Or if you prefer something more vintage appearing, at least pick something better looking.
Which we make also...
Or if you prefer something more vintage appearing, at least pick something better looking.
Which we make also...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
How about a Daytona prototype version, known as the late Tijuana Taxi?
Stan,
This not a new idea, but do we need sports racers built out of a car designed in the 1930s? Is putting a full body on a formula vee or first really going to entice anyone new to our sport; especially, if they are going to be backmarkers? Plus, just look at the GCR, it is a mess, full of spaghetti engineered classes to the point the average human gets turned off to SCCA after a few minutes. Lastly, having been around the sport for 40 years, I can attest one simple fact, highly stressed, large air-cooled Vw engines love to blow up or need a rebuild after every season; and it can make these engines very expensive to maintain. Good luck.
Rich
Always my favorite first race car love.Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
Or if you prefer something more vintage appearing, at least pick something better looking.
Which we make also...
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
BTW, Jay...we have the bodywork molds for that car.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Actually, how cool would it be to see that bodywork on a say, relatively late model "D" chassis? Like a Cheetah?
Just bored and thinking out loud....
Thanks for that info Stan. Now, how can we make it look just like the 23 and make competitive downforce?BTW, Jay...we have the bodywork molds for that car.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Rich, thanks for the thoughtful points and questions.
I would start my reply by pointing out that being designed in the 1930's hasn't kept FV from being far and away the most popular formula class in SCCA for at least the past decade. In fact, of all the classes in SCCA, only the two spec classes (SM & SRF) have been consistently more popular.
Second, IMO SR2 is going to have a short lifespan if an affordable, competitive alternative is not found to the $70-grand Euro Sports 2000 cars. They cost as much as a front running SR1 or Formula Atlantic. Besides, there is only one in the country, plus three conversions in progress that I know of. Add in the CN cars, the ESRs, the AMACs and Cheetahs, the 1st gen Stohrs and Wests, plus the oddballs and one-offs and you still have what...60-70 cars? And how many of those cars does one see racing Nationals these days?
I also get your point about large-displacement ACVWs, which is why I've leaned on the knowledge base in the FST world to select parts and rules that should be up to the task. Not to mention the improvements to VW parts in recent decades. The bottom line is that I think we can make this work. Besides, at the recent dbl rational here one of my DSR buddies popped a Gixxer in practice, so did an engine swap...then popped that engine in the Sunday race, so it's not like bike motors are paragons of reliability. Do that often enough and pretty soon it adds up to real money.
Thanks again!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Piranha
Anyone remember these - Mid Ohio 1970s?
As my school reports often said "Some progress has been made".
I've read thru this a few times now, and I have to say that I really like this idea. As a current FV'er, I've been researching & trying to learn more about the VW stuff. Thru all of that, I now see why VW still has such a cult following. I think Stan & Jim could make a very cool car/concept that would work. VW parts are & will be available for their performance goal range.
If you use the molds & body from the Lotus & put that over a "FST on steroids" chassis, I think that would appeal to the guys that want a Lotus or similar looking vintage car, but can't afford it. Also, being the SR2 class is for the older CSR & DSR cars, I think the lower downforce numbers would be easier to compete against. I think part of the appeal would be that you get to 'drive' the car more, not rely on wings & ground effects. If you want a car that has wings, undertrays & pulls a lot of cornering G's, there are other existing options already.
The engines rules are just about right. I personally would prefer any VW transaxle, not just swingaxles, to make it more 'modern'. And yes, I do realize that is mildly ironic, considering what we are talking about. I also think an aftermarket fabricated steel beam should be allowed that does not need the towers cut off. There is no aero gain in a sportsracer, and there are a lot places making some pretty nice parts already.
Obviously you guys have more experience with cars over the years, but you are very close to an idea my Dad & I have had for a fun & unique hill climber. I think it would be a fun car, and there a lot of VW people out there of all ages.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Thank you, Matt. I appreciate the support and comments.
Several persons have contacted me about both issues you raise, and they will be in incorporated in the second draft of the proposed rules. Specifically, the beam rule will permit widened beams and aftermarket beams (how else to meet the minimum width rule?), as well as permitting the VW IRS. There will be several engine detail changes, as well. Thanks again, Stan
PS - Wider will mean greater track, as well...of course.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Interesting thread. Thanks.
I own one of the original VSR's from Chuck Tatum. Its serial number 1, the prototype and the one pictured on the web with James Garner in it.
Eric, please tell us more about your car! Beam type? Engine displacement and state of tune? Gearbox type and setup. Weight...etc.
And photos! We would all love to see her with and without clothes...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Currently is 1835cc, VW swing axle rear, and ball joint front end. I run hoosier 550 Vintage TDs and its a fabulous car. Pics attached
Fantastic photos, Eric...thanks!
BTW, what do you think of this idea?
PS - LOVE the droop limiters...
Last edited by Stan Clayton; 04.03.13 at 10:26 AM.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I am more of a vintage guy so am not up on newer sports racers, but I am for anything that attracts and KEEPS interest in motor sports. Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur with interests in bird hunting and car racing both of which are sometimes looked down on by the parts of the green generation. In my mind anything we can do to encourage folks to experience how much fun can be had is worth it.
I've raced Radical Clubsport #055 for several seasons. The first in DSR w/ the (tired) GSXR1000 engine that came in the (tired, $10k) car. I swapped in a $1500 craigslist Hayabusa engine, new cell, dash, wiring etc. and did an abbreviated season last year ending in the tire wall at Summit Point T8.
I did a complete rebuild last winter, and bought Ben Beasley's set of body molds. The car scales at 1224# w/ lots of extra post-race fuel load, and is very easy to drive and operate.
The car is essentially brand new, and assuming my time to develop it has been free, I'm in for around $25k including purchase of the molds.
The car fits the SR2 rules very well, and the weight is about perfect. It is a couple inches narrower than the SR2 current width of 63" - but radical is on the spec car list, but with all info TBD. I'd hope they'd let it run at it's manufactured width. There must be more of these cars lurking in garages and SR2 would be a nice playing field.
Regarding reliability, stock Hayabusa engines with a good oil pan and geared "responsibly" stay together very well. A super-built GSXR 1000 rev'd to 13k not so much.
Also - at VIR a couple weeks ago at the SARRC/MARRS Sunday race, the car I needed to beat to maintain my series points lead retired Saturday, and the remaining CSR (an enterprises car) is a couple seconds slower than me. I spent the race working on my line running with an S2000. My best lap was .04" faster than his, but I never had enough advantage anywhere that if I got by I'd get away.
So If I were in a field of A-Macs, Cheetahs and S2 cars it'd probably be fair and fun.
So my vote for bargain SR2 is an old Radical Clubsport/Prosport.
(BTW - I'm the contact for body parts now if you don't want to ship from the UK)
I can't help but think that a new car based on old VW low-tech suspension and driveline components offers nothing in the way of excitement or interest to the lower funded entry-level potential racers. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but to me, there is a ton more sex appeal in an F600 with SR swoopy bodywork.
All racers have to ask themselves a few questions:
How much disposable income do I have to do this with?
What sort of car am I interested in?
Do I want to compete at the Run-Offs?
Do I want to just run Regionally?
How many races can I afford the time and money to do each year?
Can I work on the car myself?
The wide range of answers to these questions probably defines 99% of the Club Racers out there. In SEDIV we have a very successful Regional program. We also have a number of National/RunOffs type racers. For SCCA Club Racing to be successful, it has to provide a venue that appeals to and provides enjoyment for all of these racers.
Maybe SCCA has some statistics that can tell us how many drivers do RunOffs, run Regionals only (and how many a year), etc. Those entry statistics can easily identify the most preferred type of racing.
Craig Farr
2006 Stohr WF1 P2
FARROUT Racing
Maybe so, but Formula Vee and Formula First between them have about 5 times as many annual entries as DSR (and twice as many as DSR, CSR and S2 put together), so I wouldn't be too sure of that opinion.
More importantly, SR2 is going to be a capped-performance class, with different platforms nudged together in performance over time. That creates an opportunity for price-to-performance-ratio to play an important role, which it can't do in an open performance class like DSR.
I'm on the seventh version of the rules and am about ready to submit the package.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I'd agree, there certainly is. The sexy car sells and then ends up sitting in a garage because the owner is discouraged with how much it costs to campaign competitively.
Three of the fugliest and slowest classes in their families are the highest subscribed. Building a car that doesn't cost a ton to campaign competitively ends up with large(r) run groups and more active racers. SM, SRF and FV. Bottom of the ladder in each of their families, all ugly and lower (comparitively) tech than others.
Car has got to be cheapish to buy and campaign if you want healthy fields.
I think that Stan has a great concept. The only issue I see is the power to weight ratio for the class. The target car will weigh 1300lbs and have 185hp. This is a target of 7lbs/hp.
If the 1835cc VW can make a reliable 145hp then the car would have to weigh in at 1115lbs with driver. IMO This is not possible with FV style construction and the addition of a full SR body and a rear wing.
A realistic target weight for this type of car might be about 1100lbs. This means that you will need at least 157hp to be reasonably competitive.
Another alternative would be to use modern suspension and construction methods, this MIGHT allow for a 1000lb min weight with the driver.
Any thoughts out there on how to get 157hp or down to 1000lbs. Another issue is that a spec line for the engine would have to be created and approved by the CRB.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
157 is certainly possible (We have built several "tame" ones in the 145 area.) But you are pushing the longevity of the VW engines at 1835cc and 157 HP. Depending upon the rules package it can be done. (aluminum cases vs. mag, aftermarket trans cases, etc.) But some of these things add weight. Cooling also becomes an issue.
That's for the full sized car, Jay. Just as a 66" wide, 1000 lb DSR can be just as fast as a larger and heavier CSR with 50+ hp, a small, light VSR can be configured to run with the Euro 2000 cars. It will take some tweaking, but I am confident it can be done economically.
It absolutely CAN be done. My FV weighs 795 lbs, and it's chassis is built like a tank. In fact there is a west coast guy who makes my same chassis 40 lbs lighter than stock. I know what our undertray, body and wings weigh, and with that lighter chassis I am confident we can bring a car in right at 1100 lbs with driver.If the 1835cc VW can make a reliable 145hp then the car would have to weigh in at 1115lbs with driver. IMO This is not possible with FV style construction and the addition of a full SR body and a rear wing.
In any case, 1835cc won't do it in an aircooled VW. They aren't as thermodynamically efficient as watercooled engines, so they will need more displacement, which is why I recommend 2000cc.
With 2000cc we should be able to get up to about 150 hp to get in the ball parkA realistic target weight for this type of car might be about 1100lbs. This means that you will need at least 157hp to be reasonably competitive.
A "modern" suspension opens up the cars to endless and expensive development, which is the exact opposite of the intent of my proposal. To get to the 150 hp range we need 2000cc and similar specs to what was just approved for the watercooled SuperVee in SR2: 11:1 CR, dual 45mm carbs with 36mm/38mm chokes, and .475" lift & 270 degrees cam spec.Another alternative would be to use modern suspension and construction methods, this MIGHT allow for a 1000lb min weight with the driver.
Any thoughts out there on how to get 157hp or down to 1000lbs. Another issue is that a spec line for the engine would have to be created and approved by the CRB.
Give that the green light and I'll build one. I already have a body, BJ front suspension, disc brakes, tranny, shocks, etc.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Picking up on Jay's comments, how about building around the Subaru boxer engine and drive train? You have 140 or 170 hp. engines and 5 or 6 speed transmissions. Very similar to VW but likely more available at salvage prices.
Modern suspension does not have to be expensive if some careful thought goes into the design.
I don't think that the VW suspension package will work very well in the type car being discussed here. While it may been cheep to build, try tearing a corner off a FV. It doesn't happen. More likely the car gets airborne.
Modern suspension does not have to be expensive and you can spec the design at the get go.
A few years ago, I did a design study to see if I could do a front upright, brakes and wheel for under $500. I think it can be done.
Last edited by S Lathrop; 05.19.13 at 10:06 PM.
There's plenty of room in SR2 for more ideas, Steve. Jump on it!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
And these SR2 can be single seat? Thinking old FF chassis with 1000cc stock or 600cc built motorcycle type engine. I think that those would make that 175 HP that Jay was mentioning.
Yep...dive right in.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
SR2 has so much potential for many different approaches. Keep in mind the approx 7 lbs/hp target.
You are right Stan, a 2000cc VW engine will get it done. Everything I have seen indicates that the hp is there at that displacement. Lots of good parts available for very low prices. Keep the RPM low and they will live long with the right parts.
What body would you use? How about a single seat version of the 23?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Yes, there is almost no cost difference from 1600cc up to about 2500cc, since you have to start by purchasing a counter-weighted crankshaft anyway. These engines are very well supported by the off-road market and parts prices are very low with lots of sources, so prices should stay very affordable for a long time.
If I used the 23 body it would be as a two-seater. We've sketched up the design to improve downforce without detracting too much from its looks, and may eventually do one, but the first iteration will likely be a single-seater with a closed-in front based on our DSR body kit.What body would you use? How about a single seat version of the 23?
Last edited by Stan Clayton; 12.29.16 at 3:14 PM.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
If you are talking about a built up engine, which any VW based engine will be, you are in $10,000 engines. Even a FV engine is looking at that same price point.
The other problem I see here is the size of the market. I don't see that one SCCA class will support a business building race cars, especially a SR class. But Stohr does stay in business, so what do I know.
I also think you want to base the components on currently available production cars or motorcycles drive trains.
If you do a 23 looking cars, i.e. 2 passenger, then the market might be much better with both SCCA club racing and track day vehicle.
All the big FV engine builders are quoting $6000 to $7000 for new national FV engines, with several assuring me they can build a 150 hp 2L VSR engine for less than that. FST engines are about 2/3 the price of FV engines even though they are based on the same engine platform and make 50% more power...the devil is in the details.
Our composites business is already self-sustaining...a VSR would be adding product line, not starting a new business from scratch, but I do get your point.The other problem I see here is the size of the market. I don't see that one SCCA class will support a business building race cars, especially a SR class.
We're on the same page here, Steve. Our ultimate "Dauntless 23" ASR/track day car is planned out with Porsche 914/911 running gear with a 200+ hp Type IV engine and a 5-sp 914 gearbox.If you do a 23 looking cars, i.e. 2 passenger, then the market might be much better with both SCCA club racing and track day vehicle.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
How about the turbo Subaru engine in that car? They have one version of the 4 cylinder engine with 305 hp. in street trim.
Yep, I've got a 2.5T Subaru street car/donor car. I'd love a 2-seater awd 23 with a front splitter/rear difuser so I could have some downforce and deal the crack at open track days...
I'll take one of those Stan!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
We may have to raise the bar a little, Jay...Steve's onto something.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
No problem, I will take one of those instead.We may have to raise the bar a little, Jay...Steve's onto something.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Daryl, We were at a PCA autocross event at Alameda recently with a customer driving a 914 with that powertrain in front of a 915 'box in XP. He'd start in 3rd gear and still had to use an electronic launch control to keep tire spin under control. It was like 5 seconds quicker than the next fastest car...a brand new gazillion-dollar GT-3R.
A package like that is not a toy for the casual track day guy...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I didn't just dream up the "Lotus 23 with an aircooled engine" out of thin air. On the contrary, in 1965 George Follmer won the Can-Am championship with a Lotus 23 fitted with a 4-cyl, 2-liter aircooled Porsche motor. Yeah, it was a gazillion dollar 904 Le Mons engine, but take a look at this description. Look at the engine...you can get the same results with a modern Type I or Type 4 engine. The Type I (FV) engine is available in up to 3L+ with 200+ hp on tap at very modest cost.
Strokes chin...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Well then Spec23STi on it's own SR2 line would be okay with meA package like that is not a toy for the casual track day guy...
Damn- this is getting interesting. Especially when you said Porsche 904 specs from a VW plant.
Got my attention.
I just went back and read that story. THAT was very cool. My father raced a 904 from '64 or '65 to '67, including Sebring. He very well could have been in that Pensacola race, and got his butt kicked by that car...
Last edited by Brett Lane; 05.20.13 at 6:53 PM.
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