Brake Pads

[openwheeler37]

After watching some videos of other cars at Blackhawk Farms this weekend I realized i'm braking really early compared to them. I really don't think I can brake any later and still make the turn(s). I'm wondering if I should try a different brake pad compound. What is everyone using for pad compounds. I'm using willwood calipers front and rear, don't know the exact pad compound off the top of my head.

[crowe motorsports]

I have always been loyal to Performance Friction. I used the 01 pads with great success in DSR and F1000. The DSR had Wilwood calipers. Go to their site and read about there pads and how they are designed regarding brake coefficient. They make several compounds.

[924RACR]

Consider also, in addition to overall friction and heat levels, you may be fighting with a lack of initial bite - which will change for not only different pads but also different manufacturers. In other words, how long is the delay between applying the pedal and building peak brake torque? Some can be noticeably longer than others... which ends up backing up your brake markers.

You will definitely want to do your best to identify what's currently on the car...

[romoman]

This is sort of a loaded question. Not knowing you or your car, is everything else up to snuff? Is the setup (corner balance, alignment, AERO) all right? Is braking the only spot your having trouble? Are your entry and mid corner speeds equal with everyone else? Is your braking technique correct? While brake pads can make a huge difference, the driver is usually the bigger difference.

[openwheeler37]

This is sort of a loaded question. Not knowing you or your car, is everything else up to snuff? Is the setup (corner balance, alignment, AERO) all right? Is braking the only spot your having trouble? Are your entry and mid corner speeds equal with everyone else? Is your braking technique correct? While brake pads can make a huge difference, the driver is usually the bigger difference.

You bring up some great points and I wish I could answer them all. As for me and my car, I have a number of years of racing experience (asphalt and dirt oval as well as road) but I know there is a lot for me to learn yet. My car is an older Speads chassis (2002-2003 I believe). As far as the alignment and corner balance we use the setup specs given to us by the previous owner.

[S Lathrop]

You bring up some great points and I wish I could answer them all. As for me and my car, I have a number of years of racing experience (asphalt and dirt oval as well as road) but I know there is a lot for me to learn yet. My car is an older Speads chassis (2002-2003 I believe). As far as the alignment and corner balance we use the setup specs given to us by the previous owner.

What kind of brake calipers?

If you try to brake deeper what happens?

If you apply more pressure on the brakes. what happens?

Have you checked to see if the pads or rotors are glazed over? This is a common problem with some pads. It was very common when people switch between brake pad materials. The simple solution here is to sand both the rotors and the pads. Glazing can happen over time if you don't get the pads up to operating temperature.

Performance Friction pads can be an issue if they are oversized for the application. Try something like Hawk. I have found that Hawk pads are a good place for some drivers to start when they try to come to grips with a new car.

I don't know about what your car has, but many FBs have oversized brakes and that is a problem. Performance Friction has a caliper/pad combination that was developed for the FB/FC/FF type chassis.

[RobLav]

Recommend follow Steve's comments...

I'll add:
- Don't forget that you need to apply more brake pressure at initial application then back off the brake pressure as the car slows. This is particularly true in cars with downforce.
- I had those Wilwoods on my car at initial build and thought they were good at the time. After driving with the PFC calipers/rotors, now I know better.
- The pads are fairly large on the Wilwoods, so you don't really want a very hard compound. You won't have much modulation ability. As Steve said, try Hawk - probably start with Blue.

[glenn cooper]

and it begins w/ an "S"...

I ran an older Speads DSR in '06, so not sure the problems I encountered w/ braking on that chassis would cross over, but...

The brake rotors were attached to hats that were welded up. It was all quite cobby and resulted in massive runout, like .060, which would push the pads back after traveling about 20 feet, resulting in a pedal that constantly needed to be pumped.

I even disassembled the hats/hubs, whatever and chucked them up in a lathe in order to try to get the things flat, but like I said, they were welded up from many small parts and it was sorta useless.

Does your car have a long pedal (like that car did)? If you are not sure if it is, basically if you push on the pedal super hard, it should not move more than maybe a half inch or so.

Hope that helps, but as someone mentioned previously - Braking is an art!

[openwheeler37]

What kind of brake calipers?

If you try to brake deeper what happens?

If you apply more pressure on the brakes. what happens?

Have you checked to see if the pads or rotors are glazed over? This is a common problem with some pads. It was very common when people switch between brake pad materials. The simple solution here is to sand both the rotors and the pads. Glazing can happen over time if you don't get the pads up to operating temperature.

Performance Friction pads can be an issue if they are oversized for the application. Try something like Hawk. I have found that Hawk pads are a good place for some drivers to start when they try to come to grips with a new car.

I don't know about what your car has, but many FBs have oversized brakes and that is a problem. Performance Friction has a caliper/pad combination that was developed for the FB/FC/FF type chassis.

The car has Dynolite calipers and from what I can tell the Polymatrix "B" compound in front and BP-20 compound in the rear.

If I try to brake deeper I hardly make the turn

If I apply more pressure it feels like the tires are going to lock up.

I looked at the pads and rotors today and they do appear to be glazed over. What gritt sandpaper should I use to scuff them down?

and it begins w/ an "S"...

I ran an older Speads DSR in '06, so not sure the problems I encountered w/ braking on that chassis would cross over, but...

The brake rotors were attached to hats that were welded up. It was all quite cobby and resulted in massive runout, like .060, which would push the pads back after traveling about 20 feet, resulting in a pedal that constantly needed to be pumped.

I even disassembled the hats/hubs, whatever and chucked them up in a lathe in order to try to get the things flat, but like I said, they were welded up from many small parts and it was sorta useless.

Does your car have a long pedal (like that car did)? If you are not sure if it is, basically if you push on the pedal super hard, it should not move more than maybe a half inch or so.

Hope that helps, but as someone mentioned previously - Braking is an art!

I get the same felling in the pedal - it's like I have to pump the pedal once or twice before it feels right. I thought I had air in the system. Spent an entire Saturday and like $50 in fluid trying to bleed it out, maybe it is just a design flaw.

After contacting wilwood and looking into pad compounds I am going to try a set of the "H" compound pads for the front and keep the BP-20 in the rear.

Can someone please inform me on the correct way to set-in new brake pads?

Thanks again, this site is overflowing with knowledge and i'm still trying to soak it all in.

[924RACR]

Ideal/easy way to clean up the rotors would be hitting them with a scotch-brite type roloc pad on the die grinder...

Best bed-in recommendations will be from the pad manufacturer.

One last thought: are you SURE the wheels will lock with more brake pressure? Have you ever gone out and run a session (on crap tires) and pushed all the way to lock? Sometimes it's further away than expected.

A comparable point, if you have data - what kind of G's are you hitting in decel?

[S Lathrop]

You have to bring the pads up to the correct operating temperature. The manufacturer can give you that information. My guess is that you have relatively large pad area and you are not getting enough temperature. The FB does not need any more brake pad than a good FC. Most cars have been built with way more brake pad than necessary. Larger brakes does not necessarily mean better braking.

I would look into the pad compound you are using at the rear as well. Again it could be that you have two different pads front and rear that have very different operating temperature ranges and you are not getting the rear pads into the game at all.

You also are describing symptoms of pad knock back and flexing calipers. The pumping is required to get the pads up to the rotor. The best solution to pad knock back is to have floating rotors.

Performance Friction has developed the ZR55 caliper and pads just for cars like F!000.

[iamuwere]

If you don't lock up once in a while you aren't braking hard enough. You should work deeper and faster in every test session. Figure out where the limits are. You have to get a lock up here and there to know you are going deep enough and hard enough.

[RobLav]

How will you adjust brake bias if you don't lock up?

Use Hawk Blue!

[Jasonrmbell]

Is there a complete package available from PFC ?

[JakeL]

Jason -

There is a PFC "kit" that will fit on your new Stohr, but it is eye-wateringly expensive. Ask Wayne about it.

I ordered my car with it from the get-go (still painful), and it was worth every penny.

-Jake

[urbanimports02]

we offer a bolt on kit for the Stohr that uses Alcon calipers and custom rotors that use the stock rotor hats etc and it costs a LOT less then the PFC setup and works very well. it uses 2 piston radial mount calipers and solid, non vented, gas slotted rotors for a savings of about 15lbs and gets the brakes into better operating temps. it is a quick and easy bolt on upgrade. check the site and feel free to get in touch.