Actually - having done the bike conversion to the FF myself - it'd be far easier now (and as competitive) to just update to the MZR motor or another such, keep all the existing rear end, and just build your bodywork...Originally Posted by Rob E
Woulda saved me a ton of time and effort...
let us not re-write history..........................the first Can-Am race was in 1966, therefore Geo. Follmer could not possibly have "won the Can-Am championship" in 1965.....it was the USRRC that Follmer conqueredI didn't just dream up the "Lotus 23 with an aircooled engine" out of thin air. On the contrary, in 1965 George Follmer won the Can-Am championship with a Lotus 23 fitted with a 4-cyl, 2-liter aircooled Porsche motor. Yeah, it was a gazillion dollar 904 Le Mons engine, but take a look at this description. Look at the engine...you can get the same results with a modern Type I or Type 4 engine. The Type I (FV) engine is available in up to 3L+ with 200+ hp on tap at very modest cost.
Strokes chin...
btw at one point in time John Morton raced that car...........a very neat beast nonetheless
Have you seen the Factory Five 818? A track oriented kit car along the same lines. Not as nice looking as a 23, and somehwat heavy for a sport racer, but cheap and hopefully being overbuild by race car standards it would be cheap to operate & maintain.
I have. Followed it pretty closely hoping whatever was given the green light would have been lighter, AWD, and more track car than street car. Wisely, they went after a larger market
Beach VSR
Infact, I bought and owned that car for nearly 10 years. We ended up putting a fully preped 1700 into the car. We didn't dyno the motor, but it had plenty of power. No problems with the suspension. The car was a little heavier than it needed to be, but all in all a very pleasurable experience.
Mike Alexander
ps Hi Stan!
Hi Mike...good to hear from you! The Committee has my request, so I hope to hear something from them within the next month or two. In the meantime, if you have any photos of the car while you had it, please do scan and post them here. Thanks! Stan
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
A two-liter, 150 hp VW-based vehicle makes a lot of sense.
There was a really great guy named Ed Givler running a VW-powered 1300 CSR in the northeast in the early 70s, and he made more than a few BDH-powered cars look bad. If people are going for a vintage look for the vehicle, in my mind The Brabham BT-8 beats a Lotus 23 hands down, but that's not important. Vintage or modern, it can look and go very well.
At 75 hp/L, the power density is low enough to get reliability. Good, well-located, oil squirters, and a large oil cooler will help. Near stock box with an appropriate R&P, so it is not spinning too fast, and you have a simple package that will be a lot of fun...there is so much aftermarket stuff out there that there has to be a good cost/perfomance package of off-the-shelf parts.
And, obviously, people have found ways to make V-dub suspensions work. Stick to Stan's original concept, and it will be a winner: much quicker and better-looking than an SRF, and just as cheap to run.
VW CSR
That VW 1300 CSR wasnt a cicada was it? I've never seen one at a vintage event and have been scouring the net for one. Havent even found a picture. But I know it raced here in the northeast quite a bit.
Eric
Stan, I love the concept of the VW Drivetrain, for more profit to the developer.
This engine/drive package will also be allowed in the Improved Touring Sports Racer that will run in the 1 1/2 hour enduro groups, the Enduro IT Guys really need this new class.
At up to 1950cc with a 2 valve head many mods will be allowed.
I generally want the front suspension to be Miata with a Wilwood Big Brake Kit and this will mostly be a homebuilder class from "Pre-Fab Kits".
Thanks, I will have new Chassis Pics Soon
Speaking as someone who's successfully campaigned a (regional) CSR w/ a $1500 craigslist Suzuki Hayabusa engine for 2 seasons, I don't see any possible way an aircooled VW engine can possibly approach the combination of reliability and cost of a motorcycle engine.
I've spent a lot of time on a car rebuild and undertaking the production of bodywork, lots of practice and maintenance and setup between races. But the engine itself? Zero. Ok, I re-gasketed the starter clutch housing and cover, and I had to install a Rilltech pan and a clutch pack and springs and some block-off plates initially, but for the last 17 events or so? Gas and go. Oil change w/ Motul 3000 every other event.
I don't know anyone w/ a Vee that's on that kind of maintenance schedule.
That's all very interesting, but my proposal is not "the cheapest practical P2 engine", but rather "the cheapest practical P2 complete car". So unless you're using suspension, frame and brake components as restricted and inexpensive as those on an FV or FST, your car's total cost is likely to be far higher than that of a VSR.
After all, I have some experience in this arena...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
The car is a '99 Radical Clubsport the previous owner had uprated to Prosport spec. Also it came with a some nice parts to offset the generally rough condition the chassis was in.
I paid $10k for the car as I got it and it in turn got me through school and my first full season.
I've more than doubled that, but the total includes Ben Beasley's body mold set and new everything. On the basis of lap times vs. $ it's pretty alright.
VW P-2
Stan, any feed back from the CRB yet? I sent in a proposal keeping the swing axel, but allowing double a arm front restricted to outboard springs and shocks (a-la Lotus 23). However, with the VW front suspension, I still think it's a great idea. I can promise you it will be a really low maintenance, fun car!That's all very interesting, but my proposal is not "the cheapest practical P2 engine", but rather "the cheapest practical P2 complete car". So unless you're using suspension, frame and brake components as restricted and inexpensive as those on an FV or FST, your car's total cost is likely to be far higher than that of a VSR.
After all, I have some experience in this arena...
Mike Alexander
Ok, I know it's been dead here for a while, but first I wanted to ask you, Stan, How would you do AWD with a Subaru drivetrain in a Lotus 23 style body?
I would guess a rear engine, with everything backwards and flipped upside down except the engine(Upside down would definitely help axle angles at the transaxle in a low car)
Or, maybe you have an idea for mid engine rear transaxle and some kind of driveshaft turnaround at the back.
Anyways, on the original subject, I would be more in favor of a regulated A-arm setup front and rear, using stock uprights and brakes from a street car that would be plentiful and inexpensive, but fairly high performance, or maybe some circle track type suspension rules and readily available aftermarket spindles and brakes.
I am just wondering about the VW suspension with much wider tires and the geometry's effect on wear if there's much body roll at all. What is tire wear like for Solo Vee? What would it be like in longer races(anything over a minute, up to 30 minutes on rougher surfaces, at higher speeds)
I am generally in favor of a spec line for some type of sports racer in P2 that could be made from mostly production car parts for a reasonable cost, but would like to see more modern stuff used. I like the idea of a stock BRZ engine, although it hasn't been around long enough to be plentiful yet. Were any of the older NA Subie engines of the right HP level, and durability? I think all the DOHC 2.0L were turbos. Maybe a SOHC 2.5 would be good enough. Those are really cheap. If you could flip the gearbox to run the engine low enough it would be better on axles. I think some STI uprights, hubs and brakes would be killer too. Just add a ball joint where the strut mounts. Regular cast iron floating calipers and rotors from an Impreza or Legacy would work great too for less money though.
I wouldn't. The L23 is a mid engine, rwd design while the Subaru is a front engine awd, so I don't see them as readily and cheaply compatible.
If you read the very first post in this thread you will see each of these questions addressed.I would guess a rear engine, with everything backwards and flipped upside down except the engine(Upside down would definitely help axle angles at the transaxle in a low car)
Or, maybe you have an idea for mid engine rear transaxle and some kind of driveshaft turnaround at the back.
Could be, which is why I suggested VW parts. They are well known in SCCA racing and widely and cheaply available from many sources.Anyways, on the original subject, I would be more in favor of a regulated A-arm setup front and rear, using stock uprights and brakes from a street car that would be plentiful and inexpensive, but fairly high performance, or maybe some circle track type suspension rules and readily available aftermarket spindles and brakes.
I can't speak to tire wear in Solo, and doubt it's an issue, but in SCCA road racing FV and FST cars do fine in 30 minute races. The VW ball-joint front and swing-arm or IRS rears have fully adjustable camber, so I don't see this as an issue.I am just wondering about the VW suspension with much wider tires and the geometry's effect on wear if there's much body roll at all. What is tire wear like for Solo Vee? What would it be like in longer races(anything over a minute, up to 30 minutes on rougher surfaces, at higher speeds).
The challenge here is to make a Subaru-based P2 as cheaply as as a VW-based one. Feel free to use the outline I link to in the first post of this thread as a template for drafting a set of rules for the CRB to consider.I am generally in favor of a spec line for some type of sports racer in P2 that could be made from mostly production car parts for a reasonable cost, but would like to see more modern stuff used. I like the idea of a stock BRZ engine, although it hasn't been around long enough to be plentiful yet. Were any of the older NA Subie engines of the right HP level, and durability? I think all the DOHC 2.0L were turbos. Maybe a SOHC 2.5 would be good enough. Those are really cheap. If you could flip the gearbox to run the engine low enough it would be better on axles. I think some STI uprights, hubs and brakes would be killer too. Just add a ball joint where the strut mounts. Regular cast iron floating calipers and rotors from an Impreza or Legacy would work great too for less money though.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
oops, I guess it was Daryl that suggested an AWD 23.
That's what the drivetrain layout comments were about, not the SRV.
I was thinking the VEE suspension might only be working well in it's current road race applications because the tires aren't too wide. I would think a VSR would get wider tires, similar to what the Solo Vee guys are installing.
My thought was that camber changes in roll are exaggerated on wide tires that would be needed for P2 to maintain lap times for 20-30 minutes. I think FST is 6" wide, where as P2 is 10" I have seen Solo Vees on 10" wheels, but I don't know if anyone has tested them at an open track day or anything to see how well that works for road racing.
I didn't see what rules you had for an IRS type rear suspension, but as long as some pivot points on the swingarms(semi-trailing arms)can be moved around, or if other forms of IRS are allowed, the rear shouldn's be a problem, and that just leaves the front, which will probably only be 7-8" with 10" rears for road course use, or maybe 6" front with 9" rear, so maybe all will be fine. I just thought you should make sure that's not going to be an issue for your design. If you take a Solo Vee or any VW type race car with wider wheels to the track and run it for 20 minutes or so, you would have a pretty good idea if it is going to be OK.
VSR Tires
Back in the day I races a CSR, the one mentioned previously in this thread as having been built for Sebring. I ran 10" wide tires at the rear and 8" at the front in SCCA 45 min races. I never saw any tire wear issues.
Mike Alexander
good to know. I guess it is probably not an issue. Thanks Mike.
Of the available Formula Vee and FST cars, which chassis would be a good candidate to convert?
How much would a Dauntless SRV body cost?
Thanks,
Sean Williams
A Dauntless SR body will not fit a FV chassis, as they are designed to fit wheelbases from 96"-104", whereas FVs are restricted to a max wb of 83.5". Sorry!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
a chassis stretch of "a Vee" should be pretty simple
Last edited by provamo; 02.09.14 at 9:22 PM.
Found a body. http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIBER-GLASS-...item461a3a70a7
Anyone know what chassis this was on?
Lola
Ad says Lola Super Vee
Old School approach
This concept was a stretched and widened LeGrand body on Beach tube frame with 2135cc VW motor and Webster VW transaxle. This one's pretty crude (but very effective) and all the parts are readily available, and downforce could be added. Cheap too, which was the original thought, I think.
Old School approach
And for those desiring a more vintage look, this body also fits.
Both are fine looking examples, John. Do you have body molds for them?
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I do indeed. For the LeGrand, the molds would need to be updated if a production run was comtemplated. For the yellow car, production quality molds are 'in hand'.
Ah yes, and a nice website, too!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Thank you! It's a lot to keep track of!
vintage look
I like the vintage look. I can imagine the #65 car looking a lot like a Mclaren M8D CanAm with the addition of a rear wing and some other minor changes. Now if we can only get the VW to sound like a big block V8!
I also really like the "updated" vintage look. Probably can't make enough Df though for P2.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
This is for Purple Frog, a whole lot of posts ago:
1968 Sebring:
Then
Now
1969 Sebring
Then
--
Info from Bill Boye:
There weren’t many people finer than Gene, but he was a terrible businessman. I saw Gene in his first ever SCCA race in a Crosley at Fort Pierce, FL.
I was a VW dealer in Vero Beach and had done stuff with FVs with Gene before. Following Zink‘s run at Daytona in '69, I went to Gene for a VW-powered car for Sebring 8 weeks later. Gene said he had nothing and production orders were backed up, but he had built a Mk4B street car for himself with 1300 stock power, although it hadn’t had much use.
Gene thought about it for a while and then called me to say he thought there was no way that car could be made ready for that race, but he would sell it to me for $1500, and told me to not show up at Sebring with it in that stock configuration! We ran a 1500 in the race that we built at the VW dealership, The induction was twin Weber 48s, which we now know was way over-carbureted but it ran good. We rebuilt the car from top to bottom before the race.
I had a miserable practice at Daytona, we had trouble with the new Isky dry sump system (they had Iskendarian dry sump pump #3). I started race, passing many cars on front straight (Porsche 911s and the like). We had made thirty or forty laps when my co-driver spun and stalled the car. When it wouldn‘t restart, so the enthusiastic corner-workers tried to be helpful and push-started the car. After a few more laps, the race officials announced over the PA that they had disqualified it for the push-start.
We had a good SCCA club racing history with the car after Sebring, then I sold it to a buyer in Texas without the motor.
Now
The LeGrand Mk18 bodywork fitting over the wheels properly, and downforce, would be badass!!
Ten years or so ago I took ALL of the Le Grand fabrication drawings and converted them to AutoCAD.
They are now available from the Le Grand registry on CD.
A very useful but little remembered web site for sports racer data:
http://sports.racer.net/index1.html
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Banshee SR2
I see Banshee Engineering is for sale. I spoke with AJ and found that mods to make the package SCCA compliant would be fairly easy and cheap. Mods include a stock $500 fuel cell and roll bar changes. Lets say 14k for a new race ready car. Not Bad! and perhaps a great foundation for this SR2 concept.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCCA-P1-Spor...t_Street_Legal_
Ready for P1 or would make a great P2
New member-Big fan!
I am blown away by this thread about making a cheap solid fun and safe sports racer based on ACVW! Have been planning, designing and scheming for years, finally people on the same page. I was just about to switch to the 1000cc bike/DSR camp.I thought what the heck, why fight it. Besides I work at two colleges, both have 5axis cnc and 3D printing. One has a year old water-jet and the other just took delivery of a 20 foot long 15 hp wind tunnel for their rocket program has built carbon fiber rockets from just the yarn. So just go all high tech and join the crowd. But now that I know I am not alone I will reconsider. I went so far as to mentally design a VSR with 2135 cc because it would fit in CSR. I know the modern cars would probably trounce it, but so what, I'm having fun without spending a fortune. Even toyed with the crazy idea of building a formula Atlantic the same way just to shock people and giggle all day at the reaction to it. I have put hundreds of hours of thought and planning into this and now just may build the CSR with BJ front end stock gearbox and 2135cc with the works. Hell might as well spring for one of those pretty bodies from BEACH. Been driving VW's for years and just purchased a Super Beetle to get back into SCCA in ITC. Will keep that car road derivable and it makes a great way to test engines and other parts.
Let me know what you think.
I am not sure how often this site gets used but I really love this idea. Has there been any movement on this concept?
With all of the work that needed to be done to classify the existing cars in P2 the CRB asked me to resubmit my proposal in 2015, which I will do in the next few weeks. Thank you for the interest.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
With all of the work that needed to be done to classify the existing cars in P2 the CRB asked me to resubmit my proposal in 2015, which I will do in the next few weeks. Thank you for the interest.
Stan,
Do you know if there are sources for the bodies of some of the sports racers from the '60's era?
I think the Zink sports car that he ran at Sebring is in existence and might be duplicated. Maybe you should look at reconstructions of the cars that were built at the time such as the Zink and Beach. Maybe SVRA might recognize such a class.
There is such a class - Group 5 - but the real question is whether enough would turn up to make an interesting race within a race. S2000s did just that over the last few years in Group 7 - to such an extent that the original 2L Sports Racers from the late-60s/70s have mostly been "frightened away".
But Stan was talking about a modern version that would be SCCA P2 competitive - right Stan?
Not saying that both can't exist - they would be different cars with somewhat similar basic concept.
www.virhistory.com/beach
Last edited by dereklola; 12.26.14 at 5:31 PM. Reason: link added.
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