CoTA-official thread

[Peter Olivola]

Letter ID Number: #10465
Title: Start/Restart Flags
Class: FB
Request: Please note there is no category for GCR/operational issues and this is not a class specific request. The category and class chosen were done as a reference to the Group 5 incidents at the COTA Majors event.

The current SCCA practice of using double yellow flags on pace and restart laps is fundamentally dysfunctional. In the real world, it is impossible for each station to drop their yellow flags at the moment the starter displays the green flag to start/resume racing. The GCR currently does nothing to resolve the conflict between wording which says racing begins everywhere on track when the starter displays the green flag and the flag rules which state it is not permissible to pass when a corner is displaying a yellow flag of any kind until you are clear of the incident.

This conflict creates needless ambiguity in real world situations. Eliminating the use of full course yellow flags on pace and restart laps would resolve this conflict. In addition, it would provide much clearer communication to the drivers in the event there is a yellow flag situation as going from no flag to yellow flag is a much better attention getter for the drivers.

Specific recommended wording would be: On starts, corner stations will display no flags unless there is an incident that would otherwise require them (and since the GCR is already clear that racing does not begin until the starter displays the green flag there is no need for additional wording to prevent passing.) On restarts, when control has designated the current lap for the restart and when the pace car has turned out its lights, all stations will drop all flags unless there is an incident that would otherwise require flagging. It might be appropriate to reiterate the wording that racing does not recommence until the starter displays the green flag.

The main point of Tom's post seems to be missed here in the discussion: leaving aside who passed whom and whether it was intentional or not and leaving aside whether the corner workers were late in pulling the flags, there is an open question that is still not resolved:

Is the entire course green when the starter displays the green flag?

Either it is or it isnt. That question needs to be resolved one way or the other and the specific rule made clear in the GCR and at drivers' meetings so that everyone will know how to deal with a situation where they hear "green, green, green" in their ears but see double yellow with their eyes.

So which is the better rule?

1. Whole course goes green when start/finish throws the green, regardless of whether a double yellow is still displayed in a corner leading up to start finish?

or

2. Each section of the track remains independently controlled by the corner stations?

If there is a consensus then a request for the rule to be clarified can be made.

[Marshall Mauney]

I really don't understand the confusion about a yellow flag being displayed at the restart. In hindsight it does not make sense and if a yellow flag is displayed it should NOT be a double yellow. However, it is entirely possible that a car could have stalled on track or spun on track during the restart. If that was the case a yellow flag is needed. And also in that case the yellow flag MUST be obeyed. At that point the drivers did not know what the situation was. I believe any yellow flag displayed at a corner station needs to be obeyed, even when I hear green,green,green. Just my 2 pennies.

I disagree. If there is a call for a local yellow, the starter should/will not throw the green.

[DSRDAVE]

Marshall, that is correct if it's a major incident. However, the point I was trying to make is that the drivers at that point in time really did not know if the yellow was warranted or not. I don't believe as an instructor I could advocate ignoring a yellow flag to our students. Thx, Dave.

[Tom Valet]

The GCR says yes, and the rule is clear. The problem only comes in when the other stations are late dropping the double-yellow flags. Dropping them early is not a problem, because racing does not resume after a restart until the green is given at the starter stand.

This whole question can be resolved by simply advising all flaggers to drop the double yellow when the pace car pulls off the track, or when the leader is two turns from the restart point. Once this has happened, drivers may begin racing again ONLY when the green flies; any re-display of yellow is clearly intended to indicate a new incident.

Marshall, in a perfect world you are right, there would be no confusion because all the double yellows would be pulled simultaneously with the green flag waving.

But what if they arent? What is the rule?

Some can argue that the starter's green controls the entire course and others will argue you must obey the yellow. There is no right or wrong answer, we just need to know which of the two possibilities is in fact going to be in operation so that all the racers will be on the same page and know what is right and what is wrong.

People keep saying the rule is clear. Its clear as mud to me.

[Dennis Valet]

For what it is worth, in the F2000/F1600 pro series, the corner stations do not display double yellows on the initial start. On restarts, they all display double yellow until green, at which time they drop (I believe).

My understanding is that on restarts it is necessary to have double yellows because there is a much greater chance that all the cars on track cannot see the starter stand when the green flag is shown. In that situation, a driver only gets his information from the nearest flag stand and he begins racing when he sees the double yellows dropped. For instance, if all the cars do not catch up with the lead group, they need to rely on the nearest corner station to know when they are back under racing conditions. They should not have to wait until the starters stand to see that the track is green.

I know this problem is mostly solved with radios, but the SCCA does not require radios. Even if the SCCA did require radios, it would have to go even further and require monitoring of race control's channel.



While this may not be the "official" rule, and while this may not be clear in the GCR, the way I see it is that if the corner station in front of you is displaying a double yellow, you must obey that corner station, even if your crew is telling you that the track is green. This makes sense to me for a various number of reasons. It certainly would be best to have this clarified in the GCR, but hopefully it is not a decision or situation that should arise too often.

[brownslane]

The GCR says yes, and the rule is clear. The problem only comes in when the other stations are late dropping the double-yellow flags. Dropping them early is not a problem, because racing does not resume after a restart until the green is given at the starter stand.

This whole question can be resolved by simply advising all flaggers to drop the double yellow when the pace car pulls off the track, or when the leader is two turns from the restart point. Once this has happened, drivers may begin racing again ONLY when the green flies; any re-display of yellow is clearly intended to indicate a new incident.

BINGO! Marshall, Peter and Tom Valet get

[Garry Sharp]

So basically what everybody is asking is what do you do when a MISTAKE is made-i.e Green and FCY flags at the same time.

Also, it seems COTA only will really work with an electronic flagging system because that is how it was designed. I was at the F1 race and could see several of the lights. There was NO doubt about the status of the track in those sections and that was from the stands. COTA should have their own electronic system and include it in the track rental. Can you imagine how much shorter this thread would have been if the flagging commands were sent to the stations from a central location at the speed of light? Not even an FB is that fast! I'm sure the system could even be programmed to lock out all combinations of flags that aren't supposed to be out at the same time.

Again, just a thought from an unbiased outside observer.

[KevinFirlein]

you do realize that other then on the original start of the race , the absence of any flags at a station by definition means that station is clear and green. Thats why under the current system on restarts you cant just have station drop the flags ahead of time. My home region , The Washington DC region, has on many multiple occasions restarted races from FCY by doing absolutely nothing but simply pulling in the double yellows. They used to love throwing late race FCY's not using a pace car then on the last lap dropping the yellows in the last turn and creating a drag race to the finish line, if the drivers were paying attention. Some would be and some wouldnt. It created havoc and they kept doing it. They did it to me when I was leading while running a E prod Caterham. Was cruising to the finish with my arm resting on the roll bar then ........oh F--- drop the hammer and go.

It would require rewritting the GCR rules so restarts were handled just like Orginal starts. Regardless of the absence of any flags you cant go until green flies. Of course, despite popular opinion the majority of all club racers which includes regionals and nationals dont use radios or even have a proper crew. So they will just have to wait and go when the guy in front of the goes, which of course is how it use to be done and there was never any of this bitching. Come to think of it , it may just be a good rule.

[Brett Lane]

There was an epic error made on the landline that was installed for F1. It was put in by a very large phone service provider in the US and it was totally a** backwards. Landlines are supposed to function by allowing all people to talk at once. This system only allowed 6 stations or something to be on the same conversation as one another, and even then, only one station could talk at a time. For F1, we used FM radios, believe it or not.

I think that pretty much explains the problem with double yellows not being dropped when the green flag was waved for the restart- if this is true.

[Northwind]

Or do we add a green flag at each corner station that is only displayed for the start or restart lap when the starter gives the green command? Clearly indicates the coarse is green again unles a local yellow is displayed.

[cprevenas]

The best solution would be one similar to what ALMS/IMSA does. When they are going green on a restart, they actually drop all yellows when the lights go out on the pace car. So, at that point, no yellows are out and they can race once the green is shown. In addition, all stations go waving green when the green is shown at start.

A lot of this confusion comes down to every series using different flagging rules. FIA, FIA with some tweaks, SCCA, etc.

[dereklola]

........COTA only will really work with an electronic flagging system because that is how it was designed. I was at the F1 race and could see several of the lights. There was NO doubt about the status of the track in those sections.....................

After an absence of 60 years or so I went to see a modern computerized model railroad this evening (neighbor's basement is full of it). Fascinating to see ALL the signal lights change sequentially around the entire track. Thinking of COTA and being of devilish mind I asked him what would happen if two trains were programmed in conflict - he showed me - basically both signal systems automatically throw up the equivalent of our 'yellow flags'. Of course in this case the same computer also controls the trains!!! Hmmm.

But my point is in this day and age we should have a master system controlling lights round the whole track. Can't happen overnight but we should start moving towards this right now. I first made this point about 15 years ago.

[mousecatcher]

What it DID look like was a local towing agency, used to repoing F150's from the local populace was brought in to do cleanup.

I talked to the driver that recovered my car. They come out of Houston. They were chosen by the track instead of local yokels due to a) previous experience with them from the track safety guy and b) experience recovering race vehicles.

His words.

[glenn cooper]

Just plain ouch.
I guess that goes to show that "previous experience" is not the be-all, end-all it may occasionally be cracked up to be!

[Zcurves]

Does anyone know when they will sort through the mess and post the official results?

[JByers]

I found the answer to my question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFJ-tIjpuZc

[a. pettipas]

I found the answer to my question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFJ-tIjpuZc

Those two were racing waaay too hard under FCY near the end... the blamer repasses the blamee, totally crossed-up on the curbing no less, within clear sight of a flag station displaying caution and intimates that the other guy is wrong...which he is but it appears that one is (almost) as bad as the other, in the context of flag awareness and obeyance.

6:35 had so much potential to be an accident of legendary magnitude, thankfully that didn't happen. The 008 driver can pedal a racecar; not lacking for either car control or commitment.

[mousecatcher]

crazy video. FCY (and multiple PUY past multiple stations) a full 30s before the video "calls" it.

[Zcurves]

Blazing fast, but I agree with many PUY including passing me under local yellow at 6:24. I counted 4 FCY stations starting at 7:37 before he let up. Not to mention the black car, holy smokes!

[Chris Livengood]

Those two were racing waaay too hard under FCY near the end... the blamer repasses the blamee, totally crossed-up on the curbing no less, within clear sight of a flag station displaying caution and intimates that the other guy is wrong...which he is but it appears that one is (almost) as bad as the other, in the context of flag awareness and obeyance.

I agree. If i was aware that we were under FCY and had been passed during I would have let it go, then battled it out after the race with the stewards using my pristine video. You know, instead of racing under yellow. It all seems a little fishy.

[Blair Robertshaw]

Well in the absence or presence of the yellows, man you had to have a huge smile on your face after that race. Good drive, nice patience and after it was over, 22 got what he should have got! Well 4 spots is harsh but he did get moved back.

Good race video, hearts still a pounding.

What were the times of the FA's please guys?

[a. pettipas]

Well in the absence or presence of the yellows, man you had to have a huge smile on your face after that race. Good drive, nice patience and after it was over, 22 got what he should have got! Well 4 spots is harsh but he did get moved back.

Good race video, hearts still a pounding.

The onboard car (Simpson) PUY too with, apparently, no penalty.

Aside from driving the car very well and the great video, how is that fair to the 22 car or anyone else that got nailed for PUY?

[Blair Robertshaw]

I don't have a dog in this hunt but you cannot ignore that 22 passed under yellow, not once but twice!

[Jeff Read]

The guy in the blue car passed 2 cars under yellow(including the 22 car) before the first caution!

[a. pettipas]

.

[a. pettipas]

I don't have a dog in this hunt but you cannot ignore that 22 passed under yellow, not once but twice!

Ummm...yeah. That's pretty clear. No one in their right mind would defend #22 for his actions. Did anyone in this cluster of a race not pass under yellow? That, and some other issues, are what everyone's been talking about over 8 pages.

[Zcurves]

Here's the email I got from the Divisional Steward. I think it's a little harsh compared to what I witnessed other drivers doing. It's a kick in the teeth!

Dear Mr. Pierce,

Upon review of all of the information available to this court of the SOM, including track camera video, timing and scoring data, and your statements made to us via email, we have found that you were in violation of GCR 6.1.1.B. (pass under double yellow flag condition) during the last lap of the Group 5 race on Sunday, March 10, 2013 at COTA.

We are assessing the standard penalty for this particular violation, which is loss of 3 finishing positions in class for that race plus 2 penalty points against your competition license.

You have the right to appeal this decision. Your appeal must be in writing and postmarked (by US Postal Service, UPS or Fedex) within 10 days from the date of this notification. Please see GCR Section 8.4 (located on page 78 of the GCR) for details regarding the appeals process.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to our inquiries regarding this incident. We wish you successful and safe racing in the future.

Best regards,

Joe Gilmore
SCCA Member #357462
Divisional Steward

So, I spend THOUSANDS to participate for the weekend. I drive 22 hours (1372 miles) and use a week of vacation from my job. Our qualifying session is cut short to 15 minutes, our second qualifying session is cancelled, and we may have had 10 laps of green over two races. I pass one car, missed the first FCY station (that was poorly placed in T12 to begin with) and immediately let up. I find my accusor committing the same offense in my earlier video of the race. He missed the station entering T11. NO ONE was driving at FCY speeds and several cars missed multiply FCY stations while passing multiple cars at full speed. The officials screwed the pooch on several occasions (two pace cars, pace car not in front of overall group leader, failure to drop FCY at restart, and failure to report PUY).

AM I ALONE IN THINKING THIS PENALTY IS A LITTLE SEVERE????? To appeal the penalty would mean giving them $175 more and surrendering my license to the Chairman of the SOM before the appeal will be heard.

[racerdad2]

COTA needs track lights everywhere.... BIG ONES !!!

[Wren]

So, I spend THOUSANDS to participate for the weekend. I drive 22 hours (1372 miles) and use a week of vacation from my job. Our qualifying session is cut short to 15 minutes, our second qualifying session is cancelled, and we may have had 10 laps of green over two races. I pass one car, missed the first FCY station (that was poorly placed in T12 to begin with) and immediately let up. I find my accusor committing the same offense in my earlier video of the race. He missed the station entering T11. NO ONE was driving at FCY speeds and several cars missed multiply FCY stations while passing multiple cars at full speed. The officials screwed the pooch on several occasions (two pace cars, pace car not in front of overall group leader, failure to drop FCY at restart, and failure to report PUY).

AM I ALONE IN THINKING THIS PENALTY IS A LITTLE SEVERE????? To appeal the penalty would mean giving them $175 more and surrendering my license to the Chairman of the SOM before the appeal will be heard.

Tim, it is unfortunate, but that is the standard penalty for passing under yellow. GCR 7.4.A.6. Let this serve as your "numbing" to the SCCA. They don't care how much effort you put in, how much money you spend, or how wrong they were.

Don't worry about it too much. There are a lot of drivers in the paddock with penalty points on their license. The appeal is likely a waste of time.

[James Michael]

Hi Tim,

Yea I go the same penalty - oh well. I didn't see the yellow (not very visible for one thing) and I have four cars ahead of me going into a hard braking corner so I missed it.
I mean I had a guy pass me in Race 1 on the backstraight when the double yellow had been shown for half a lap. I was about 10-15 car lengths ahead when I saw it, then over that half lap, he catches up to me then passes me on the backstraight. I thought the corner workers would call this but didn't happen so we finish under yellow and that's the way the race was called.
Next time, I'll be sure to file a protest.
Anyway, I agree with you, it really wasn't much fun - I've had much more fun races at Hallett, MSR Houston and TWS.
Just kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth and I only had to come from Fort Worth.
I guess it was a learning experience, but as least I didn't come in on a wrecker - I have to look at the positive.
I just hope the next race I go to is more enjoyable. I could have taken a nice vacation to Alaska with the money I spent to drive 5 sessions at COTA.

James Michael, Car 87
www.auroraengineer.com

[Zcurves]

I agree. The T2, T11, and T12 flag stations were the worst. I had no problem seeing the rest. You were driving the gold/blue Stohr? We were right there together in Race 2. I recall you having a shunt with a FA in T13 and got by you. At the same time I got passed by John LaBrie. The few laps we had were fun, but I don't think any of us got our money's worth.

[brownslane]

Tim, it is unfortunate, but that is the standard penalty for passing under yellow. GCR 7.4.A.6. Let this serve as your "numbing" to the SCCA. They don't care how much effort you put in, how much money you spend, or how wrong they were.

Don't worry about it too much. There are a lot of drivers in the paddock with penalty points on their license. The appeal is likely a waste of time.

Wren is absolutely right. You need to let this be a sobering moment.And then let it go and move on.

You might want to request a little "off the record" discussion with the Steward....I would plead the case for poor sight lines, the absolute evidence of others perpetrating the same offense....perhaps a "suspended sentence" might be a better option....if you sense "fertile ground" then send in your appeal. I would cut and paste every comment that a driver has posted here that specifically mentions a PUY...I would link every vid that shows a PUY and send it all in.


Has there ever been another race where so many people seemed to PUY? Not rhetoric, I really ask that question; I personally have never heard of so many in one event...let alone it occurred in so few laps.....

Given what COTA was I expected a messy weekend. I expected to hear about "Pit Nazi's" , cars damaged by tow crews, officious nastiness and general disrespect for competitors. What actually transpired was primarily a small group of polite and dedicated officials totally overwhelmed by a huge turnout, coupled with certain inadequacies within COTA itself....

I can pretty well be sure that (if there ever is one!) the next race there will be better organized and a lot of the problems will be addressed. In hind sight I would have suggested that SCCA had staged a lower profile event and limited (yech) the number of participants to a much smaller number. Then some of the bugs could have been worked out.

So, the big question for SCCA is how can they manage restarts. The present system as it was implemented at COTA was broken. The second question is if COTA is committed to making the changes that are needed....

And it really DOES suck when you work so hard just to get a kick in the gonads. As one who wore a white shirt as a race organizer, I feel for those folks who have been trying to sort out the mess as well.

[jose gerardo]

working on it guys !

any feed back ?, I would perhaps like to start a new thread.

regards
Jose Gerardo

[racerdad2]

Great idea, Jose !!!

[JakeL]

Better idea, how 'bout some more fun in-car video to watch instead of a bunch of arguing about the flag problem that I caused?

Race 2 start and first few laps:

http://youtu.be/2Y_UDquRXzg

Video cuts off before I become the Lewis to David's Felipe, so don't get your hopes up.

-Jake

[iamuwere]

working on it guys !

any feed back ?, I would perhaps like to start a new thread.

regards
Jose Gerardo

http://www.racingelectronics.net/ind...ems&item=RSS-3

[Blair Robertshaw]

The "in car" full caution, local caution lights are a huge benefit to all involved. Indy car has the Pro Mazdas run them and I can say first hand that they work great! a ton cheaper (on the site just above this post) than Indy Car, where we paid $1350. not sure what the officials need to employ it but it is a huge benefit to drivers, teams, officials alike.

[JRMarchand]

would be great to have in-car safety lamp. i would like to go there someday, Thanks to all the crews/drivers and to the Texas region for paving the way for others to enjoy, thank you

[crowe motorsports]

The January Sebring Nationals this year was similar to COTA. Race one primarily. So many crashes and so many passes under yellow caused numerous issues that had many with high blood pressure. The passes that occurred under yellow and officiating to manage the situation was poor at best. The race officals were in the weeds with lack of information. Drivers were bringing videos to prove their point. I finished 3rd in race one and later found both 1st and 2nd passed under yellow and 2nd protested 1st for a pass under yellow and was moved to 1st when a FC video (discovered later) showed the car move to 1st actually passed him and other cars under yellow. Passes that actually allowed him to get to the leader. Note: I am not whining because this info was found later after impound and I would not have protested because it was a cluster race, I did not have a radio and I was not running at a 1st place pace but a 2nd place pace.

So I believe the mix of several classes in our group can lend itself to chaos when incidents occur repeatedly. When this happens officials are trying to take a drink from a fire hose and the there are all these videos coming to their attention. I suggest we as drivers quit trying to win the race on the first Green Flag lap and or repeated first green flag restart laps. Lets get going and let consistent green flag laps determine the winner. Otherwise if I was to be officiating, I would demand every corner station to report a yellow pass without exception and results would be determined by corner workers.

And yes I was docked 3 positions at Road Atlanta in 2011 with my competition on my ass and they said I passed the slowest car that qualified (in another class) and I was coming under the bridge with the car hung out and did not see the flag. I was a little busy. I argued with the steward as my competitor on my ass had to have passed as well. He said one more comment and I would need to surrender my logbook (aka Probation). The race the next day, I saw double yellows on the back straight (easily seen) and I was passed by two cars and I was even pointing at the cars with my raised hand to notify corner workers. No foul was reported when I asked the same Steward. They were the judge and jury, so they won. I lost both badly needed points to qualify for the Runoffs and $$.

So! We all need to chill out. Be patient and let's work to decide the race under a full green flag race. Geez, if Spec Racer Fords can do it we can as well. And note: I ran SRF for many years after many years in formula cars and we rubbed a lot more than we do in wings and things.

[jose gerardo]

http://www.racingelectronics.net/ind...ems&item=RSS-3

Wouldn't it be something if our class could pioneer the use of cockpit safety lights in these times of diminishing worker participation at some events , do you think that people would be willing to invest about the cost of a set of tires in this device ?.