Tracking a FST Conversion

[rgu]

Chuck



Now that you are almost done with your car would it be worth extending the chassis if you could stuff a dry sump tank in any other way. It’s much harder to do on cars like yours because you also need to modify the trailing arms.



Very interested in your views on this matter. And I’m totally pleased you will try to make our MO date. It’s a great track.

[csingletary01]

Robert, Extending chassis was about 8 to 10 hours work. If there had been another solution to install a dry sump tank that would have been an option. Extending the chassis had some other benefits that after completing made it worth it. On predators the exhaust had to be run under car, JR at Roxanne could just not find a route this way that could be made to fit and maintain the lengths we wanted in our system. An I personally do not like the exhaust system under due to it being very venerable. Once I extended chassis and swing arms it opened up me moving pick up points for the suspension to move forward 2" to solve the fitting of a standard gear drive starter. Overall I think the extension has made this a much better car and would do again. I am fortunate to have a lot of equipment left over from my racing shop in Alaska now in my home garage, i.e. a chassis jig, benders, notchers, lathe, milling machine, welding equipment etc. This could easily be done in a home garage with hand tools and a welder though.

[csingletary01]

I worked on the lathe today and completed front shock lower mounts. Started assembly of rear axles after rear disc brake carrier work and discovered I have long axles and short tubes. One little dilemma after another.

[rgu]

Good looking front end.

The rear tires are real wide, therefore it goes without saying that you don't want them sticking out too far. Therefore you want short tubes/short axles. You are halfway there.

[csingletary01]

Thanks Robert,

In all my years with Vees and other VW projects I must have been lucky to never have ran across before. I was going to install axles Sunday so I could set on ground. All of the fab I had to I just had tubes bolted up. Minor bump in the road. Here are a couple of photos for Axle mismatch.

[Bill Bonow]

Chuck,

Those look to be correct. Are you sure the axle paddles are correct into the spyder gears? Could have a plate that fell behind the axle making the length seem longer. The longer axles are WAY longer

[csingletary01]

Bill let me pull apart and check. Hopes that's it as I want to get car on ground

[Bill Bonow]

Chuck,

found and copied this simple description off the internet:

What rear axle is what? Now with this post Short Spline – End casting measures out to be 3 1/2? and the spline length is 2? (our axle OA measures 26 11/16")

Normally 66-67 is Long Axle Short Spline - End casting measures out to be 4 3/4? and the spline length is 2?

Normally 68 is Long Axle Long Spline - End casting measures out to be 4 3/4? and the spline length is 2 3/4?

[csingletary01]

Bill,

I removed the axle out and you were right one of the plates had slipped. It appears every thing will fit. Thanks always with the help

[csingletary01]

Bill B

Here are some mock up photos, it is based on Citation Tank Drawing you sent. I sent you a PM with some contact information

Chuck

[csingletary01]

Just about everything is fitted, cutout, etc. Bill B is fabricating Dry Sump Tank. Will pick up Fires system this week and mount. We started doing layup today for some side panels for the body. Should be able to totally disassemble car by weekend, and my sponsor CoatPro Powder Coating will coat the frame, trailing arms, steering etc. should only take them 2 to 3 days. We will then start final assembly. Mid-Ohio looks like race debut.

[csingletary01]

I have almost finished my FV to FST conversion. I need to fabricate the Front Attenuator. Would some of you post some photos of what you did to meet the rules. It would sure speed up my finishing if I did not have to reinvent the wheel.

[sracing]

If you mean the "crush box", I BELEIVE that rule was eliminated in FST. If not it isn't much. Just a pop riveted aluminum assembly built to the size/specs that are in the rules (if so). I don't have a picture of ours right now, but I bet Bill does. I will post one here tomorrow if he doesn't.

[Bill Bonow]

Chuck,

We don't need one per GCR. Cars using the VW H beam don't need a crush structure.

From the GCR:

G. Front Impact Attenuation 2. Formula Vee and other formula cars using the VW sedan H-beam front suspension must satisfy the requirements of section 9.1.1.C.3.A.10 or use any of the structures listed in 9.4.5.G.1.

To go a tick further, here is GCR 9.1.1.C.3.A.10.

No structure, item, or component (including the battery) other than bodywork, can protrude further forward than ten (10) inches from the front of the lower axle beam tube. Any item protruding further than eight (8) inches must include a vertical safety plate. This plate must be constructed of no less than .060” 6061-T-6 aluminum or no less than 16 gauge steel. The plate shall have a minimum frontal surface area of 42 square inches, and shall have a height of not less than four (4) inches and a width of not less than six (6) inches. The plate may have no more than ½ inch curvature or deflection from the vertical plane, and shall be attached to the chassis (frame) at all four corners. The lower braces shall not exceed a 15-degree upward angle when measured from the horizontal plane of the lower frame tubes.
If a vented lead acid battery is mounted in front of the axle beam, it shall be encased in a marine-type container.
It is recommended that the front area of the nose be filled with foam to aid in impact absorption.

[csingletary01]

Good not having to fab a crash box saves some time. I completed a lot of items this weekend. Have the side panels to the cockpit to finish and tear down and frame coating. When engine is out I have to grind some more flywheel clearance. Will post some current photos later

[csingletary01]

Almost finished with all body work except for cockpit sides, should finish those by Friday. everything has been mounted or fitted for final assembly except Dry Sump Tank.

[csingletary01]

I have received Homologation, the Oil Tank from Bill B. The car is almost assembled, should start up over weekend. I will enter for Gateway tomorrow. Here are some updates from this morning. Even the brakes are bleed.

[csingletary01]

Just need to complete wiring Monday and we are ready to start. Gateway next weekend

[rave motorsports]

I'm really glad everything is a go for St Louis. We are unloading this morning so we can prep for it. It sounds like Chuck Udall is going to drive the Jacer so we know there will be at least 3 if us. It sounds like there will be a chance we get headed there earlier then I thought so we might be there as early as 5:00 pm. First one there Reece some paddock space all together.

[csingletary01]

We completed wiring tonight, hit the starter and the Mutant Mark 2 was running, do a little looming of the wiring, complete the quick Krylon Satin Back and here we come Gateway. Will up date some photos tomorrow.

[rave motorsports]

Don't make it too fast! I at least wanna keep up the first couple of laps.

[sracing]

Hopefully they will have the track transponders working with the AMB wifi. Then I can "watch" from my hospital bed.

[rgu]

Here's wishing you our best at the hospital. I know its not really a totally simple procedure so be a good patient and put down the cell phone if the infection control nurse gets upset.

That said you can also "watch" George Podgorski run three races at NJMP this weekend.

[sracing]

Thanks. Speaking of... My new HTC One doesn't have the ap on it yet. What is the name of it, so I can download it. ?

Jim

[rgu]

Race monitor

[csingletary01]

Get well soon Jim as we need you back among us new guys. I have a little more paint work to finish tomorrow and hope to load up in the evening. I think having three FST's at our first MidDiv race is just the start of FST in this area.

On the tech side where should I start on Camber on the front and rear. I have the rear set at -5 and the droop at -2.5. On my Vintage Vee I run no toe in in the rear and about 1/16 in front. These having wider wheels and tires I am kind of at a loss.

[csingletary01]

Hi Bill,

I don't know how fast it will be as it has not even been through the neighborhood yet as it was raining today. I hope to be able to keep it running all weekend to try and learn the car. Does anyone know if a Hoosier vendor will be at Gateway. I am hoping it stays dry, but would like to get a set of rains if Hoosier is there.

[rgu]

Chuck

I know nothing about your car or Gateway but 5 degrees negative is way too much for a FST. More like 3.5 for an initial starting point. I would refer to Bill Bonow's initial setup in the conversion manual at www.formula-first.org. You probably would end up with these but they are a good starting point.

[Bill Bonow]

Chuck,

RGU is correct. FV chassis settings will make the car demonic. Hoosier told us to stand the tires upright for best performance and they were correct. Use the chassis settings in the conversion guide as RGU pointed out. It will get you to a good baseline starting point that you can adjust from.

[csingletary01]

I will set up by guideline

[rave motorsports]

We used Bill Bonows numbers on the Evolution and it handled fantastic. I was running times consistent with the Club Fords and slower Formula Fords and it wasn't the driver LOL ( me). It's my understanding that Hoosier will be there that's what I read on the St Louis website. Chuck Udell told me on the phone yesterday the total car count is up to 60 now with 13 cars in our run group. Those aren't bad numbers for a Mid-Div Regional. If you get there first Chuck try to save us a spot in the paddock big enough for the toter and trailer. It can be a beast to park sometimes!

[csingletary01]

I went on a drive around my neighborhood and the brakes, clutch, tranny and steering work. Engine won't idle, by that is minor. Finish paint and decals and off to Gateway in the morning. Thanks to all that have helped me through this conversion

[sracing]

For a 4th opinion: Yep. Stand it up. 1 to 1.5 deg neg camber is fine. Much more than that and you will be wasting most of the rear tire patch. Droop limit it to about 0 deg.

Regarding idle: If you can't get it to idle via the adjustment instructions on the FST web site, do the following:

There is a small brass idle air jet just above and to the left of the throttle pump on the carb. (The large one) Turn it out about 1/4 to 3/4 turn. If it idles ok there, you may have to slightly enlarge the tiny hole in the jet and then tighten again. (You can't just leave it loose, you have to re-drill and tighten again. They often don't meter idle a/f well with that jet and cam. Before you drill, make sure that you have no vacuum leaks and you have attempted the procedure on the FST web site. If you call me here at the shop I can explain it better. But do it before 5 PM today.

Jim
859-252-2496

[Bill Bonow]

Engine won't idle, by that is minor.

Chuck,

Some carbs don't like to idle, but check for vacuum leaks where the intake manifold end casting attach to the head. With a fussy carb, it will idle a little and die. With a vacuum leak, it will die instantly.

Glad to hear the basics are all functioning. Good luck at St.Louis and remember to take loads of pics at the track. Everyone loves the pics.

[Garry Sharp]

Yep. Stand it up. 1 to 1.5 deg neg camber is fine.

Jim,

Do you mean 1.5 deg.TOTAL or per side? (3 deg. total)

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

Total, not per side

[csingletary01]

Well here it is completed. The paint is not the best just ran our of time to do final bodywork, so thankfully the put Satin Black in Spray Cans. I will update after Gateway

[Bill Bonow]

Chuck,

Congrats on your project milestone and wishing a fun maiden voyage this weekend at St.Louis.

Just a couple stats that should be laid out there for all to see.

From your first post, (20) weekends to complete your FV to FST conversion. Coupled with 3770 views of this thread (so far) should prove that these threads are of solid interest to Apexspeed viewership.

Thanks for posting your project and hope to see more of these projects that help get garage queens racing once again.

[Jim Nash]

Congratulations Chuck. The car looks good. Hopefully you'll have a trouble free weekend.

Jim

[rgu]

Great work Chuck. Good luck to you in the first outing of your brand new car. And the same to Bill Grey and Chuck Udell. Take plenty of pictures guys.