CoTA-official thread

[Thomas Copeland]

Be sure to check the Race Report thread for information regarding the JR Osborne penalty as it develops.

[Wren]

If you can't win it on the track...

[reidhazelton]

If you can't win it on the track...

[Tiago Santos]

I think I'd be more surprised if he HADN'T been protested after a win.

[Wren]

No one can see the flagging stations. Every race the announcer was constantly talking about people passing under the yellow. There was so much confusion during the group 5 race that at one point we thought they had grown the green again because there was so much passing. I wonder how many others were protested?

JR took the lead on the second lap and was motoring away when the yellow came out. Who feels good about getting a win this way?

[reidhazelton]

Yup, every race with a yellow guys are "going green" at the end of the last turn while the track is still yellow. Happened to a lot of people from what it sounds like. Greg Crammer is just as confused what guys are doing, I assume there is a poor flag situation.

[Marshall Mauney]

I have only seen flags at three locations and the starter stand. I know where one station is in the esses, but haven't seen any flags there. I think the stations must be outside our sight lines.

[Richard Dziak]

Thomas ......can you provide a link for the race report thread?

[Thomas Copeland]

Richard, it's right here on Apexspeed. Just go up one level.

I just checked and still no official results from yesterday's race.

[mikey]

does the track not have the FIA lighting system? why isn't that in use?

[BERG Racing]

Come to think of it I don't really remember seeing any of the flag stations? In Grand Am we have a "Delfi" system in the car that tells us if there is a yellow flag so I've kind of gotten out of the habit of looking. That's not good at all!

[Thomas Copeland]

Just got my hands on official results.

JR is winner. Loshak 2nd.

1. JR Osborne
2. Lawrence Loshak
3. Glenn Cooper

Rest later. Cars are griding for race 2.

[KevinFirlein]

these farce races is why I didnt bother traveling to Texas to run this event.

[Jnovak]

Actually glad we did not go. I have been keeping an eye on live timing. I have never seen so many yellow flags in so many races EVER. I think there have been more yellow laps than green.

Jay Novak

[KenT]

these farce races is why I didnt bother traveling to Texas to run this event.

So true. When these big races come along, I get very bummed I don't have my car anymore. Then I listen to the race and realize it just makes good business sense to not have one now. I feel bad for all the people that spent so much time and money to prep cars, travel, take off work, and go there just to have 6 or 7 laps of green flag racing over two races.

[Richard Dziak]

The weekend at COTA has to be very disappointing to the drivers in the FB class with only 3 laps of racing on Saturday and only 2 laps of racing on Sunday.

I am sure that the overall costs to be there this weekend overshadows the thrill of the racing. It appears a big disppointment to many.

We will all have to await the feedback from the drivers themselves.

It was however, nice today to have both the live timing and the audio feed of the race.

Hope all drivers have a safe journey home.

Congrats to J.R. Osborne for the Sat win, and to Jose Gerardo, my good friend for his 1st ever FB win, even though both races were so short.

[Thomas Copeland]

Ok. I forgot. This is Texas. Lived here for years and so should have known. It was in the super fine print at the bottom. JR shown finishing first. Then at the very bottom is Car 83 penalized 3 spots. 77 FB 2 positions.

[Steve Bamford]

The flagging stations are really not that bad, just it seems some drivers have some pretty bad eye sight. In group 6 race that just finished I had cars go thru 3 stations & still try to keep racing even though I hand my hand in the air? Really guys??? Do I have X-ray vision & everyone else forgot their contacts today?

[Steve Bamford]

Also I could have protested others to get a win using FCY but really is that winning? More specifically when their passes are of other class cars.

[Wren]

Also I could have protested others to get a win using FCY but really is that winning? More specifically when their passes are of other class cars.

I think everyone but a few know that there is nothing to be proud of in getting a win like this. But, they will probably still celebrate it.

I understand they will be mailing trophies to the winner's homes. I'm not sure what the arrangement is for people to get their dignity back.

[reidhazelton]

So what were all the protests in the second race?

[Steve Bamford]

So what were all the protests in the second race?

Which race group?

[reidhazelton]

Which race group?

The FBs.

Funny, so much cluster there is a question to what group.

[Steve Bamford]

Not sure, group 6 had 3-4 green laps with about a 10-15 minute black flag which occurred on lap 2. They gave us 20 mins of racing after that which we proceeded to turn into a long FCY & eventually a 2 lap sprint to the line.

[KevinFirlein]

The FB's couldnt even take the restart without piling up. With people already bent out of shape I cant imagine it went over well at all

[Wren]

A huge part of the problem is that the stewards threw the green while still displaying the double yellow at the stations leading up to the start finish. Drivers didn't know what was going on so some started racing and some stayed in line.

I heard that the stewards had the nerve to call in drivers and lecture them about how this "wasn't the FIA" and that the SCCA doesn't start racing when the green drops and you are supposed to wait until start/finish to start racing.

G. The Starter will start the race by suddenly and continuously waving
the green flag until all cars have passed the start line if the field is:
1. at a constant slow speed;
2. well bunched and in line; and
3. close enough to the Starter that the majority of the drivers can
see the flag.
Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when
the green flag is displayed.

Stewards, you had ONE JOB! The majors tour is supposed to be the best events with the best stewards? It is time for the SCCA to engage in some soul searching. They owe everyone who entered this trainwreck an apology.

Is it too much to expect the stewards to actually have a clue about what is in the GCR?

Split starts are stupid and dangerous. There should never have been one, especially in group 5.

[Steve Bamford]

Wren,

Many competitors requested the split start & it was highlighted during the drivers meeting as being special. I didn't hear anyone complain until afterwards about the split start idea.

Right or wrong this was the customers idea, at least that is how I understand it.

Everyone starts racing at the appearance of the green flag, not till we cross the line so not sure why anyone would be called in over that.

[Wren]

Wren,

Many competitors requested the split start & it was highlighted during the drivers meeting as being special. I didn't hear anyone complain until afterwards about the split start idea.

Right or wrong this was the customers idea, at least that is how I understand it.

I understand that some people may have been vocal in their support of the split start, but sometimes the people in charge need to do the right thing for safety. Lots of us knew how this would go.

The front of the FB field was substantially faster than the back of the rest of the grid. They caught traffic on lap two.

[Marshall Mauney]

The flagging stations are really not that bad, just it seems some drivers have some pretty bad eye sight. In group 6 race that just finished I had cars go thru 3 stations & still try to keep racing even though I hand my hand in the air? Really guys??? Do I have X-ray vision & everyone else forgot their contacts today?

True. I have video of one PUY. I got the position back when we went green, but..... just not worth the hassle of protesting.

[reidhazelton]

I understand that some people may have been vocal in their support of the split start, but sometimes the people in charge need to do the right thing for safety. Lots of us knew how this would go.

The front of the FB field was substantially faster than the back of the rest of the grid. They caught traffic on lap two.

With that many cars, on a track with a pretty tight and long length of track (from what it looks) I don't think there really was any good solution. No split start, and the F1000 Series cars are very separated and not much of a series at that point.

It was a Runoffs sized event, with likely half the staff and half the time to get all the races in. What ya gonna do?

[KevinFirlein]

the only caveat to the racing on the green rule is on restarts with a big field, just because your crew yells green green green when the lead car gets the flag if the trailing stations havent dropped their double yellows you cannot pass yet. Yes thats the corner captains fault for not calling his yellows to be dropped but it becomes your fault if you pass uner the still standing yellow.

As for the stewards thats always been a problem with scca races, you get different rules at different tracks. I have walked out of drivers meetings because of getting yelled at for rules that didnt exist and I had no intention of wasting my time on getting lectured by someone who didnt know the rules he was shouting about at the time.

[Wren]

It was a Runoffs sized event, with likely half the staff and half the time to get all the races in. What ya gonna do?

I hate to be that guy, but I would follow the GCR.

Split starts are recommended when there is a large differential in
speed or cornering ability between the classes or categories in a
single race group.

That just wasn't the case here. The split start just made sure that the fast DSR and Atlantics were screwing up the FB race, and the opposite of course.

[Marshall Mauney]

I heard that the stewards had the nerve to call in drivers and lecture them about how this "wasn't the FIA" and that the SCCA doesn't start racing when the green drops and you are supposed to wait until start/finish to start racing.

Everyone starts racing at the appearance of the green flag, not till we cross the line so not sure why anyone would be called in over that.

So how do you handle it when your team calls out "Green, green green", but there is still a yellow at the flag station? As noted above, I have this on video when someone goes by me.

I'm confused. Last June at Milwaukee Mile I was told by a steward that you can't follow the flagstands on a restart - only use the starter stand. How do you do that in a field full of guys who may or may not have radios, and are getting the green two turns before the main straight - and the flagstands are still showing double-yellow?

There needs to be some clarification here, IMO.

[KevinFirlein]

no clarification needed. a yellow is a yellow , you cant pass till its dropped. Yes its supposed to be dropped when the flag net calls green but if there is a delay you have to wait. If a guy presents video of the pass you are gonna lose no matter if the green was out at the strart line or not. Seen it countless times

[Wren]

First, I think that it is a shame that we have to spend this much time thinking about what to do when the SCCA screws the pooch, but I guess this is our reality.

Kevin, while you may have seen this end badly for those that pass, my belief is that you may pass when the green waves. The double yellow is for when the course is yellow, and the course is not yellow when the green is waving.

Marshall, the situation is not covered in the GCR. The closest thing is the rule regarding what to do when the green goes.

[Thomas Copeland]

Not one bit of the mayhem I saw this weekend would contribute to the split start.

There are a least a dozen other reasons I would give. But I would also give the track and the local SCCA kudos for trying hard. That they did. No one can complain about the effort they put in.

But top of the list of reasons why some things might have gone sideways would be that this track simply wasn't designed to handle this many competitors. It was designed to handle a couple of dozen competitors and about 20 to 30,000 spectators.

Every driver that took part in this event should consider themselves lucky. Because it just might be that it will be be the only chance any of us that race at this level ever get to compete at this track.

[Mike B]

I'm confused. Wren makes it sound like JR lost the win, but the official results show him in P1: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...turday-gp5.pdf

Did he win or finish P4?

[Thomas Copeland]

It (the official results) says JR finished 1st. That's what threw me at first. I thought they had denied the protest.

But then way down at the bottom (where you rarely look) it says car 83 FB (which is JR) was penalized 3 pos and car 77 FB was penalized 2 pos. I guess down here in the South ya suppose to do your own math.

1-3=4

Edit: I'm also guessing that means car 77 (Mayer) finished 11th and not 9th.


.

[Wren]

I really don't have a clue. It looks like he was penalized, but who cares? Everyone knows who was running faster laps and who was ahead when the yellow came out.

[Richard Dziak]

Things from COTA Group 5 will definitely be sorted out once we listen and hear from the drivers. Their personal input to this situation will shed lots of light from what they saw and what went on from their perpectives.

In any event, as I watched the live timing and listened to the audio of the race, the split start on both days seemed to work out fine. I agree with the other poster that 64 cars on one track was way too many. Also, once there was any kind of incident, the SCCA seemed to drop the yellow flags quickly and any kind of problem on the track took way to long to fix. Other groups like Group 4 had almost 80+ cars (Spec Miata) on the track and seemed to have a clean race overall on Sunday.

Perhaps SCCA and COTA should have used the FIA (F1) lighting Green/Yellow lights on the track that would have been highly visible to all drivers. Perhaps Wren or someone else that was at the track can confirm if the lights were used or not. I understand there where flagging stations only.

In any event, racing 3 laps of Sat and 2 laps on Sunday had to be a major disappointment to group 5 FA, FB, CSR, and DSR owner/drivers. It's hard to actually even call this a race. Winning a race after 2 or 3 laps doesn't make a real good win. It just doesn't prove anything.

Steve Ott seems to have made the best showing moving from last place to such a respectable finish on Sunday.

Can't wait to hear the input directly from the drivers.