CoTA-official thread

[iamuwere]

RULE BOOK
=====
Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when
the green flag is displayed.

=====

emphasis on racing begins and throughout the field with the words green flag displayed

[Daryl DeArman]

And I don't see the difference between the 'dignity' of winning a race after a protest or after I separate myself from 2nd place by putting a couple of fast cars between us on a yellow flag.

The difference is quite clear to me.

[KevinFirlein]

rule book - no passing under yellow . and yes if the station is slow to drop the flag that corner is still yellow till its dropped whether its the original start or a restart. anyone you pass that has a camera that shows you and the yellow flag still up has you by the short and curlies.

[iamuwere]

Except the part that says when the green is waived racing starts throughout the field.

It seems to be clear that the rules are unclear at best.

[James Michael]

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

This discussion reminds me of this - what fun.

James

[JScarallo]

This was my first ever National/SCCA race and I personally was not sure with the restart on how that would work. Because yes its green at the start finish line for a restart but the corner workers still have yellows so am I allowed to pass or not?

A mili second before I officially get the call for green (about a mile from the start/finish line) I see the stohr and astra passing the JDR car and then I get the call for green, so I say well I guess we pass them since they are! Which I did and the officials agreed. I never actually passed Loshak until the front straight anyway so I am in the good anyway. Without a doubt the rule needs to be re-written/clarified

Videos coming soon.

[Northwind]

If I see yellow I treat it as a yellow. There has been a number of times I have seen someone that has been over-zealous warming their tires and has spun in the track. Even if it is a re-start, how do you know the track is safe in front of you. I use the corner stations, plain and simple.

I actually would like to see a rule change adopting the pro format. The track isn't green until you cross the sart line. I have seen some close calls with those that don't have radios and those that react assuming everyone else does.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Obviously restart procedure was confusing, with so many experienced drivers not knowing what to do (even now).

If I were in charge, no penalties for passing under yellow on restart, go do a rewrite of the rules regarding this situation, move on. Something like this should be black and white and imo, right now it doesn't seem to be.

[Garry Sharp]

What happens in the part of the field that can't physically see the green flag and don't have a radio or have one that is working. Some people going racing because they were told on their radio the green waved a half mile ahead and some people not knowing could cause serious problems. It seems the rule may have originally meant go when when you "see" the green flag waving. That would kind of explain the yellows still out on the corners before the start-finish.

Just a thought, I am not a National racer so don't tear me a new one.

[glenn cooper]

DD16 +++ You are absolutely right!

The - "I don't give a flying freckle what flags are being displayed where I am at the track, but when the starter throws the green, and my headset is filled with GGG, I am G-O-N-E, GONE..." - is a good summary of the problem. Actually there was no problem on my end, as a driver. I have a pair of eyes, and a brain that connects those eyes, hands, and feet just fine, thanks.

Pace lap - look for the stations. Race start - respect your competition.Absolutely! When someone that is in front of you suddenly becomes easy to pass - does it take a 'rocket surgeon' to figure out there is likely an issue on track???Maybe, or possibly they can't get the next gear, or snapped a throttle cable, or blew up, or had their mainswitch go TU, etc, etc...

This happened at Sebring. This happened at Mid-Ohio. This happened at COTA. Doesn't matter where.

When are all of you going to stop bitching about the officiating and people that work hard to put on these events and start taking personal responsibility? Personal responsibility for what? Being on the receiving end of getting hit and sustaining damage? Being on the receiving end of really questionable officiating? Being on the receiving end of spending SEVERAL THOUSAND dollars to get a handful of green laps over 4 days?Follow the rules. Simple.

And I don't see the difference between the 'dignity' of winning a race after a protest or after I separate myself from 2nd place by putting a couple of fast cars between us on a yellow flag.

So sick of everyone complaining about the officiating. You sound like hockey parents yelling at the refs. You're lucky you have races to go to. Curious...Were you there?



COTA was great. The region / track workers worked incredibly hard. They didn't volunteer so they could interfere with you winning a plastic trophy. Give me a break...

Pretty much agreed

[Garry Sharp]

I'm sorry. I was writing my post while Northwind was responding also. I kind of said the same thing as him.

[rallaer]

Because the track never went green again. It had no impact on the outcome of the race.

Like the yellow flags - you are missing the point... But what if it did? That person is allowed to skate the rules because he/she got lucky?? What happens next time? I don't know the reason for the protest - but maybe the protestor is also hoping it will teach the driver to pay better attention to the flags?? Who knows? Who cares??? Point missed...

The difference is quite clear to me.

You're right... one is a complainer and one is a cheater...

What happens in the part of the field that can't physically see the green flag and don't have a radio or have one that is working. Some people going racing because they were told on their radio the green waved a half mile ahead and some people not knowing could cause serious problems. It seems the rule may have originally meant go when when you "see" the green flag waving. That would kind of explain the yellows still out on the corners before the start-finish.

Just a thought, I am not a National racer so don't tear me a new one.

You may not be a National racer - but you speak like someone I'd prefer to race with...




It's a plastic trophy. The people that put any value in it are the ones that will do anything to win it.

I, personally, wouldn't want to win a race if I knew I did something against the rules. I also wouldn't want to win a race in a protest. I'd like to think I was good enough to win it on my own, but that's just me. If I pass someone under yellow, I'm not going to wave them past me (because then THEY are breaking the rules). What I will try to do is point them by once the track goes green, and then attempt to pass them legally. Fortunately for me, I have AMAZING eyesight and I see yellow flags (even at COTA), so that hasn't been an issue for me.

Remember why the rule exists in the first place. Safety.

[glenn cooper]

What happens in the part of the field that can't physically see the green flag and don't have a radio or have one that is working. Some people going racing because they were told on their radio the green waved a half mile ahead and some people not knowing could cause serious problems. It seems the rule may have originally meant go when when you "see" the green flag waving. That would kind of explain the yellows still out on the corners before the start-finish.

Just a thought, I am not a National racer so don't tear me a new one.

Not having a radio is solely up to the driver, but to not utilise one is not really a super bright option. Not just for calling starts, but safety related as well: "You are on fire, pull over" "Debris in track over crest of blind hill", etc...

What happens to that part of the field? They typically get left in the dust...

The rule is the rule as posted a few times already - racing resumes when the green is thrown, where ever you happen to be, unless it's VIR and the NCRSCCA throws the green after you have driven under the flag stand! (It happened).

[rallaer]

And yes Glenn, I was there.

I was also at Sebring.

[Daryl DeArman]

You're right... one is a complainer and one is a cheater...

While I wouldn't chose the same labels for them, I got your point, and apparently you got mine.

[glenn cooper]

And yes Glenn, I was there.

I was also at Sebring where you passed me (and two other cars) after 3 yellow corners. Maybe we all had something wrong with our cars... That's the reason you blew past me so fast. Actaully the FB's are so brutally fast... Nah, j/k :O)

I was also upstairs when you protested someone passing you under yellow. As I recall - you won that race (thanks to those officials).

Ahh, now I know who u r!

The difference on the flagging at Sebring, which was pretty clear to the officials, is that in my case they were displayed rather haphazardly by the newb crew (the "real" crew was at Daytona for the 24hr test day), often times being held down/casually, and not even on station in at least one corner. They saw that and realised I had no way of seeing it. The same video shows me maintaining position once I came to a corner where the FCY was PROMINENTLY displayed.

In the vid of the pass for the lead by Beattie, we were approaching a corner with emergency lights on trucks in the road (from the previous lap, and waving yellows flying over the workers heads for the 3 previous corners (Big red trucks in the middle of the track with lights a-blazin' will do that.

As an aside I had no issues with seeing yellows at CoTA, and can't figure out why some folks claim they could not.

As for the FCY's I blew off on the restart, see above posting of green coming out.
In my mind, THAT trumps everything else.

As much confusion as there appears to be about this, I do agree the issue needs addressed

[Wren]

Obviously restart procedure was confusing, with so many experienced drivers not knowing what to do (even now).

If I were in charge, no penalties for passing under yellow on restart, go do a rewrite of the rules regarding this situation, move on. Something like this should be black and white and imo, right now it doesn't seem to be.

The real problem was that the racers knew what to do but the stewards/race control didn't. They were making up the rules as they went.

The situation is black and white when everyone is doing what they should. The problem we are having here is that unfortunately we have to discuss what to do when the scca screws up.

Like the yellow flags - you are missing the point... But what if it did?

Then everything would be completely different. Just like I could never sell winning over a meaningless pass under yellow to my self esteem, I could never feel good about winning by passing under yellow.

[JScarallo]

Race 1 Video of me in the Philadelphia Motorsports DBF1000

First dry laps all weekend after not getting to qualify due to the coil deciding to crap out at the start of my first flyer in qualifying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CehltEPpS_U

[BLS]

Watching that video, I saw what appeared at first to be yellow flags all around the track, then realized it was yellow paint for something. Maybe it was obvious on the track, or could it have caused some confusion with yellow flags?

[JScarallo]

Yes and no. There was yellow paint at the edge of the guard rail everywhere there was a flag station. When the yellow flag was out in that station it was very obvious to tell the difference, atleast in my opinion it was.

[BURKY]

Race 1 Video:

First dry laps all weekend after not getting to qualify due to the coil deciding to crap out at the start of my first flyer in qualifying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CehltEPpS_U

When looking in your left mirror it appears your bodywork is coming off?

[rallaer]

The difference on the flagging at Sebring, which was pretty clear to the officials, is that in my case they were displayed rather haphazardly by the newb crew (the "real" crew was at Daytona for the 24hr test day), often times being held down/casually, and not even on station in at least one corner. They saw that and realised I had no way of seeing it. The same video shows me maintaining position once I came to a corner where the FCY was PROMINENTLY displayed.

Really?... Really??? Wow

So what was my problem? Why was I (and my camera) able to see the FCY clearly in three stations before you passed me ? I must have been going too slow...

I'm going to let you go on this one and not post my video...

Love this... but I'm taking myself out of this conversation for fear that I will not maintain my pleasant composure...

Just know - I know.

[cooleyjb]

IMO and my interpretation of the rules, If a flagstand has a yellow out in your vision it doesn't matter what the starter is doing. That part of the course is still under yellow. You pass under that you pay a penalty. Just like being 1 pound underweight. Rule is a rule.

If I see yellow I treat it as a yellow. There has been a number of times I have seen someone that has been over-zealous warming their tires and has spun in the track. Even if it is a re-start, how do you know the track is safe in front of you. I use the corner stations, plain and simple.

I actually would like to see a rule change adopting the pro format. The track isn't green until you cross the sart line. I have seen some close calls with those that don't have radios and those that react assuming everyone else does.

That's not true in many pro organizations. SCCA Pro for the FE and SRF was Green when the flag dropped, not S/F like GrandAm.

[RSS]

Not having a radio is solely up to the driver, but to not utilise one is not really a super bright option. Not just for calling starts, but safety related as well: "You are on fire, pull over" "Debris in track over crest of blind hill", etc...

What happens to that part of the field? They typically get left in the dust...

The rule is the rule as posted a few times already - racing resumes when the green is thrown, where ever you happen to be, unless it's VIR and the NCRSCCA throws the green after you have driven under the flag stand! (It happened).

How does one go about using a broken radio?

[glenn cooper]

How does one go about using a broken radio?

Remove from rectum and toss from car?

[starkejt]

TIL that Coop's radio has a vibrate function.

[glenn cooper]

Really?... Really??? Wow

So what was my problem? Why was I (and my camera) able to see the FCY clearly in three stations before you passed me ? I must have been going too slow...

I'm going to let you go on this one and not post my video...

Love this... but I'm taking myself out of this conversation for fear that I will not maintain my pleasant composure...

Just know - I know.

However, the officials seemed to agree w/ me for some reason.

Bailing on this uselessness now, gotta get the garage prepped for getting my car back tomorrow night and hopefully will have repaired all the damage from CoTA race 2 and be ready for this weekends Majors at Rd Atlanta.

[Wren]

What happened to you during the race?

How bad was the damage?

[Marshall Mauney]

IMO and my interpretation of the rules, If a flagstand has a yellow out in your vision it doesn't matter what the starter is doing. That part of the course is still under yellow. You pass under that you pay a penalty. Just like being 1 pound underweight. Rule is a rule.

That's not what the GCR says, though. The rules say that racing begins when the green flies. In reverse, you cannot begin racing just because the yellows are dropped. Bottom line is that the rules today state that coming to the start or a restart under FCY, the track is under control of the starter - period.

I agree that we need clarification, but the rule as written is clear. Sufficient? That's another question.

[glenn cooper]

Got blown into and two hits from same car in T1/Lap 1
Extent of damage not known as we had time to pretty much help load the trailer and head to the airport, but left sidepod floor dragged, broken stays, left sidepod top crunched somewhat, left kicker pretty much DOA, left side Fr and Rr suspension possible A Arm tweaks, possible stub axle/upright bearings - car handled like crap in rights from that point on.

It's all on vid, and I will post up as soon as I can purchase a laptop w/ enough HP to play the HD Go Pro vid. I went to two stores today to purchase and was met with "I'm eating my chicken nuggets right now, I'll be with you in a few minutes, and the other store I was clearly wrongly pigmented to receive assistance, so I bailed on both. Fug 'em...

[MAC Racing]

I realize everyone has their interpretations of the rules and it would be nice for someone from SCCA to give an official interpretation but here is mine.

From the GCR.
6.8. RESTARTING A RACE
G... Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when the green flag is displayed.
6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag?A. GREEN FLAG (Solid Green)When displayed, the green flag indicates that the course is clear, and that racing is underway. The green flag is ordinarily shown only by the Starter.
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

The important words to me are in the restart section, "passing may occur". Not that it has to occur and it can occur over all other things. "Racing begins", racing is also going on at all times during the race under green and if there is a local yellow you still have to obey it. So once there is a restart how long do you get to ignore a flag stations?
In the yellow flag section it says in bold SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. The bold and NO PASSING should trump the passing may occur in the restart section.

There are reasons on a restart a corner could stay local yellow or an incident occurs on the restart and the corner goes yellow or another full course yellow. I don't think there should be interpretation built into the rules to say the corner wasn't supposed to be yellow so its OK to pass.

To me NO passing under yellow and passing MAY occur as soon as the green is shown on a restart.

Mat

[cooleyjb]

That's not what the GCR says, though. The rules say that racing begins when the green flies. In reverse, you cannot begin racing just because the yellows are dropped. Bottom line is that the rules today state that coming to the start or a restart under FCY, the track is under control of the starter - period.

I agree that we need clarification, but the rule as written is clear. Sufficient? That's another question.

My interpretation is that once the green flag flies then the course is green but if a yellow is out it is considered a local yellow and therefore no passing.

[iamuwere]

But there are no local double yellows.

[MAC Racing]

But there are no local double yellows.

Couldn't there be another full course yellow?

Mat

[iamuwere]

yep.

[Revs2-12k]

COTA in a nutshell.

Sure, both races were a CF, but it was still an honor to be racing at such an awesome F1 facility.

My vid highlights from Race 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D13iD...ature=youtu.be

Still awaiting " Official " Results for Race 2.....

[jimk1852]

Does anyone happen to have video of the dust up at the beginning of
the group 6 race on Sunday?

[RSS]

How does one go about using a broken radio?

Remove from rectum and toss from car?

Is this done while moving if so it doesn't seem safe! But it does explain that uncomfortable feeling I some times get.

[glenn cooper]

if the race was red flagged? That would explain my (I believe) 8th place finish, even though I did not take the checker after dislodging the battery connection with a "Pruitt" off the T10 inside curbing.
Results go back one lap on red flag if at end of race.

[jose gerardo]

To All My Fellow Competitors,

Thank you all for being there and making it possible for SCCA to consider the venue for the
2014 Runoffs, I personally would like to congratulate all of you on your achievements, it really does not matter if we come first or last, what matters is that we have the health and
financial backing to be there, we should remember that and be thankful for it no matter the results, I for one am happy for the results and it is what makes this level of racing exciting,
what interest would we have in it if we did not have at least a slight chance to win once in a while ?.

God bless you all and I hope to see you all again soon.

Best Regards

Jose Gerardo