found on semis ) should be mandated ? Personally, I wouldn't want to be in any of those... Unless we were drag racing !

[Keith Carter]

Anyone else want to switch to SRF?

[Fv42]

I never really complained about racing with SRF, until the second car in a two car draft didn't see me until he hit me (my throttle cable had broken and I missed the safety zone). The video shows the first car going around me on DL and all hell breaking loose right after that.

I do NOT like the 80 mph closing speed of FA, but there are usually only one or two are in a pack, not the case with SRF, and the FA drivers seem to be a little more "polite." I am slow and consistent enough that the "real wings and things" can usually judge a passing zone.

IF we were to have more FVs, FFs, F500s and maybe CFCs we could ask for our own group, but there were only a total of 11 wings and things and Vees at Sebring June 1 and 2. And, I didn't even get out for Sunday AM race due to a broken rear suspension. Fixed it and made the grid for Sunday PM. But, there were only 8 of us racing in the dry, sorta wet, deluge. I came in 2nd and they let the next to last Vee get a first place trophy (there were only 2 of us).

John

[Keith Carter]

I meant selling the car and buying a SRF to race in that pack. Pretty much guaranteed your own race group every time. With the new engine package it looks pretty appealing to me.

[racerdad2]

I watched the new SRF run at COTA. Good looking, good handling, very fast & sounds good, too. With 85 cars on the track, they seemed to play well together. A little rubbin' & bumpin', looked like they all had a great time Very tempting class !

[maloneyjack]

Notice no FV has been to a MARRS event this year. One was entered for this weekend but must have thought better of it.

[Bill Bonow]

Yep, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[gbmetcalf]

In my first driver school I was following and passing a very nice looking SRF for a couple of laps going into the 90 at WGI I had a break issue and rather than drive right into the rear of the SRF I took an early turn in and hoped he would use his mirrors, which he didn't. He turned right into me as I was passing him. The session ended and in the debrief I was admonished for trying to make that pass. It didn't matter that I had a break pedal that went to the floor. Then after that the father of the SRF driver chewed what was left of my butt for putting a black tire mark on his son's car. After watching the carnage that is SRF racing for years, I'm not a fan of being grouped with the SRFs, But quite honestly I will race with anything as long as I can get on the track again. I'll just make sure I check my mirrors OFTEN.

I never really complained about racing with SRF, until the second car in a two car draft didn't see me until he hit me (my throttle cable had broken and I missed the safety zone). The video shows the first car going around me on DL and all hell breaking loose right after that.

I do NOT like the 80 mph closing speed of FA, but there are usually only one or two are in a pack, not the case with SRF, and the FA drivers seem to be a little more "polite." I am slow and consistent enough that the "real wings and things" can usually judge a passing zone.

IF we were to have more FVs, FFs, F500s and maybe CFCs we could ask for our own group, but there were only a total of 11 wings and things and Vees at Sebring June 1 and 2. And, I didn't even get out for Sunday AM race due to a broken rear suspension. Fixed it and made the grid for Sunday PM. But, there were only 8 of us racing in the dry, sorta wet, deluge. I came in 2nd and they let the next to last Vee get a first place trophy (there were only 2 of us).

John

[Garry Sharp]

OK I can't wait any longer to speak my piece. This situation is everything that is wrong with the SCCA. It's like it's being run by 6th graders. The leadership like to write these neat little articles about how they are working to improve the experience of the membership and attract new members etc. Bullsh*t! Allowing the Race organizers to group FA and FV and everything in between together is not "fun" or "safe"- two of the buzzwords I usually hear at a race weekend. Everybody knows if 6 cars per class showed up,( what the SCCA is TRYING to achieve), there would be twice the Run Groups we have been seeing lately. That PROVES there is enough time in the day to do it correctly. IT SHOULDN'T MATTER how many cars show up! Run groups should be MANDATED in the GCR according to Type and speed differential. I would NEVER enter a race that had a run group like the one listed above. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who would group ASR,FC,CFC,CSR,DSR,FA,FB.FC,FE,FF,FM,FS,FST,FV,F5, F6,S2, is willing to get somebody hurt so they can go home early.

Garry Sharp

[racerdad2]

Formula Vees played such a key role in building participation back in the day, IMHO, they deserve to run by themselves, along with Formula First, out of historical respect. Not to mention, Safety.... FA's on track with FV's ? Seriously ?

[Rolling Stone]

Trailer up to OntarioF1200s run on thier own all races 10 or more cars in every race...I know!!!Im at the back looking at them allWe have to practice with FL and F4 and I must admit I dont like it,speed difference means MIRROR TIME get the WINDEX out!!!

[Rolling Stone]

And of course the well known FV...F1200 phrases "God!where did he come from"!! and "That was close" and "Who the hell hell does he think he is?" and "If he does that one more time I'll take him out"!!! and "Wish I could afford an F2000 I would drive it better than that!!"and "That Marshall at Corner 5 looks like Elvis"

[Agitator]

I think Garry hit the nail on the head. I'll take it a step further:

I think SCCA has made such an effort to cater to every group imaginable in order to bolster numbers, and in the process has alienated the core of the membership and had the exact adverse effect.

Exactly how many formula classes do we need?? I remember the FF & FV fields of the late 70's early 80's that were HUGE. Now, you have the opportunity to race a myriad of different open wheeled cars, each taking their toll on the other group entries. It's the same in closed wheeled classes - there's not a car made that you can't race at some level in some class. Some would say that's great, but I think it has diluted the SCCA into an alphabet soup of classes; reducing track time, endangering drivers, and confusing the spectators (potential future drivers). I'm not saying you can't evolve as an organization, but it becomes just like politics when you try to cater to every demographic - no one wins in the end. Meanwhile, just watch the spec classes continue to grow. Which is not a negative comment - it's probably the best experience out there at the moment.

I went (as a spectator) to the recent event at Road Atlanta where they staged a Performance Driving Experience, Time Trial, and concurrent Regional/National....What the hell is that?? I've been around SCCA since birth, and I was totally confused. I can't imagine what that looks like to a person interested in getting into the sport....And the result? - a turnout that was absolutely pathetic. I was only there on Saturday, but I'm pretty sure not a single National Vee or F1600 driver showed up - not even the local drivers....at a track that used to host the Runoffs!

....off my soapbox...

James

[Amon]

James:

They're holding a Regional / Restricted National at Nelson Ledges over the 4th of July weekend and only 16 cars total have signed up. They excluded the vee's from participating at the National, even though nearly 20 showed up at the 2012 Memorial Day National. But they did include classes which are in the bottom 20% of all National participation because when you have people in the right places, your voice is heard. The management of the SCCA, both local and national need to return to their senses and start worrying about the groups who have potential to fill the grids, and not those groups in the bottom 1/5 of participation. If they continue in the current direction, then the Regionals and Nationals will be in danger of disappearing with only the Super Tour Nationals surviving.

Mark

[Speed Sport Engineering]

SCCA has had over the years MANY different attempts at reducing classes. Every time the board votes a system into place for removing the weak classes, it gets over turned....

I thought they finally had a fool proof plan with the majors events - they were first pitched to us as an event for the top classes in SCCA. No more then 2 classes per run group. How long did that last? One trial event maybe? They are nothing more now then a national requiring a further tow. And we are back to the same problem.

[Amon]

Mike:

....and additional costs associated with the "Super Tours" because most are three day events. With gas at $4.00 per gallon here in Ohio, it's getting very expensive to tow to tracks that are any length from home. I figured it would cost me $300-$350 towing to the Glen over the 4th of July, and that doesn't include entry fee's, tires, racing fuel and hotel costs.....whew.......and then you have to keep the wife happy!

[FVEE56]

Amon, you know how to keep a wife happy?
We need to talk.
Hughie

[Amon]

Give her the VISA!



Mark

[farrout]

As an AMAC DSR driver, I get to run with the newer DSRs, CSRs and FAs all the time. They have a 8-10 second lap differential and the FAs have a large top speed advantage. Yes it is difficult to see them coming. Blue flags are tremendously important. Driver awareness is equally important.

Why combine all the formula cars and SRs? Mostly because the car counts do not justify having 6-8 cars in a race group which is what we are seeing. Not everyone is happy with that. It is not the perfect solution.

As a Race Chair and Region Treasurer, we are having troubles making races a financial success (meaning do not lose money). Car counts are down over the last few years. That is why we are bringing Track Trials and PDX into the weekend road races. We are replacing the ECR (9 drivers) with a Track Trials (easily 40 drivers) at Barber this year.

[budawe]

The real problem of class grouping is that one concept does not fit every region around the county. Having a centralized grouping rule would be a disaster. No one likes to run with other classes; but it's a reality in SCCA and every other organization around the country. Some groups exclude certain types of cars, like open wheel, to simplify the process, but SCCA cannot or should not do that. The class consolidation process is underway and several classes will be gone or consolidated by 2014. It's easy to say get rid of such a such class unless it's the class that you have built a car and are currently running in. There are regional only classes that address local situations as well and that should be an option for the regions and competitors to explore. Don't forget, Formula First is a regional only class with an opportunity to grow and prosper.

The original Majors plan was changed because some areas could not draw enough cars with the 10 class concept to make the weekends viable. We've modified the Majors program to address the local needs and situations.

In 2014, there will be two distinct paths to the Runoffs. One will be the Majors program and the other will be a divisional program. Nationals, Rationals and regionals will be converted into Majors and non-majors. Next year, competitors will be able to choose how and where to run and still be able to compete at the runoffs if they wish. There will be qualification guidelines for those driving in the existing national classes and you'll still have to earn your way to the Runoffs but everyone will be able to choose what fits their needs and budget. Keep your eyes on Fastrack during the next couple of months for details on 2014.

[FV90]

As an RE for a SEDIV region that tries to put on RR events I have been both an admin and a driver and the problem in SEDIV is basically the FV/FF/CF/F500 open wheel not even showing up at the events that made the problem worse. We have had to combine because YOU DO NOT SHOW UP. One race I was in had 3 FVs, 1 FF, and a FST and then Sunday had like 4 cars for a race group. Whatever excuse of the week is I guess just means you really don't want to put in the effort to make it grow but for sure you'll be complaining on the forum. I guess some are better at posting comments on a forum than actually showing up.

[Keith Carter]

Why do they have to be combined depending on the number of cars that show if they are a national class? Can't the groups be designed for class/speed/type of cars to improve safety and racer appeal? Lumping all formula cars into a wings and things group is a good way to keep the overall car counts low because people aren't willing to sacrifice their own race weekend to mix it up with a different class in the same race group.

[Garry Sharp]

FV 90,

You said you HAD to combine groups because turnout was low.
Explain to why you HAD to combine groups.

[Tiago Santos]

I'm unrelated to FV90 or to organizing race weekends, but here's my take on it. The guys that spend 2 or 3 days on their feet waving flags to keep us safe are volunteers, and part of the deal is, in exchange for their valuable time and experience, without which we couldn't race, we have to keep them somewhat entertained. Believe it or not, they're there because they love WATCHING and participating in racing, not bird watching.

Each track session also costs time and money.. It makes no sense to keep ambulances and crew on standby for 3 or 4 cars to be driving around the track by themselves.

That's my understanding of it, and I could be wrong, but as much as combined groups suck (I know, we only have one open wheel/sports racer group here in BC) it won't change unless people show up. People aren't necessarily idiots, if you feel unsafe, make arrangements to get the entire group together in a room or paddock spot and talk it out. Agree on how you'll handle different situations, make friends and "conspire" to get the numbers back up, then bitch about the combined groups when the numbers are there to justify it!

[ccoffin]

Agree on how you'll handle different situations, make friends and "conspire" to get the numbers back up, then bitch about the combined groups when the numbers are there to justify it!

Amen

[FV90]

As an FV driver I have contacted FV drivers via email to run Nashville SS RR's. We started out alright with a combo of the lower speed formula cars. The more years the less FV/FF/CF/FST never a F5. We had to combine to have a larger than single digit race group. I could understand for NSS because of the transition but the turnouts at other tracks were equally bad. Wow a racegroup of 4 or 5? So the faster open wheel and SR's were included and that got the turnout to a dozen or so. I think some of you need to actually conduct a race and see how bad the turnout is in SEDIV for any SARRC regional open wheel.

[Fv42]

In CFR the "best" grouped weekend was a single SARRC/regional. The single SARRC race was segregated into fast wings and slow things. Everything else was an "all skate," practice, qualifying and regional race. Worked out pretty good, but didn't happen again. We went back to FAs and FVs on track at the same time, kinda fun on Sebring short track!. Then because the wings wanted an extra practice session we got 2 races while every other class got 3 races (we have enough sunlight to do three races). Looking forward to see what "surprises" Daytona will bring in August.

[maxking39]

Vee Drivers, NJMP is running races with a group with just Fords, 500s, and Vees. This is all year and isn't that far away.

[farrout]

Keith - There is only so much track time in a day and certainly not enough to give each class their own separate race. Hence the race grouping.

We are bringing TT into our double Regional and have to find adequate track time for them. Why let TT run? Simply put, finances. When we ran an ECR, there were 9 drivers and a TT will bring 40-45 drivers. That is the difference between a huge financial loss and breaking even. There are not enough Regional road racers entering to just do the weekend for them alone. We have to bring in other income. The choice is simple - if we cannot make the race work financially, then the race will not be held.

Another plus for the TT is that it gives the road racers the opportunity for additional practice time at a cost that is less than the Friday Practice Day. It also saves them the extra day of travel (food, lodging) expenses and time off work. It seems to be a win/win.

The choices between groupings, getting enough drivers, etc is a complex situation. If more drivers show up, then we can talk about different groupings.

A single Regional format was mentioned. Here in the South East, the norm is double Regionals/Nationals. Gives a driver more points for his travel costs and they historically have favored the double race weekend. But when you do the track time math, the Time On Track is about the same either way.

Some may say that we have too many races on the schedule. The drivers have more choices and frequently choose the races where the towing costs are less.

Our small Region is trying to make Barber Motorsports Park a successful event. It has lost money for the past 3 years and the major supporting Region has dropped out. We think we have a successful concept and can make ti successful. WIll it work? The racers will vote with their attendance.

[Keith Carter]

I understand that each class can't get their own race, but lumping all into a "Wings and Things" race group when there WERE groups that were more split up provisioned for previous weekends. Time shouldn't be a factor no matter how many cars show up in that case. I don't understand why consolidation is the answer when it will only kill future potential turnout.

[cooleyjb]

I understand that each class can't get their own race, but lumping all into a "Wings and Things" race group when there WERE groups that were more split up provisioned for previous weekends. Time shouldn't be a factor no matter how many cars show up in that case. I don't understand why consolidation is the answer when it will only kill future potential turnout.

Qualify the reason to me why a group of 13 total wings and things shouldn't be combined with the ITA, ITS, ITR, SSB, GT2 etc. style group has 53 cars. They earned the right to have two 25 car groups instead of one group of FV, F500 and FF with four cars.

Bring big numbers and you'll get better groupings. It's just Fair.

[Marshall Mauney]

Our small Region is trying to make Barber Motorsports Park a successful event.

Speaking only for myself:

I'm a CenDiv driver, but my office is in Leeds, AL (yeah, it's a brutal commute from Milwaukee). I would love to run at Barber, but I'm not going to drag the car down for a non-points event. If the Barber event were a National or Major, I would be far more likely to either bring my car down for the weekend or find an arrive'n'drive to collect some points.

I may be the only person in this exact situation, but I'd bet that there are a bunch of Atlanta/Florida guys who would make the tow for a National/Major, but not for a regional.

[farrout]

We had a Rational at Barber last year and the car counts were lousy. The only weekend we currently have at Barber is Labor Day. I have had a number of National drivers tell me that they would love to drive Barber but not the week before they have to get ready for the Run Offs. I do not think that a National on Labor Day will work (at least it did not before).

[derminator]

I just ran the F1200 race at Mosport (CTMP) and we had a 21 car field to start the weekend. We had 3 20 minute races a practice and qualifying. The cost to tow was $342.00. from near Gettysburg. The racing was great 1.7 cover the front 8 cars in tow of the races. At $360 for the set of tires and rims were new at $340 for set basically the cost of a set of slicks i can run for 3 season that's 6 race weekends each year. That more then offset's my travel and I get to race with only F1200's. We have been talking about setting up a four race series in New York and Ontario. But if you are in the Ohio, New York, PA, Vermont, NJ area you should really look at this Ontario series. I ran the Pro Vee series in the 90's and this is just as good and the tires really are easy to drive on . Also the dollar is a little stronger now then the Canadian dollar.

[derminator]

Sorry Michigan forgot to include you.

[Garry Sharp]

So what we have here is one group of people that says Run Groups should be done correctly even if there is only 5 cars in a race, and another group of people that says, why have a race with only 5 cars in it.

It seems the drivers are more in the first group and the officials are more in the second group.

[racerdad2]

Perhaps setting the starting grid for the race based on Qualifying would help in the whole Wings & Things. There are such large disparities in each group.... We've got FE's faster than some FA's, etc. At RA the fast cars in all the groups over-ran the slower cars, no matter the 'group', especially after FCY. I realize we want to race in our own class. However, starting the race based on qualifying, regardless of class, may make for safer racing... Just thinking out loud...

[Marshall Mauney]

I have had a number of National drivers tell me that they would love to drive Barber but not the week before they have to get ready for the Run Offs.

Good point - I hadn't made that connection. Why is that the only date available? Is there no other group that would want to trade for Labor Day weekend?

So what we have here is one group of people that says Run Groups should be done correctly even if there is only 5 cars in a race, and another group of people that says, why have a race with only 5 cars in it.

It seems the drivers are more in the first group and the officials are more in the second group.

This is because the drivers are the ones who have to repair the cars (or deal with medical consequences) when the incidents occur between cars of massively different speeds.

Perhaps setting the starting grid for the race based on Qualifying would help in the whole Wings & Things. There are such large disparities in each group.... We've got FE's faster than some FA's, etc. At RA the fast cars in all the groups over-ran the slower cars, no matter the 'group', especially after FCY. I realize we want to race in our own class. However, starting the race based on qualifying, regardless of class, may make for safer racing... Just thinking out loud...

The problem at the Sprints was not the grid, it was the fact that we had a FCY on the first lap. Split starts make things better by getting classes of similar speeds separated, so that we don't have incidents like the one that's been under heated discussion in the FE & FM forums.

Gridding multi-class groups solely by lap times creates a real problem, because the slower driver in a faster car will blow by the leaders in the slower classes on the start (higher horsepower), then screw up their race in the first few corners (he's generally slower because he's not cornering as fast).