Cost Per Race

[glenn cooper]

I agree it would be wonderful if tires lasted a half season, but you know as well as I do that the performance from something that hard will never be able to grip to a level that these cars deserve.

Lets use Road Atlanta as an example. The current FB lap time is low 1:20. A FM time is about a 1:25 or so. With the hard tires on FB, they might just end up doing FM times. Everything becomes moot at this point - it's all a big "Why".

The driving experience of these cars is pretty wicked. FB's will NEVER begin to approach that experience w/ rocks mounted to 4 corners.

Chris, you really gotta get that car finished so you can see what all the commotion is about!

[Wren]

I have seen several new FB cars up close. Firman, Stohr, Van Diemen, etc.. Very cool cars.
I know they are fast and they sound great. Just wish I had that
kind of money. They just seem overpriced to me.

I've seen all of those cars and I have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to put one together. I don't understand how you could sell one for $50k and still afford to eat.

Price just the plumbing pieces that go into a car like this. You will be shocked at just how much it costs.

Here's an example: We are in the middle of frame up-ing a car for the runoffs. Wiring an FB from scratch with data and geartronics takes ~100 hours and $500 worth of supplies. For someone trying to deliver a new car, they need to get paid for that labor.

As far as greed goes. If 6K for a "stock" vw beetle engine isn't
greedy than I guess I am wrong.

I've owned one of those $6k vw engines. I never thought the engine builder was greedy. It takes a certain amount of parts and labor to finish one to an acceptable level. Go and price having someone with a bobcat do some landscaping for you. That "greedy" engine builder is probably making less per hour than the guy with an F250 and a bobcat. The engine builder likely has a lot more knowledge and a massive investment in equipment to build those engines.

Please don't take my post too seriously. Have fun with what you're doing
and be safe. Thanks.

I'm not taking it too seriously, but I would encourage you to understand what goes into building these cars. There are hundreds of parts that have to be fabricated or purchased and thousands of hours of work.

As for the tire thing, it hasn't changed since the last time it was discussed here:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49611

There is still not some magical hard tire that is going to last forever and save everyone a fortune. Spec a ridiculously hard tire and people will show up with a setup on their car that destroys the tires to get heat in them and they are still faster when they are new. The only thing that happens is people get to go spend thousands and thousands of dollars rebuilding their cars to run on crappy tires. Nothing else changes.

[racerdad2]

Well said, Glenn. FB IS about going fast. I believe that's the whole point of FB. That's the appeal. Even on my old Reynard, hard tires are pointless unless I just want to go run laps & have fun slippin' & slidin' In that case, I may as well take the wings off... I, personally, do favor a spec tire, preferably Not a hard one, just so everyone 'feels' like they're on even ground. Hoping to competently drive an FB one day. Very nice cars :thumbup:

[Nicholas Belling]

Well said wren !!

[racerdad2]

Wren. Thank you for the clarity. The cost of the cars & engines is easy to understand. Now, I understand the tire situation.... :thumbup:

[Christopher Crowe]

The driving experience of these cars is pretty wicked. FB's will NEVER begin to approach that experience w/ rocks mounted to 4 corners.

The desire for really high performance, I kinda understand that. But as I recollect, once you were used to the performance of a car in a given (fast) category, it didn't feel that fast. You quickly get used to it. All relative.

Racing against other categories (i.e., don't want performance to fall to that of FM), I'm not sure I get that. Because the taming of an FB on harder tires would never in any way be the same as driving an FM car.

And in terms of that "taming" of a car like an FB on harder rubber... Well, brace yourselves, I would think. Slipping and sliding in a car of this power-to-weight ratio would probably make the damn things nearly as challenging to drive as the cars in the sport's most elite categories. These 1000cc machines would feel like Indy cars! And would only further separate the men from the boys in terms of the skill needed to chauffer them quickly and well.

But most of all just this: Lower Cost equals More Competitors. More Competitors equals Greater Satisfaction in Participating. (Not even to mention more achievement in winning).

This is AMATEUR COMPETITION. I don't think it should never be about ultimate lap times. It should be about the joy of competing and trying to win -- and just for the shear hell of it! I cannot see why making the cars harder to drive and increasing the number of competitors you race against doesn't serve that end completely.

I've done my best to convey my thinking in the area... and now I really will stay off the soapbox. I know this idea has been discussed to death in these forums; and the majority have decided on the issue.

Sincere thanks to all ---

Chris

[Mike Devins]

I remember a couple of years ago, most of the front running F1000 guys were using up an engine almost every weekend. Don't think that's true any more but, I don't think the engines have been as reliable as everyone expected.

Because of slightly different engine rules, D/SR's are a little more reliable then the F1000 rules allow.

I do know of anything in the DSR engine rules that would make their engines last longer except that you can run SS valves. And with the additional HP of the DSR motors they are definitely on a shorter life cycle.

There have been a number of engines that have just plane failed but you will find that most of the failures are related to errors during prep. For example if an oil line comes off, or an oil filter comes loose, or a fuel line fails it is hard to is hard to call that a motor cycle engine failure.

[wannabe]

This year, 6 races, two track days; car prep and maintenance, 1 set of new tires, parts, meals, hotel, travel, driver coaching, tow vehicle maintenance, entry fees, fuel, amortized trailer insurance, tags for vehicles....7600. (I ran the first two races on tires from the ARRC) the tracks were Road Atlanta and Barber...Atlanta 200 miles, Barber 100 miles.

2010 I ran 14 races including the above and Daytona, South Carolina mtspts, Roebling times2, and Nashville at a cost of 16700, which included 3500. worth of repairs.

I am guestimating averaging about 1200. per weekend with 2 sets of tires per year give or take 300. for repairs for FM. Regional only....

[Richard Dziak]

This is AMATEUR COMPETITION. I don't think it should never be about ultimate lap times. It should be about the joy of competing and trying to win -- and just for the shear hell of it! I cannot see why making the cars harder to drive and increasing the number of competitors you race against doesn't serve that end completely. Chris

Totally agree with these comments.....seems if you want to do Regional races you are considered a lesser racer. How about the days to go out and have some real fun, not worrying about 1/hundredth of a second. This were I feel the FB class is losing out.

I realize there will always be the guys that are super competitive, and thats fine, but the class has room for lots of enjoyment by other owner/drivers of these cars who want to go out and just have some fun and really enjoy the cars.

[Daryl DeArman]

I realize there will always be the guys that are super competitive, and thats fine, but the class has room for lots of enjoyment by other owner/drivers of these cars who want to go out and just have some fun and really enjoy the cars.

...and the folks that fall into that later group can do it for a mere fraction of what it cost to run up front. Nothing in the rules preventing folks from participating on the cheap. It's a matter of how close to the front for how little money.

[Peter Olivola]

What part of the seventies? By the mid seventies everyone running at the front in the American Formula Ford Association was using at least one new set a weekend. I got a half season out of a set of tires, not because they could but because I couldn't afford to buy them more often and my results speak for themselves.

Also, there is no magic bullet. There is no race tire that will last half a season and is inexpensive. What you describe is a treaded street tire like what is on you 4-door sedan.

Only this: In the Seventies there were racing tires that lasted half a season -- and on front running cars. Goodyear Blue Streaks and Blue Dots, etc. Firestone and Dunlop made comparable "boots"...

I think Jay Novak may have a point... that the tire companies might not want to make long-lasting tires in that they would obviously sell many fewer of them... But then again, what if grid-sizes were restored to their former levels, during the halcyon days of 40-60 cars coming to race in more than a few categories?

And, I believe, some company would make these tires... some company would step up. If not, why not do what was done in English Formula Ford in the early years? High performance street tires were mandated. And the fields were huge.

There are no magic bullets. Racing was and will forever be... expensive. But in the tire-area, folks are just tossing dollars to the wind. I find the resistance to changing something in this area... interesting. A money-saving solution could so easily be figured and implemented. Folks racing now could then take that saved money and throw at other things. Folks not racing now... well, they might just throw their hats into the ring.

This built-in cost (of throw-away tires) hurts the sport at the amateur level immensely. I think it hurts the sport far more than people know. Formula One mandates the tires used! Why not us?

Off my soap-box now -- thanks ---

Chris

[Richard Dziak]

What part of the seventies? By the mid seventies everyone running at the front in the American Formula Ford Association was using at least one new set a weekend. I got a half season out of a set of tires, not because they could but because I couldn't afford to buy them more often and my results speak for themselves.

Peter, I am quite sure that you were out having lots of fun, despite the results, and that's the bottom line of SCCA amatuer racing for most people.

In the 10 years of racing within the SCCA, I was always out for the fun of owning and racing the cars, being able to get out on the track in a controled environment by a premier racing organization. I was happy wherever I finished and realized from the beginning that I was never going to become a Mario Andretti, or Helio. Only one person wins a race, and one finishes last. I never really cared were I finished, I just went out to do my best, and that alone was so much fun.

While there are ways to cut costs, even regional races can be an expensive proposition to the owner/driver to attend these races on an annual basis and it does take the disposable income to do this. Many do not realize the costs involved before buying a car.

[Bob Wright]

I Just read this thread for the first time. For clarification- in F2KCS, as opposed to USF2000 (confused yet?), We use Hoosier Tires, they use Cooper (Avon). Our rules state 6 tires maximum for qualifying sessions and both races, their rules are different. A set of tires cost less than $1,000. Some teams use multiple sets in practice and testing, others use race tires from the previous weekend for testing and practice and then put stickers on for qualifying. At the pointy end you really cannot set a car up on clapped out tires.

Since this is about costs- one more comment about cost of cars (and I apologize for referencing a F2000 car instead of a FB, but you get the idea) . Add up the following:

Motor- Zetec new (crate motor $2,400) from Quicksilver with all the externals including ECU ($1,200), oil pump, pan, intake, etc-plus or minus $16,000.
Penske 8760 shocks- $5,200
Mid range data system (Motec CDL) $3,300 (2X for a SDL)
Gearbox- Hewland LD200 new and prepped- $9,500
Wheels (generally need 3 sets)- OZ nine spoke (shamless plug-I'm selling some) new-$1,900/ set= $5,700

That's about $40,000 before you start to build the car and those prices are not really negotiable. Add in Wren's comment above about what it takes to build things like a wiring harness. There are very few production parts on a race car; most are custom fabricated. Can you paint your own car? If not, add a couple of thousand spent at the local body shop. That's part of why these cars cost so much new.

A used '95 VD for $10K or $15K is one of the great bargains out there and still has the potential to be competive on the regional level.

[racerdad2]

Thx for the facts :thumbup: That explains the guys I know who were using new Avons each time out for max data & tuning. $13,600 added to a $2,400 crate engine.... that be racing & now I understand the appeal of motorcycle engines in FB.... Next question. How much add ons to make the cycle engines work in the car ?

[Bob Wright]

further clarification...the add-ons for the crate motor are a one time item, as are the add-ons for a bike engine. The zetec, if given proper care and feeding will last many thousands of race miles. At the end of the day its a very cheap motor for a race car.

The rebuild on the pinto for your Reynard by a known prep shop (Elite, Ivey, Quicksilver, etc.) will be between $2,500 and $4000 depending on condition. You will have to repeat that every 2000 or so miles or it will get really expensive ($6,000+)


Ask what a DSR bike motor costs...

[racerdad2]

Thx Bob ! No wonder the Zetec is so popular :thumbup: the only advantage of my antique Pinto is I can rebuild it myself, as long as I don't throw a rod thru the side of it the newer Zetec VDs are truly nice cars. Definitely on the wish list...

[Bob Wright]

Yep, you can rebuild it yourself...but you will most likely not achieve either the HP or the longevity that one of those builders can (legally). Ask me how I know.

[racerdad2]

I already know how you know This is my first car. Bought it to learn how to drive & set em up. IF I get up to speed, I'll definitely want to move up to a Zetec. This will be my 13 year old's practice car next year. We're still in the points racing our karts. We've got some national talent to contend with. Takes considerable effort to compete. We're not on the road to Indy. We're here for the 'joys' of racing Being a 'field filler' is my first goal.... Thx to all on Apex. I was truly clueless (obviously) when we began this adventure.... still much to learn....