The cheapest practical SR2

[S Lathrop]

There is such a class - Group 5 - but the real question is whether enough would turn up to make an interesting race within a race. S2000s did just that over the last few years in Group 7 - to such an extent that the original 2L Sports Racers from the late-60s/70s have mostly been "frightened away".

But Stan was talking about a modern version that would be SCCA P2 competitive - right Stan?

Not saying that both can't exist - they would be different cars with somewhat similar basic concept.www.virhistory.com/beach

I don't think that using the VW suspension (FV and FST) would make a very good race car with the performance level of S2. But something closer to the vintage sports cars of the time, might be a very fun exercise to take a look at. And deliver a lot of fun for the cost.

I believe everyone has been thinking along the lines of a current S2 type car. I think the limitations of the VW suspension will not deliver the type car everyone wants. That is only my opinion and I can certainly be dead wrong.

[Stan Clayton]

The answer to Steve's question is a qualified yes, as Beach and Crusader VSR bodies are available (or at least still in existence). Other cars, such as the Legrand, Cheetah, Amac, etc., are also available, as are lots of vintage sports racer car bodies. As to whether vintage organizations would accept continuation/replica cars, well...one would have to ask.

Derek is correct, I asked for a spec line within P2, which implies a power level beyond what could be expected in a 'period correct' car, and there would be no requirement to use 'period appearing' bodies...just the spec parts to contain cost.

[Stan Clayton]

I don't think that using the VW suspension (FV and FST) would make a very good race car with the performance level of S2. But something closer to the vintage sports cars of the time, might be a very fun exercise to take a look at. And deliver a lot of fun for the cost.

I believe everyone has been thinking along the lines of a current S2 type car. I think the limitations of the VW suspension will not deliver the type car everyone wants. That is only my opinion and I can certainly be dead wrong.

I don't know, either, Steve, although Eric Flachbart may have some insight.

Anybody know anybody at a major vintage organization we could put the question of replicas to?

[dereklola]

Anybody know anybody at a major vintage organization we could put the question of replicas to?

Stan - I now the Tech Directors and Competition Directors of both SVRA and HSR fairly well - have known them personally for 20-30 years. I'd be happy to "introduce" you to them. I do not know the west coast folks nearly as well. Maybe we should exchange views by email first (mine is in my profile). Or we can continue here if you prefer.

Speaking generally there is no enthusiasm for replica cars. A car must be able to prove its provenance (not necessarily 100%) even if it has been extensively rebuilt or just "heavily maintained". Replacement tubs and frames are sometimes needed and accepted. Etc. The $64k question is when does this become a replica? The US and Canada are somewhat less strict in this regard than, say, the UK and Australia but there are still limits. These limits vary by class, by model, sometimes by entrant and recently with the state of the economy (ie. lack of entries).

My own best guess would be that an expanded number of replicas, even if good copies, would not be welcome. I've seen the occasional Westfield accepted in a class of genuine Lotuses but not an organized approach to expand the grids. On the other hand an organized program to rebuild the same number of cars of the type you are talking about, same number as originally made, even with some degree of limited updating, might be acceptable.

But I'm slightly confused, Stan. If your main thrust is a lower cost sports racer for the SCCA P1 class what is your interest in the vintage spec cars for vintage racing? I'm not against it, I'm just not sure I understand it.

Of course there are organisations other than SCCA, SVRA, HSR etc who run race track events and even races who might jump at the idea if they see a business opportunity. But I don't know them well enough.

Anyhoooo - respond here, drop me an email or let's talk on the phone. I'm happy to help if I can. Derek

[Stan Clayton]

Stan - I now the Tech Directors and Competition Directors of both SVRA and HSR fairly well - have known them personally for 20-30 years. I'd be happy to "introduce" you to them. I do not know the west coast folks nearly as well. Maybe we should exchange views by email first (mine is in my profile). Or we can continue here if you prefer.

Speaking generally there is no enthusiasm for replica cars. A car must be able to prove its provenance (not necessarily 100%) even if it has been extensively rebuilt or just "heavily maintained". Replacement tubs and frames are sometimes needed and accepted. Etc. The $64k question is when does this become a replica? The US and Canada are somewhat less strict in this regard than, say, the UK and Australia but there are still limits. These limits vary by class, by model, sometimes by entrant and recently with the state of the economy (ie. lack of entries).

My own best guess would be that an expanded number of replicas, even if good copies, would not be welcome. I've seen the occasional Westfield accepted in a class of genuine Lotuses but not an organized approach to expand the grids. On the other hand an organized program to rebuild the same number of cars of the type you are talking about, same number as originally made, even with some degree of limited updating, might be acceptable.

Thank you for your insight here, Derek. My limited experience in the arena leads me to the same conclusion. People have significant investments in cars with actual provenance, and "Chinese-made Gucci handbags", no matter how well made, are not welcome. The FIA has carried this so far as to have a separate designation of "continuation cars", which are identical to the originals, but made by the original constructor or his designated representative in modern times, and even they are treated as red-headed stepchildren.

You can forget racing a DIY Lotus 23 with the real things...

(Not picking on anyone here in particular...but that's the practical reality in my experience.)

But I'm slightly confused, Stan. If your main thrust is a lower cost sports racer for the SCCA P1 class what is your interest in the vintage spec cars for vintage racing? I'm not against it, I'm just not sure I understand it.

Of course there are organisations other than SCCA, SVRA, HSR etc who run race track events and even races who might jump at the idea if they see a business opportunity. But I don't know them well enough.

Anyhoooo - respond here, drop me an email or let's talk on the phone. I'm happy to help if I can. Derek

You confusion is understandable, as there are at least two conversations going on in this thread.

First, my original proposal was...and REMAINS...a set of rules intended to offer the cheapest practical P2 car based on the old VSR limited technology FV-derived concept from the 60's. Just the concept...NOT limited in any way to replica cars. Want a Stohr WF1-VSR? We can build you one!

Second, the conversation morphed a bit as folks posted photos of their favorite (or least favorite!) sports racers from back in the DIY days...and then further morphed into discussion of actual vintage racing. Interesting topic even if probably still-born, and thanks again for your insights into that arena.

[provamo]

heavy Dauntless coverage in latest Racecar Engineering rag

[pahillclimber]

What if, we take a micro sprint and add a LeGrand style nose with boxy sidepods/fenders, stick a diffuser out back. Yes, I know that the micro has a very short wheelbase(about 62"), straight axles, and 10" diameter wheels(F500 tires or go to a 2 inch axle and go to 13" diameter wheels), but they are cheap to buy(used rollers go for $3000 to $4000), with the right engine mount plates any 4 cylinder Jap superbike engine can be installed from 600cc to 1000cc, wide enough to make the 63" wide P2 rule. They are also light enough that ballast might have to be added to make P2 weight.

I know it is a little out of the box and might not be great for Daytona or Road America, but might be ok at a smaller club style track. In PA, they run OK at Williams Grove with a 1000cc engine.

Rich

[provamo]

what is fastest up the hills these days ?

also do all the climbs feature "jumps"?

been wanting to do PHC events since my teens and since i am stuck back east for the summer..........................

[pahillclimber]

The fastest car was George Bowland's Amod BBR car but, he sold it for a Cheetah S/R with his 2 stroke. Otherwise, we have a couple of ex-CART indycars, P1 sports racers, a Hyabusa powered Jedi, GT2 Sunbeam Tiger. It really depends on which hill that we are running as to what works and yes, we still run a few with jumps like Weatherly and Duryea.
Checkout, www.pahillclimb.org for more info.

Yes, I plan on running a Hyper micro sprint in Special 1 (unlimited class up to 1650cc) with my Kawasaki 636 on methanol(140hp,800lbs with driver). Nice thing about methanol, it goes for a little over $3.00 per gallon, bad thing is it wants to destroy everything it touches.

[provamo]

as i understand it methanol has about half the energy value of gasoline so your equivalent cost is $6 a gallon, still cheaper than AV gas

[pahillclimber]

You are correct, we usually see a 15hp gain over a similar gas 600cc bike engine. Hillclimbs usually only have about 10 to 15 minutes of track time per event, no need to carry large amounts of fuel.