Paddock or trailer wheels?

[Top]

I have searched the forums and there are many great ideas to be found, but I'm wondering what the Dallara F3 folks are using? I'm having a heck of a time getting the car on and off of my trailer and need ideas. Has anyone found a simple and cost effective solution?

[mikey]

are your issues related to ground clearance or width between the car and trailer?

for my FE, I goofed around with several ways to get it on and off for the last 6 months. my race ramps arrive tomorrow. a small investment to permanently reduce the hassle. should be able to get a sufficiently flat transition from the ground to the inside of the trailer now, including some use of the trailer's front jack. I bought the 6' long race ramps, so I will even be able to leave the nose on the car.

mikey

[Revs2-12k]

IMO, Paddock wheels are way too much of a hassle.

Install a 12V Trailer jack and lift the nose and take away the transition. Use 2 ramps as extensions on your trailer beaver tail if need be. If you engineer it all right, you can even leave the nose on like me Problem solved.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...1584_200381584

[Top]

Good ideas guys. They are also ideas I've tried. Removing the nose is not something I want to do often on this car since it can't be done quickly and easily. The car sits low even for a formula car and it is very easy to smash the nose or high center the car. My current setup is to raise the nose of the trailer to the correct level, run up long ramps to curved (convex) ramps to level the car over the beaver tail. The ramps are set far enough apart to clear the front wing and the diffuser. The problem is that it only leaves about 1.5" of the outside edge of the tires on the ramps. I'm worried that one slight misalignment could end up causing damage. I've tried a lot of different set ups to try to make it easier because I don't want to have to swap wheels all the time. However, it's become such a PIA that I'm ready to give in the paddock wheels.

On a side note, the set up I had with my SE3 worked so well that I could come off of the track and drive the car into the trailer without even removing the front wing.

[Rick Kirchner]

put trailer jacks under the top edge of the trailer door, and run ramps out from there. the jacks allow you to level the setup despite the underlying ground and set the angle.

I've raised the nose as well, but you are pulling up on the tow vehicle unless you want to unhitch.

If you have a beavertail I'd be surprised if you need more than 6".

[Top]

Rick, another good suggestion. I actually do use stackable jack leveler / stabilizer pads under the trailer door. If I have everything exactly right I can get the car on the ramp but I still can't clear the beavertail.

Keep the ideas coming. If I've missed something I'll be happy to try it.

[Charles Warner]

If you are saying the car, when fully on the trailer will not clear the beavertail then (1) get another trailer, (2) raise the rear of car with spring inserts, or (3) work up some system of mini ramps that will go in front of the rear tires after the front tires are over the beavertail.

[mikey]

I purposely did not buy a trailer with a beaver tail because I was afraid it would high center under the formula car..


One of my initial thoughts before buying race ramps, to ease the transition, came from another guy who said he just puts a piece of pipe under his car and rolls it on that when the floor hits. I thought instead of that, I could recess some heavy duty (conveyor) type rollers in the floor at the transition high point, so that the car would slide in just fine until back on its own tires. McMaster Carr offers some good options for rollers.

-mikey

[Richard Hybels]

I just bought a set of Miata wheels for $120 and once the center hole is bored 3mm to 57mm and the holes for lugs are egged out a bit from 100mm to 3 3/4 I should be good to go.
jacking up the nose of the trailer way high works also but I have to disconnect rig of course.

[Bob Wheless]

Some times, just a 1/2 by 1 to 2 inch wide stripes, of varring lengths , up to 6 feet or so will carry you over the tight spots ,,, if it works cheap , easy , once you find the spots you can screw it to the floor.....bob

[Top]

Charles, option one I love but the wallet won't allow it. (2) is an interesting idea, and (3) is something I'm working with.

Mikey, I wish I'd been smart enough not to buy a beavertail. Sadly, I got in a hurry and bought what was available locally.

Richard, exactly the kind of info I was looking for. What kind of car is yours? Is it a Dallara? After reading your post I contacted a friend and he offered to give me a set of stock 94 Miata wheels. I'm going to see if it can work for me.

Bob, I like the way you think. Part of my plan was to secure runners with some kind of quick release so that they could not move around or shoot out from under a tire at the wrong time. So far I haven't found the right combination.

Here's a quick phone pic I just took of my current setup. Note, the ramp at the top is sort of hump shaped to lift it over the beavertail.

Thanks for all the ideas!

[HayesCages]

Too bad there wasn't something on the market to just make the (blank-blank-blank). No need to mess with ramps or swapping tires...
I don't have it perfected yet though.

I had the same problem and built a folding "ramp"; 4 inches tall, about 6" wide, 5' long, slopes at each end, folds in the middle, made of aluminum. Only need one. Just place in front of front or rear tire before you roll over your problem area and it lifts the chassis a bunch. You do need to anchor it if it's on a slope though. Only works on open wheelers...


Lawrence

[john f]

I lift the tailgate if the car high sides depending on the leveling of the motor home. The tailgate has 2 electric tongue jacks mounted to it.

john f

[mikey]

one other idea we were fooling with, although never got around to making up the "kit", was a bunch of 2" thick styrene (styrofoam?) blocks, about 4"x6" size. tested compression, the FE compressed the blocks to 1" thick. Gaining an additiona inch of clearance would make it really easy. idea was to string the blocks together and either wrap them around the tires or simply lay them on the ramp like boards, except lightweight and "collapsable".

[Charles Warner]

I lift the tailgate if the car high sides depending on the leveling of the motor home. The tailgate has 2 electric tongue jacks mounted to it.

john f

I use the same idea but have electric winches that lift the door. They are much less intrusive. It won't work in this situation as the beavertail is an issue.

[racerdad2]

Just saw a truck & trailer at COTA with the rear of the truck backed up onto ramps, the kind you normally drive forward onto. This put his trailer & ramp in a straight line . EZ fix for him !

[Dick R.]

The problem is that it only leaves about 1.5" of the outside edge of the tires on the ramps. I'm worried that one slight misalignment could end up causing damage.

Are you driving on? If you are winching might take some risk out of the tight fit. I use a hand winch (open trailer) but I assume a remote for an electric winch would also give lots of control.

Dick
85 VD

[wmunsey]

I just back my FA onto the ramp and then lift the rear with the T-bar quick lift and roll the car into the trailer past the beavertail. We do the same with the GTP car when we haul it in a non-liftgate trailer. If you have a winch it is a one person operation. The added benefit, you can easily move the rear end of the car to fit between the trailer fenders. Just be careful when you unload to not let the quicklift wheels get caught between the trailer floor and the trailer tailgate.

[john f]

I use the same idea but have electric winches that lift the door. They are much less intrusive. It won't work in this situation as the beavertail is an issue.

My trailer is a beaver tail and that is why I did what I did! Lifting the tailgate allows the car to make it over the hump. As far as being intrusive, I don't know. I have loaded different cars, including street rods, using this setup. I would be leary of trying that with winches from above. I guess it depends on what you want to do.

john f

[Top]

Lot's of great ideas. One thing is for sure, if I ever buy another trailer it will not have a beavertail. I do like the idea of the jacks or winch on he lift gate but with the beavertail it won't work as Charles said. I don't expect to be able to drive it on like I did with the SE3 although it sure would be nice. Racerdad mentioned the ramps under the rear wheels of the truck. I had forgotten that I almost always did that when I had the Swift. Thanks for the reminder. wmunsey's Idea of going on backwards is something I haven't tried yet. I'll give it a shot to see what happens.

A few months ago we had the car on Phil Creighton's trailer and even with lots of boards and jacks it took four of us and multiple tries to get it off of his trailer and on mine.

Again, thanks for all the replies. It's really appreciated.

[Top]

John F, that's interesting. I will have to experiment with lifting the gate with the car on it to see if I can make it work. It doesn't seem like it would work but I'm sure willing to take a shot at it since it works for you. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time and I'll be happy to admit it...

[Charles Warner]

My trailer is a beaver tail and that is why I did what I did! Lifting the tailgate allows the car to make it over the hump. As far as being intrusive, I don't know. I have loaded different cars, including street rods, using this setup. I would be leary (sic) of trying that with winches from above. I guess it depends on what you want to do.

john f

Your system, or mine, solves the issue of making the transition from door to trailer floor a straight shot (eliminating the break.) That has little to nothing to do with the transition from one side of the "beaver tail" to the other because at some time the rear wheels will be on the back side of the break and the front wheels will be on the front side of the break (assuming going in nose first.) Door height has nothing to do with that. The car is low enough that it will bottom on that transition. The rear (or front) wheels of the car must be raised relative the other wheels in some manner.

With two 1500# dead lift winches I have plenty of power to raise the door with just the rear of the car on it.

[DanW]

Your system, or mine, solves the issue of making the transition from door to trailer floor a straight shot (eliminating the break.) That has little to nothing to do with the transition from one side of the "beaver tail" to the other because at some time the rear wheels will be on the back side of the break and the front wheels will be on the front side of the break (assuming going in nose first.) Door height has nothing to do with that. The car is low enough that it will bottom on that transition. The rear (or front) wheels of the car must be raised relative the other wheels in some manner.

With two 1500# dead lift winches I have plenty of power to raise the door with just the rear of the car on it.

How about adding a pair of ramp boards just before and just beyond the dovetail transition to raise the front wheels and chassis just high enough and long enough to clear?

[Dick R.]

How about adding a pair of ramp boards just before and just beyond the dovetail transition to raise the front wheels and chassis just high enough and long enough to clear?

If for some reason the above won't work, maybe some sort of variation of dollies under one the wheels at one end . . . similar to the T-bar solution earlier?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...0522_200430522

Dick

[john f]

Your system, or mine, solves the issue of making the transition from door to trailer floor a straight shot (eliminating the break.) That has little to nothing to do with the transition from one side of the "beaver tail" to the other because at some time the rear wheels will be on the back side of the break and the front wheels will be on the front side of the break (assuming going in nose first.) Door height has nothing to do with that. The car is low enough that it will bottom on that transition. The rear (or front) wheels of the car must be raised relative the other wheels in some manner.

With two 1500# dead lift winches I have plenty of power to raise the door with just the rear of the car on it.

Forgive me, but I do not understand. I life the door up, The rear of the car comes up, along with the bottom of the car. The bottom comes up proportionately less as you move forward, but it still comes up. I lift the door enough until the bottom clears and roll the car into the trailer. What am I missing? Thanks much.

When the door is angled down at the back and you are pulling at an angle to the door you will lose a lot of that 3000# "dead lift". It might be enough to lift a race car, but if loading a full size street car you may have problems. Just a thought.

john f

[Charles Warner]

Forgive me, but I do not understand. I life the door up, The rear of the car comes up, along with the bottom of the car. The bottom comes up proportionately less as you move forward, but it still comes up. I lift the door enough until the bottom clears and roll the car into the trailer. What am I missing? Thanks much.

When the door is angled down at the back and you are pulling at an angle to the door you will lose a lot of that 3000# "dead lift". It might be enough to lift a race car, but if loading a full size street car you may have problems. Just a thought.

john f

John,

I think you are misunderstanding what a "beaver tail" is. You are speaking of the transition of door to trailer floor. On a beaver tail trailer there is another transition inside the trailer that has nothing to do with the door. It is that second transition we are discussing. It is difficult to see in the picture above because of the shadow.

As far as the winches, if I need to load a full sized street car I'll just drive it on as there will be plenty of ground clearance. Absolutely no need for lifting the door. The winches are strong enough to lift the door with the car on it and, as an added bonus, I use them to close the door as well.

[Top]

Forgive me, but I do not understand. I life the door up, The rear of the car comes up, along with the bottom of the car. The bottom comes up proportionately less as you move forward, but it still comes up. I lift the door enough until the bottom clears and roll the car into the trailer. What am I missing? Thanks much.

When the door is angled down at the back and you are pulling at an angle to the door you will lose a lot of that 3000# "dead lift". It might be enough to lift a race car, but if loading a full size street car you may have problems. Just a thought.

john f

John, I think in my case what you're missing and I probably haven't said is that my car high centers within inches of the tires crossing the beavertail. I'm going to test it your way to see if I'm wrong but I believe even if I have the lift gate level with the back of the trailer thatnitnwill still high center. Possibly not as quickly but I still think it will. If I'm correct and it doesn't work if may however open up the possibility of a simple in from of the rear tires that will help.

I see that Charles has replied while Imwas writing this and if he is right about you not realizing that it is a transition inside the trailer and not at the hinged door it would explain why we are seeing this differently.

[Wren]

After reading all of this, I have to say that I have a strong preference for using a set of paddock wheels to load the car. Instead of messing with backing the truck onto ramps, dragging around long pieces of wood, or modding the trailer to be able to lift the ramp, it is hard to beat bolting on a set of paddock wheels and driving the car in the trailer.
It is nice to be able to take tires off and bag them or whatever you want to do with them or be able to raise the car to drive to grid if you are not paddocked on asphalt.

OP, do you know the bolt pin diameters and bolt circle for your wheels?

[Top]

After reading all of this, I have to say that I have a strong preference for using a set of paddock wheels to load the car. Instead of messing with backing the truck onto ramps, dragging around long pieces of wood, or modding the trailer to be able to lift the ramp, it is hard to beat bolting on a set of paddock wheels and driving the car in the trailer.
It is nice to be able to take tires off and bag them or whatever you want to do with them or be able to raise the car to drive to grid if you are not paddocked on asphalt.

OP, do you know the bolt pin diameters and bolt circle for your wheels?

I hate to admit it but I don't know the bolt pin diameters and bolt circle for my wheels. Since I started this thread I haven't had a chance to get to the car and I was hoping one of the Dallara guys would (a) post it, and (b) would be able to to tell me what they are using in the parts of he world where these cars are commonly found.

[Tim FF19]

The lower the car the more useful the paddock wheels are. I used to think they were just extra equipment to buy and haul around. Then I tried a set. You can move the car around with ease compared to race wheels. Much much better than any ramp arrangement. Well worth the effort to locate a set that fits your car. Wheels are on and off these cars all the time on race weekends so I don't see the hassle with changing them. Like Wren said, put em on and drive the car on the trailer by yourself!

[john f]

John,

I think you are misunderstanding what a "beaver tail" is. You are speaking of the transition of door to trailer floor. On a beaver tail trailer there is another transition inside the trailer that has nothing to do with the door. It is that second transition we are discussing. It is difficult to see in the picture above because of the shadow.

As far as the winches, if I need to load a full sized street car I'll just drive it on as there will be plenty of ground clearance. Absolutely no need for lifting the door. The winches are strong enough to lift the door with the car on it and, as an added bonus, I use them to close the door as well.

To both Charles and Top. I know that you can not see it in the picture that I posted, but my trailer is a "beaver tail" with the transition inside just as you talk about. I load the Tiga in forward, and have approx 1.25" of ground clearance under the tub. Believe me when I say that it "HI-sides" on the hump INSIDE the trailer. Also, believe me when I say that lifting the tail gate as I describe allows the car to roll in, IT WORKS!

I have a 1960 Rambler American station wagon that sits low enough that it hi sides at times. Yes, it has been lowered a bit, but that is how I like it and drive it. It only scrapes the rail road tracks a bit .

john f

[racerdad2]

There's a tread on paddock wheels. I made my own. Several options. I believe you'll like em when you try em

[Qwester007]

We have tried a variety of different techniques and the one that works best for us is putting the front wheels up on dollies- this eliminated the high centering issue.

Good Luck

[JeremyS]

At normal ride height, my CSR will high-center on the beavertail transition inside the trailer. My first solution was to pull the car into the trailer with the front quick jack. The procedure was basically: push car up ramps until nose was even with the 'top' of the door, lift nose with quick jack, pull car onto trailer while slowly lowering the nose so that the rear diffuser didn't drag.

I now have a set of paddock wheels. Even though I have to remove the front and rear bodywork to put them on, the ease of loading is worth it.

Jeremy

[Westroc]

I have a set of paddock wheels available. Once you get your measurements.